What unites Canadians?

[The_Squid]

He seems to have more in common with Americans. Why not go south? A person who feels no sense of kinship with Canadians would be better off going away and finding a people he likes better.We'd be better off too.

Your arguments are bizarre.

I didn't say I have no kinships with Canadians.

I didn't say I like all Americans better than Canadians.

I didn't say I have more in common with Americans.

You should maybe re-read my post and don't read into it....

[Big Guy]

I have watched how people react to government and media prodding on things like multiculturalism for decades, and have noted this sort of smug sense of confidence in those whose weak minds are simply empty holes which obediently regurgitate whatever the CBC and the Heritage Ministry pour down on them. No thinking required. Must be so peaceful for them.

The British Prime Minister has admitted multiculturalism has been a huge failure.

The French Prime Minister has admitted multiculturalism has been a huge failure.

The Nordic countries are now backtracking on their own multiculturalism after discovering, like the British and French, that they now have large native born citizens who bear them little love, do not feel part of them, and have sympathies elsewhere.

Canada, fortunately, has done much better, almost entirely because people like me have strenuously objected to much about multiculturalism, and tried to push things more towards the melting pot, towards where newcomers blend into the mainstream and become part of us, rather than sitting on the outskirts in the quaint ethnic villages the Left so cherishes.

If the mindless set had been allowed to get their way and we'd fully implemented the kind of multiculturalism they have in other countries we too would have riots in the streets now.

But you wouldn't know anything about that. Absent of almost all information, you simply puff out your chest in obnoxious and undeserved pride and call everyone who doesn't agree with your dedication to multiculturalism a bigot.

To reply to your comment I have to check that we are discussing the same thing. My understanding of multiculturalism is;

"Multiculturalism" is the co-existence of diverse cultures, where culture includes racial, religious, or cultural groups and is manifested in customary behaviours, cultural assumptions and values, patterns of thinking, and communicative styles."

The co-existence of diverse cultures is not an experiment which can be deemed as "working" or "not working”. It is the result of a conscious federal immigration policy. It is also the reality in Canada to-day. I believe that it is a strength that unites us far more than some people feel it divides us – that is the theme of the OP – is it not.

There are some in Canada who are isolationists and some who are just plain bigots. Both groups oppose multiculturalism but for different reasons. Sectarian thinking is a legitimate but unproductive attitude that has been used too often to rationalize an individuals weaknesses and failures.

Multiculturalism is a fact in Canada, a fact that unites us as different from most nations in the world and a strength that will keep us united.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Big Guy

[Bonam]

Multiculturalism is a fact in Canada, a fact that unites us as different from most nations in the world and a strength that will keep us united.

Really? Canada barely stayed united by a thread (1% vote difference), and that was just 2 cultures (Quebec vs English Canada). Hundreds of historical and current examples illustrate the strife created by dissimilar cultures co-inhabiting under the umbrella of a single state. Multiculturalism is likely to come back and bite Canada in the ass once various groups that are in violent conflict with one another reach critical mass here. Within a generation there's a good chance we'll see Sunnis and Shiites fighting bloodily over Toronto neighborhoods. For all of Canada's good intentions, it does not have the power to make people forget their millenia-old hatreds and blood feuds.

And to Argus: consider how divided Canadians are over the idea of multiculturalism, as just one example. Everyone thinking alike? Hardly.

[Bryan]

Multiculturalism is NOT uniting. It is divisive. It says "hey look at how many separations in society we have". Trying to be multicultural is one of Canada's biggest weaknesses.

[August1991]

....

Interesting ... Charter of Rights and health care ... I really thought hockey would win!

I suppose sometimes hockey divides us too, depending on who's playing who.

Anybody think there are things missing?

Missing? Absolutely.

Most Canadians feel that, as individuals, they are better off as Canadians than as non-Canadians. That feeling is what unites us.

As to the other list items, IME, the only names that all Canadians know are hockey players and federal politicians. Everyone in Quebec knows Joe Clark and Wayne Gretzky and everyone in Alberta knows Pierre Trudeau and Guy Lafleur.

But as to anything else, I don't see much. Most people in BC have never heard of, uh, Coeur de Pirate and most people in Quebec have never heard of, uh, Gordon Pinsent. So what? We're a blingual state with no official, state-promoted culture. IOW, Canada is multicultural.

=====

At the risk of crossing the Godwin point, Hitler used to ask such questions: "What unites the German-speaking people?" Well, Canada is a geographic term - like the equator. We are united because we live together well, but that's all.

Edited July 1, 2014 by August1991

[Argus]

Immigrants in general are not anything like the way you want to characterize them.

