Multiculturalism in Canada - Does it Unite or Divide?

[cybercoma]

Unemployment rates are INCREASED by immigration

Really? What about the immigrant that opens a shop and hires people? What about the money that he/she earns and spends in the community to pay someone else's wages? Do you have any research that shows unemployment rates are tied to immigration in any way whatsoever?

[Argus]

You are new so may not have read presious threads that included a study of the prison population of Canada broken down by race. You also missed the refutation of ther Fraser report.

I am not new here and never saw any valid refutation of the Fraser report.

[Argus]

I love how you conflate ethnicity with citizenship without even thinking twice about it. Way to play fast and loose with the conceptual framework of your arguments.

Ethnicity has nothing to do with it. The Chinese, or for that matter, the Dutch, have a society and culture, a national identity which involves how they interract with and around each other, their likes and dislikes, social and political preferences and beliefs, food choices and sports and receration and entertainment etc. You only really understand that by living amongst them for some substantial period of time, preferably with growing language skills.

As I said, I can get a piece of paper that gives me Chinese citizenship, but that's not going to make me any more Chinese than someone without that piece of paper.

[Argus]

Except the number of slices per person keeps growing.

Or does it? Scroll down to 3.1 heading. The first word under it is Chart 4. Click on that. You'll see that real GDP grows and falls, falls and grows, without any regard for immigration.

http://www.bankofcanada.ca/publications/books-and-monographs/why-monetary-policy-matters/3-stability/

[Argus]

Canada has too much land and too much water relative to the rest of the World to not allow the maximum number of immigrants into the country every year. That, to my mind, is just a geo-demographic fact, edit: whether the rest of us like the results or not.

No, we actually don't. A huge chunk of our land is frozen arctic tundra. Nobody lives there or wants to live there other than the inuit. If you're suggesting we send all our newcomers to live in the territories I would suspect that would have an enormous impact on the likelihood of them choosing to come and live here.

[-1=e^ipi]

Sure, on the one hand you criticize Canada's universities, on the other hand you praise it.

No. I just pointed out that there is a large gap in human capital quality between developed and developing nations. Canadian university standards may be lowering and many Canadian universities may suck, but universities in Pakistan suck more.

Guess what, I am sure that some degrees in Pakistan are more valuable than some Canadian degrees.

Sure, if you want to compare a gender studies degree in Canada to an Engineering degree in Pakistan. But for similar types of degrees there is a large human capital quality difference. Do you need me to cite studies that show this to be true?

Either way, I have three points supporting my argument that immigrants are more educated on average than average Canadians. (degrees, citizinship tests, and multiple languages). Isn't it true that first generation Canadians are more educated than the average Canadian?

No, your statement is untrue once you take into account human capital quality.

[cybercoma]

the cultural values and identity of the people of Canada and how likely that individual is to embrace Canadian values.

So let's have a description of these cultural values and the Canadian identity that all native born Canadians share. Edited July 11, 2014 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

real GDP grows and falls, falls and grows, without any regard for immigration.

http://www.bankofcanada.ca/publications/books-and-monographs/why-monetary-policy-matters/3-stability/

Therefore the size of the pizza has nothing to do with the number of people eating it, contrary to your claim that more immigrants is disastrous because it leaves less pizza for native-born Canadians.

[guyser]

Canadian university standards may be lowering and many Canadian universities may suck, but universities in Pakistan suck more.

So is it now " many suck' or is it still they all suck?

Once again, only the USA (by wide margin)Canada , The UK and Swiss have any in the top 20.

Want top 30? Add only Singapore and Japan.

So, do tell us, where are these great Uni's ? Do they know it or is it just you?

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2013-14/world-ranking

Edited July 11, 2014 by Guyser2

[dre]

Really? What about the immigrant that opens a shop and hires people? What about the money that he/she earns and spends in the community to pay someone else's wages? Do you have any research that shows unemployment rates are tied to immigration in any way whatsoever?

I meant to say that EMPLOYMENT rates are increased by immigration.

[carepov]

I think we have a very, very, very few people who would fairly be termed 'xenophobic racist bigots'.

I believe the majority of those who are opposed to immigration simply feel themselves outnumbered and economically threatened by vast numbers of 'foreigners' who look, talk, and act differently than they do. As in point one, people feel more comfortable around those who are, more or less like them. When people suddnely find, in their own home town, that they can no longer find jobs very easily, because they can't speak a foreign language, that stores and restaurants are springing up all around them to cater to a 'foreign' clientelle, they can easily feel confused, helpless, and angry.