How would you know?

[Argus]

To reply to your comment I have to check that we are discussing the same thing. My understanding of multiculturalism is;

"Multiculturalism" is the co-existence of diverse cultures, where culture includes racial, religious, or cultural groups and is manifested in customary behaviours, cultural assumptions and values, patterns of thinking, and communicative styles."

In other words, you don't know anything about multiculturalism. You've simply been told it's a good thing, and blandly accept that as you accept whatever else you're told is good. No thinking required.

The co-existence of diverse cultures is not an experiment which can be deemed as "working" or "not working”. It is the result of a conscious federal immigration policy.

Really? So anything which is a federal policy cannot be seen as working or not working? All federal policies are perfect?

It is also the reality in Canada to-day. I believe that it is a strength that unites us far more than some people feel it divides us – that is the theme of the OP – is it not.

How can you be united with people who don't speak your language, don't care to, have a culture which is antithetic to our value system, and look down their noses at you?

The full bore multiculturalism as practiced on certain European countries focused on assuring everyone that all cultures were the same, none better than any others, and helping the immigrants to retain their cultures, providing money and assistance for cultural festivals, native language training, etc. What it essentially did in places like France, Britain and Sweden was to tell the immigrants "Be happy to be foreigners. Stay foreigners." And they did. There are now no-go areas in Britain, France and Sweden for police and other government workers, and regular race riots by these ethnic groups who feel little affinity with their alleged countrymen.

Fortunately, the enthusiasm for such policies was tempered in Canada by people with more common sense (Ie, by people like me, not people like you), and so our government multicultural policies weren't as broad or deep.

Now don't get me wrong, I know immigrants from some pretty wretched places who come here and rejoice in being Canadian. Their enthusiasm for being Canadian is unbounded, and they do everything they can to fit in, to learn our language and our ways, absolutely determined that their children will be 100% Canadian. I welcome such people with open arms.

Then there are the other kind. These are the immigrants who are determined to cling to their foreign cultures, and to raise their children in it, to send their children home regularly, to school them in their native language and ways, and to procure a mate for them when they come of age from their original homeland. They sneer at what they call the immoral ways here, much like the Khadrs did, who insisted they didn't want their children going to Canadian schools or being raised in such a miserable and contemptibly immoral place. Such people should be sent back home, all of them. If I had my way none would have ever been admitted in the first place.

There are some in Canada who are isolationists and some who are just plain bigots.

And some who are just plain smarter than you are, and who can look to the future and the changes present policies bring, who read a lot, who study history while you're playing video games, and who make thoughtful determinations about what's in this country's interest while you simply accept whatever you're told.

[monty16]

How would you know?

Ask any decent law abiding Canadian, only those with a chip on their shoulder would hate those of Chinese heritage or of the Mulim religious persuasion. I think you're confusing Canadians for Ameericans who are schooled from the cradle to hate others who are different.

Happy Canada day fellow Canadian!

[Argus]

At the risk of crossing the Godwin point, Hitler used to ask such questions: "What unites the German-speaking people?" Well, Canada is a geographic term - like the equator. We are united because we live together well, but that's all.

And would you say the same about Quebec? I'm thinking that's a big NOPE!

Quebec, of course, has a rich culture and are a unique people!

You don't know anything more about Canada outside Quebec than Bush Cheney does.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Argus

[Argus]

Ask any decent law abiding Canadian,

I did. They said you were completely wrong.

[monty16]

I did. They said you were completely wrong.

I'm sorry about your anger but you're not going to bring me down to your level. So happy Canada day again! And here's hoping you'll get over your obvious hate for Chinese people and Muslims. It's really quite irrational you know.

Smile! Be happy!

[Argus]

I'm sorry about your anger but you're not going to bring me down to your level.

Boy, you'd need an aerial crane to get up to my level.

[-1=e^ipi]

We pretty much do. The bulk of us anyway. You're right that Quebecers don't share our language - thus the continuing threat of separation.

In Quebec they speak French, in Richmond BC, Chinese (Cantonese) is arguably the most common language. In Nunavut, it is Inuktitut. It's absurd that you would use language as something that unites Canadians.

So what if your ancestors weren't here a hundred years ago? You grow up in the same pack, the same group, the same tribe, having many of the same experiences (or similar) and while there will always be variations, there tends to be a general sense of who and what we are and what we believe and that we are together for the ride.

You realize that over 20% of Canadians of foreign born (pretty much the second highest for developed countries after Australia, excluding city-states like Hong Kong)? And this is much higher for the younger population. Over 20% of the country is Francophone. 5% is native. I could go on. There is no common history that unites Canadians.