There's more than a very, very, very few xenophobic racist bigots in Canada. There are certainly more than there are isolated, non-English-nor-French-speaking, sharia-law-advocating, terrorist-supporting, diseased, fake-education-credential-holding, female-genital-mutilating, immigrants.

Canada's unemployemnt rate is one of the best in the OECD and lower than the US which is very rare historically.

Most of these people would be friendly enough and welcoming towards 'some' newcomers. But I put it to you that feeling threatened by a huge wave of newcomers is a universal sentiment, and in many countries would have resulted in riots by now, not from the newcomers, but from the angry homegrown citizens. That includes all our main source countries, btw. I'd like to see the reaction in a Chinese city if suddenly hundreds of thousands of Africans and Asians started flooding into town, speaking no Chinese, and carrying on in their old ways.

Bingo. Our acceptance of immigrants is part of our values that makes Canada stronger, more united and unique.

Canadians have always, by and large, supported immigration, but I wrote once before that if Pierre Trudeau had gone up on a stage before a crowd of voters in 1970 and told them he was going to bring in so many third world newcomers that they'd be minorities in their own city he'd have been lynched on the spot, or at the very least run out of town on a rail.

Yes probably. Back then we used to beat up on gay people to for the fun of it. I'm sure glad we progressed.

And not all Pintos blew up. Sure, we get a lot of very good immigrants. But a failed immigrant costs a lot in terms of both money and social cohesion and unity. If, for example, 90% of Muslim immigrants oppose terrorism that still means 10% support it, after all. And if we can look at statistics which show that immigrants from one region make half what immigrants from another region do, and are much more likely to be unemployed, then on a macro scale, it seems to make sense to switch our source countries in keeping with those stats.

A car is a bad analogy - they are designed to be manufactured all to the same specifications - people are not.

We should continue to select the best immigrants based on education, employability, language, family connections. There is room for improvement however your suggestion would lead to:

a) missing out on some good immigrants

b.) mar our international reputation as we would be perceived by many people as being racist

Edited July 12, 2014 by carepov

[WestCoastRunner]

We should continue to select the best immigrants based on education, employability, language, family connections. There is room for improvement however your suggestion would lead to:

a) missing out on some good immigrants

b.) mar our international reputation as we would be perceived by many people as being racist

Canada is in need of highly skilled IT workers, especially in Vancouver. In fact, microsoft and other software companies have moved to Canada because we allow a higher number of skilled workers into our country. When these people move to BC and get hired, they add to our economy. These jobs and companies would otherwise not exist if not for our immigration policy. And don't come back with an argument that canadian IT workers are missing out because that is just simply not true. Many people will not move to the BC coast because of the high cost of living. We need workers and the only way we will get them is by hiring foreign workers.

[WestCoastRunner]

I believe the majority of those who are opposed to immigration simply feel themselves outnumbered and economically threatened by vast numbers of 'foreigners' who look, talk, and act differently than they do. As in point one, people feel more comfortable around those who are, more or less like them. When people suddnely find, in their own home town, that they can no longer find jobs very easily, because they can't speak a foreign language, that stores and restaurants are springing up all around them to cater to a 'foreign' clientelle, they can easily feel confused, helpless, and angry.

People don't 'suddenly' find themselves in a foreign environment in their hometown. Immigration happens over a period of time. It is a process, not a one-time event.

I live in Vancouver and most people that I come in contact with whether it's through work, social life or community work do not have the experiences that you speak of. In Vancouver, we are so appreciative of the fact that we can experience foods from around the world, we can have conversations with people from around the world, we can even (cover your ears) have sex with people from other parts of the world.

We have interracial relationships, marriages, children of mixed ancestory. We are not a vanilla city and for the most part the majority of folks here like it just the way it is.

As far as finding jobs, most of the white folks in the lower mainland have no problem finding jobs. It is the immigrants that struggle with finding jobs.

[eyeball]

Name something that's ugly and tell me about why it's ugly.

The expansion of the TFW program under the most right wing government this country has ever seen. Instead of simply explaining to it's base of support that Canada needs more Canadians to keep our economy growing it cynically exploits foreign labour that it can send back once we're done with it. It appeals to some of the other worst Canadian values - catering to wealth and influence while putting the boots to labour. It's a dangerous reckless socio-economic experiment that risks creating animosity in the workplace and society at large. It's not the least bit multicultural and in fact it's simply a metastization of the the mono-culture known as globalism - a one world market that is undermining diversity and unleashing forces that are corroding the social fabric of countries all around the world. It's no wonder so many human beings are embarked on the biggest economic diaspora the world has ever seen.

What's ugliest I think are the sneering comments about lazy entitled Canadians that help support this shit - they're no more caring towards Canadians than they are immigrants. Canada's beauty is only skin deep and it's ugliness goes right to the bone.

Edited July 12, 2014 by eyeball

[dre]

No, you're missing the point. Let's say you have a pie with six slices, and six people eating it. Four more people arrive, but you have a bigger pie. It now has ten slices. The result is no improement for the people who were already there. The same goes for GDP. A bigger economy but more people does not suggest any great improvement in the economic fortunes of existing citizens. A bigger GDP with the same number of people, would, however.

But lets say you can count of four more people arriving every week. In that case the people already there are busy preparing for them. New subdivisions are being created, new roads... new homes are being built... new telecommunications infrastructure is being built. New farm land is being developed. Cars are being manufactured for them to drive, and auto-shops are springing up to repair them. Thats called a growth economy.

Keep the population at 6 and you basically just have subsistance living.

[Remiel]

No, we actually don't. A huge chunk of our land is frozen arctic tundra. Nobody lives there or wants to live there other than the inuit. If you're suggesting we send all our newcomers to live in the territories I would suspect that would have an enormous impact on the likelihood of them choosing to come and live here.

If half of Canada is uninhabitable the other half is still the seventh largest country in the World, and possibly the 6th when you consider much of Australia is also only lightly inhabitable. And still only 225th by population density.

[Argus]

I meant to say that EMPLOYMENT rates are increased by immigration.

Cite?

[Argus]

If half of Canada is uninhabitable the other half is still the seventh largest country in the World, and possibly the 6th when you consider much of Australia is also only lightly inhabitable. And still only 225th by population density.

Almost all Canadians live in a narrow strip within 100 kilometers of the US border. That's also where amost all immigrants go. The rest of the country is lakes, farmland, forest and tundra. I feel absolutely NO obligation to pave over our forests and farmland in order to build cities to accomodate foreigners. Why would I? Why would anyone?

[Argus]

But lets say you can count of four more people arriving every week. In that case the people already there are busy preparing for them. New subdivisions are being created, new roads... new homes are being built... new telecommunications infrastructure is being built. New farm land is being developed. Cars are being manufactured for them to drive, and auto-shops are springing up to repair them. Thats called a growth economy.

Keep the population at 6 and you basically just have subsistance living.

Except all those new people coming in need jobs, so for all the extra jobs produced, you have all these extra people in need of employment, all these people starting up businesses to compete with yours. Lots of economic actvity, sure, but how does it benefit ME, or for that matter, any other particular person who lives here NOW? There are more jobs, but more competition for those jobs. So? The unemployment rate isn't getting smaller, and wages aren't getting bigger.

Absent technological change, how are people better off now than they were in the 1970s? Does all this 'economic growth' simply keep us running in place? How does it make Canada a better place to live than Germany or France or Belgium?

[Argus]

The expansion of the TFW program under the most right wing government this country has ever seen. Instead of simply explaining to it's base of support that Canada needs more Canadians to keep our economy growing it cynically exploits foreign labour that it can send back once we're done with it. It appeals to some of the other worst Canadian values - catering to wealth and influence while putting the boots to labour. It's a dangerous reckless socio-economic experiment that risks creating animosity in the workplace and society at large. It's not the least bit multicultural and in fact it's simply a metastization of the the mono-culture known as globalism - a one world market that is undermining diversity and unleashing forces that are corroding the social fabric of countries all around the world. It's no wonder so many human beings are embarked on the biggest economic diaspora the world has ever seen.

What's ugliest I think are the sneering comments about lazy entitled Canadians that help support this shit - they're no more caring towards Canadians than they are immigrants. Canada's beauty is only skin deep and it's ugliness goes right to the bone.

Okay, so you weren't talking about any of the conversation HERE then?

I disagree with your belief the TFW program is designed to keep the economy growing. I believe it's designed to keep wages down, and as a sop to businesses which have outright lied to the government about the availability of employees in Canada in order to get cheaper, more biddable foreign workers. As the Post mentioned the other day, with over a hundred thousand unemployed in New Brunswick why do they have to bring in foreign workers to work in a chocolate factory? Answer, because the factory doesn't want to raise wages.

But as to that 'sneering, entitled Canadians' there is a legitimate concern with situations like this, that some Canadians have gotten used to repeated employment insurance and find it easier than working at lower paying jobs.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Argus

[Argus]

People don't 'suddenly' find themselves in a foreign environment in their hometown. Immigration happens over a period of time. It is a process, not a one-time event.