Value set into which newcomers need to be drawn.

What value set? because I see a lot of disagreement among Canadians about values. Furthermore, with the recent large influx from Islamic countries, there is a growing population in Canada that want to impose Sharia (which is at odds with most of the rest of the population).

You're completely wrong. Oh, on an individual level, people can vary widely from the mean, but there are telling differences between the way Americans think, and the way Canadians think.

If intra-country variation is greater than inter-country variation, I think that is a good indication that nationality is not a good indicator of how people think.

[Argus]

ALL people that immigrate somewhere do so because they think they'll find a better life in the place they are going, not because they feel an innate loyalty to the new place.

No one is going to feel any innate loyalty to a new country immediately. But if you're not willing to wholeheartedly embrace this country and its people and want to become one of them I don't want you, and won't ever accept you're a real Canadian.

As I said, we should make it MUCH harder to gain citizenship.

[-1=e^ipi]

I believe that one of the factors is our acceptance of multiculturalism. About 40% of Canadians are of the first or second generation. While there are a few who are still bigots the vast majority embrace the idea of and the strength of the mixture of cultures and the diversity of experiences in other countries.

How can multiculturalism be something that unites Canadians if there is a significant portion of the population that disagrees with it?

Furthermore, if multiculturalism is good, then does that mean that a country like South Korea is inferior to Canada because it is culturally homogeneous?

Multiculturalism is neither good nor bad, and is not something that unites a country.

[-1=e^ipi]

Canada, fortunately, has done much better, almost entirely because people like me have strenuously objected to much about multiculturalism, and tried to push things more towards the melting pot, towards where newcomers blend into the mainstream and become part of us, rather than sitting on the outskirts in the quaint ethnic villages the Left so cherishes.

I don't think this is why immigration has been relatively successful in countries like Canada or Australia compared to Britain, France or Scandinavia. I think it is more to do with having a more diverse immigration make up (we get a higher percentage from East Asia, India, Philippines, etc. and less from Islamic countries) and also because Canada & Australia have a longer history of immigration so are culturally more used to it.

[Argus]

In Quebec they speak French, in Richmond BC, Chinese (Cantonese) is arguably the most common language. In Nunavut, it is Inuktitut. It's absurd that you would use language as something that unites Canadians.

Would a separatist sentiment ever have risen in Quebec if they all spoke English? You know it wouldn't. A common language unites people. Separate languages divide people.

The immigrants in BC need to learn English. If they don't, you're going to see a strong separatist sentiment rising there too as their numbers rise.

You realize that over 20% of Canadians of foreign born

Are we counting all those "Canadians" who live in Lebanon and Hong Kong? Again, as I said, no commonality of language and culture means they are not part of the mainstream and have little loyalty to Canada.

What value set? because I see a lot of disagreement among Canadians about values.

How many of them want to take up arms against the government over their differences? How many of them want to run rampant through the neighborhoods where other people live, burning and killing because they're different? How many of them want to use force on those who don't share their view of morality or religion?

What are the odds that a native born Canadian will vote for someone just because they have the same ethnic background or religion as they do, as opposed to, say, a "new" Canadian?

Furthermore, with the recent large influx from Islamic countries, there is a growing population in Canada that want to impose Sharia (which is at odds with most of the rest of the population).

You might have noted my opposition to continued immigration from Muslim countries...

If intra-country variation is greater than inter-country variation, I think that is a good indication that nationality is not a good indicator of how people think.

We and the US have largely the same language and religions, and due to the prevalence of US media and the continued back and forth movement across the border, a value set which has many similarities with them. Despite all that our cultural differences are strong in terms of those items I've previously mentioned.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Argus

[-1=e^ipi]

Immigrants in general are not anything like the way you want to characterize them. Most by far come to Canada and make good Canadians. That includes Chinese people and Muslims. Please stop expressing racist and ethnic hate on this forum. It's objectionable and should be stopped, if not by this forum's moderators then by decent Canadians who shouldn't have to hear it.

Yes Argus! How dare you have a differing opinion from the majority of the country! Clearly you must be labeled a bigot and be silenced! Decent Canadians are too good for freedom of speech! Someone's feelings might get hurt!

*sarcasm*

[Argus]

I don't think this is why immigration has been relatively successful in countries like Canada or Australia compared to Britain, France or Scandinavia. I think it is more to do with having a more diverse immigration make up (we get a higher percentage from East Asia, India, Philippines, etc. and less from Islamic countries) and also because Canada & Australia have a longer history of immigration so are culturally more used to it.