I live in Vancouver and most people that I come in contact with whether it's through work, social life or community work do not have the experiences that you speak of. In Vancouver, we are so appreciative of the fact that we can experience foods from around the world, we can have conversations with people from around the world, we can even (cover your ears) have sex with people from other parts of the world.

We have interracial relationships, marriages, children of mixed ancestory. We are not a vanilla city and for the most part the majority of folks here like it just the way it is.

As far as finding jobs, most of the white folks in the lower mainland have no problem finding jobs. It is the immigrants that struggle with finding jobs.

Ah yes, foreign restaurants. You are SOOO happy with foreign restaurants.

I've been to your city. Your depiction of everything being all love and ice cream is not reality. There are lots of interracial tensions and a lot of people don't like this influx of newcomers.

And no, it doesn't happen overnight, but it does happen in the lifetime of the people who are living there. I grew up in Ottawa and Montreal. The first non-white face I ever saw in school was in grade 8. He was Lebanese, and I had no idea what he even was since I was completely unacquainted with non-whites up until that time. Have you seen what a school looks like today?

Tell me, how do you think Vancouverites would have responded in 1970 if Trudeau had told them he was going to bring in so many Asian immigrants they would become the majority? Do you think he would have been enthusiastically applauded?

Edited July 12, 2014 by Argus

[Argus]

So let's have a description of these cultural values and the Canadian identity that all native born Canadians share.

If you remove the term 'all' we could do that, but it doesn't sound like you realy have much of an interest in an honest conversation. You're from that school of thought which says there is no such thing as a Canadian culture and the term "Canadian" is merely a legal reference to anyone with the proper paperwork, correct?

[Argus]

There's more than a very, very, very few xenophobic racist bigots in Canada.

Let me guess, they're all hiding somewhere?

Canada's unemployemnt rate is one of the best in the OECD and lower than the US which is very rare historically.

Actually, the US rate is lower, but our unemployment rate is irrelevent except as a standard we can use to measure the unemployment rate of newcomers against to determine the success ratio.

Bingo. Our acceptance of immigrants is part of our values that makes Canada stronger, more united and unique.

To a point.

Yes probably. Back then we used to beat up on gay people to for the fun of it. I'm sure glad we progressed.

Maybe you did but I never heard anything about gay bashing back then. And what you're neglecting to understand is all those people you accept would have lynched Trudeau for wanting to make them into minorities in their own city -- most of them are still there. And unlike you, they're not all happy about it, and that's understandable.

A car is a bad analogy - they are designed to be manufactured all to the same specifications - people are not.

Immigrants are a commodity, brought here for a purpose, in the same way employers hire employees. There is a reason employers are impressed with graduates of the best schools and collegs, and less impressed with graduates of poorer schools and colleges. They can be fairly confident in what they're getting with the former. Sure, there might be great engineers/doctors/lawyers from some podunk university, but they are much more confident those from Harvard and Yale will know their stuff.

We should continue to select the best immigrants based on education, employability, language, family connections. There is room for improvement however your suggestion would lead to:

a) missing out on some good immigrants

b.) mar our international reputation as we would be perceived by many people as being racist

You're aware that Quebec does this, right? It specifically selects immigrants it believes will be most compatible with its culture, meaning from French speaking countries. Missing out on immigrants? Any time you move your area of selection you miss out on some great immigrants while getting new great immigrants.

We already do our best to select immirants based on the above. But as the governments own statistics are showing, despite our selection process, people from certain parts of the world are far more economically successful than immigrants from other parts of the world. This simply isn't deniable. And we don't owe the world a thing insofar as who we take in goes. The purpose of immigration is to benefit US.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Argus

[Argus]

Canada is in need of highly skilled IT workers, especially in Vancouver. In fact, microsoft and other software companies have moved to Canada because we allow a higher number of skilled workers into our country. When these people move to BC and get hired, they add to our economy. These jobs and companies would otherwise not exist if not for our immigration policy. And don't come back with an argument that canadian IT workers are missing out because that is just simply not true. Many people will not move to the BC coast because of the high cost of living. We need workers and the only way we will get them is by hiring foreign workers.

And what is this in aid of? Has anyone complained about the immigration of skilled IT workers?

According to the government, the average earnings for an immigrant from Asia is under $20,000. I put it to you that the logical conclusion is that while we do indeed bring in some nifty IT workers from Asia the majority of immigrants from Asia are unskilled, and wind up working, if they work, in very low paying jobs.

[WestCoastRunner]

While I do enjoy diversity in Canada, I have a problem with cultures that use their religion to stifle and restrict women's rights within their own communities. I think that Canada should do more to educate immigrants of our liberal democracy and the rights of women in Canada.