To some degree, but Australia has had trouble, as well, mainly with Muslim immigrants, and a number of people are now turning their backs on the old failed multiculturalism policies.

[-1=e^ipi]

I believe that it is a strength that unites us far more than some people feel it divides us

So is Canada more united than South Korea? Because of our multi-culturalism vs their mono-culturalism?

There are some in Canada who are isolationists and some who are just plain bigots. Both groups oppose multiculturalism but for different reasons.

And then you get people that think multiculturalism is neither good nor bad and also think that it isn't good to label objections to multiculturalism as bigoted.

[-1=e^ipi]

Most Canadians feel that, as individuals, they are better off as Canadians than as non-Canadians. That feeling is what unites us.

Idk, I think most of use would be better of if we were born in Norway.

who study history while you're playing video games

To be fair, you can learn a lot of history from video games. The total war series are really good.

[-1=e^ipi]

Would a separatist sentiment ever have risen in Quebec if they all spoke English? You know it wouldn't. A common language unites people. Separate languages divide people.

Yes, which is why it is bizarre that you would list language as something that unites us. Did I misinterpret you?

The immigrants in BC need to learn English. If they don't, you're going to see a strong separatist sentiment rising there too as their numbers rise.

To be honest, I don't care what language immigrants speak as long as they are productive members of society.

How many of them want to take up arms against the government over their differences? How many of them want to run rampant through the neighborhoods where other people live, burning and killing because they're different? How many of them want to use force on those who don't share their view of morality or religion?

So you are saying that our lack of riots and disorder is what unites Canadians?

You might have noted my opposition to continued immigration from Muslim countries...

Yes, which is why you saying that Canadians are united by their values seems inconsistent.

Despite all that our cultural differences are strong in terms of those items I've previously mentioned.

What cultural differences? Both countries are basically the same.

[Argus]

Yes, which is why it is bizarre that you would list language as something that unites us. Did I misinterpret you?

I wsan't counting Quebec, of course.

To be honest, I don't care what language immigrants speak as long as they are productive members of society.

Without a common language, there is division, and no sense of brotherhood or kinship, no sense of belonging. If immigrants retain their old languages they will retain their old cultures and their old ties to their old countries.

So you are saying that our lack of riots and disorder is what unites Canadians?

I am saying that in many, many (most) countries, there is no concept of compromise or acceptance of different viewpoints, to the point that when people disagree, violence arises. When groups disagree, immense violence arises.

Say what you will about all the people who hate Harper. None of them would support a coup to put their own political favorite in his place. Such a thing would just be too dramatically against our cultural history and values. We don't do political violence here. We don't do riots (except for the occasional drunk hockey punks.

Yes, which is why you saying that Canadians are united by their values seems inconsistent.

The bulk of English Canadians, if you prefer.

What cultural differences? Both countries are basically the same.

If you leave aside the religious element, the guns, the racism, the individualism down south, and our belief in strong government, among other things.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Argus

[Big Guy]

In other words, you don't know anything about multiculturalism....

... and some who are just plain smarter than you are, and who can look to the future and the changes present policies bring, who read a lot, who study history while you're playing video games, and who make thoughtful determinations about what's in this country's interest while you simply accept whatever you're told.

Thank you for your reply. I now better understand your sense of tolerance for opposing opinions and other diverse cultures. You certainly seem to have a rather unique opinion of yourself.

The world is becoming a global village and Canada has taken a head start. There will always be sectarians, isolationists and bigots who will try to rationalize their fear of other cultures by believing that they are somehow smarter or better informed than others. It gives them an excuse for their own failures and disappointments. I envy them. They must find solace in believing that they are smarter and better than others.

Meanwhile, the realists observe as the world gets smaller, economies intertwine even more closely and they learn to adapt to the inevitable.

Happy Canada Day !

[-1=e^ipi]

I wsan't counting Quebec, of course.

I'm confused. Since when did Quebec cease to be part of Canada?

Without a common language, there is division, and no sense of brotherhood or kinship, no sense of belonging. If immigrants retain their old languages they will retain their old cultures and their old ties to their old countries.

Yet there are many stable multi-lingual countries such as Switzerland...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that immigrants shouldn't learn languages, just that learning English or French isn't the only priority.

Also, I would not be opposed if Chinese became Canada's 3rd national language.

Say what you will about all the people who hate Harper. None of them would support a coup to put their own political favorite in his place. Such a thing would just be too dramatically against our cultural history and values. We don't do political violence here. We don't do riots (except for the occasional drunk hockey punks.

Idk, I know a number of people that would support people that want to blow up the Northern Gateway Pipeline if it starts construction.