Chemo Or Indigenous Treatment For Eleven Year old?

cybercoma · May 17, 2014

Geez, then why are you arguing with me......

Because you'er speaking in absolutes. Children can refuse medical treatment. People do have bodily autonomy. You're saying that they don't.

WestCoastRunner · May 17, 2014

Because you'er speaking in absolutes. Children can refuse medical treatment. People do have bodily autonomy. You're saying that they don't.

This is silly. I was addressing the issue of the child refusing treatment. I was not discussing bodily autonomy.

WestCoastRunner · May 17, 2014

This is silly. I was addressing the issue of the child refusing treatment. I was not discussing bodily autonomy.

And I should have added 'not being mature enough to refuse treatment'. I was talking about her case in particular.

Big Guy · May 17, 2014

Some people may argue that the mere fact that someone wants to die is an indication that they are mentally ill. I believe that when someone attempts suicide then they are "detained" and given a mental evaluation.

"New data shows that suicide remains a major cause of premature and preventable deaths in Canada.

According to data released by Statistics Canada on Wednesday, of the approximately 238,000 deaths in Canada in 2009, 3,890 were suicides.

Those deaths alone equal around 100,000 years of potential life lost, said StatsCasn.

...

Mental illness remained the most important risk factor for suicide, as more than 90 per cent of people who took their own lives had some form of mental or addictive disorder."

http://globalnews.ca/news/270023/suicide-remains-major-cause-of-preventable-death-in-canada-statscan/

WestCoastRunner · May 17, 2014

Some people may argue that the mere fact that someone wants to die is an indication that they are mentally ill. I believe that when someone attempts suicide then they are "detained" and given a mental evaluation.

"New data shows that suicide remains a major cause of premature and preventable deaths in Canada.

According to data released by Statistics Canada on Wednesday, of the approximately 238,000 deaths in Canada in 2009, 3,890 were suicides.

Those deaths alone equal around 100,000 years of potential life lost, said StatsCasn.

...

Mental illness remained the most important risk factor for suicide, as more than 90 per cent of people who took their own lives had some form of mental or addictive disorder."

http://globalnews.ca/news/270023/suicide-remains-major-cause-of-preventable-death-in-canada-statscan/

I would like to hear your thoughts on these matters Big Guy. You initiate these topics but I don't see you taking a stand. It would add some dynamics to the conversation if you could add your own personal thoughts. It's great that you are encouraging topics to discuss but perhaps you could state your opinion at the beginning.

Big Guy · May 17, 2014

I would like to hear your thoughts on these matters Big Guy. You initiate these topics but I don't see you taking a stand. It would add some dynamics to the conversation if you could add your own personal thoughts. It's great that you are encouraging topics to discuss but perhaps you could state your opinion at the beginning.

Thank you for your interest. I try to post on controversial issues - issues to which there are many sides and nuances. There are a number of well informed individuals who post to this board, have excellent research skills and opinions based on facts and their particular vision of our society. I post to learn. Generally I post to read others points of view to challenge my initial thinking before it becomes part of my permanent view. I believe that there are no "correct" opinions but there are informed and uninformed opinions.

Once most sides of an issue have been aired then I can be comfortable with my own. Sometimes I share it sometimes I do not. I would prefer that those interested in the same issues as I, comment on the issue, not on my opinion at the start of discussion. It is too easy to slip into discussing the poster rather than the issue. That is neither informative or productive. I do not think you are able to see very much of the world if you are looking into a mirror.

Edited May 17, 2014 by Big Guy

Rue · May 17, 2014

First off I find Boges comment referring to Jews questionable. It suggests two things; I-that we Jews are treated differently with such issues and ii-our religion instructs us to reject Western medicine approaches and turn over our lives to faith.

Both are incorrect assumptions and the former in my opinion lends to the appearance Boges was engaging in an odious inference we Jews are given privileges others are not and the latter displays his complete ignorance as to Judaism and what it says about the death process.

In actual fact there are Christian sects such as the Christian Scientists, 7th Day Adventists, Jehova's Witnesses,Mormons, the Amish, certain evangelical sects, may advise their followers to shun Western medical interventions in all kinds of situations including blood transfusions or chemotherapy but they do not punish their followers if they choose Western approaches.

Judaism does not. For that matter Judaism, Christianity and Islam are pretty much identical in that they do not provide a black and white approach. They all state one is not expected to follow their religious doctrine so blindly that it deliberately inflicts pain and suffering.

For that matter HInduism has the similar approach as does the Buddist philosophy and Taoist and Bahaii approaches. No one in these faiths demands a specific and rigid approach to dealing with death issues. They are fluid and open ended.

In this case this family is faced with the legal issue we are all going to be faced with and that is, when we face a life, where the only way to continue to live will be under circumstances of extreme pain and suffering-must we continue to live like that?

The Senate completed a full study on euthanasia laws. It sits gathering dust. They suggested we follow the same laws now in place in Washington and Oregon. Go look them up. The report sits gathering dust because our politicians do not want to touch the issue.

In this specific family situation they actually have a legal advantage in that the Charter of Rights specifically states aboriginal laws and customs are equal not inferior to any other laws in this country and as such can not be superceded by other laws.

I would contend if this issue was forced and it went all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada the wishes of this family would prevail as their decision to follow aboriginal faith healing is enshrined in the Charter,

In the case of aboriginal customs, death is a part of life. the mind, body and soul are all treated not just the physical symptoms and there is already legal precedent that patients who are dying or have cancer have the right to be treated by Shayman and its recognized by Western doctors as a legitimate and valuable adjunct to traditional medical approaches and that is also a factor in the family's favour.

In this specific case the hospital is required by law to notify Children's Aid because the child is a minor meaning their parents are assumed to be the guardian to make the life decisions and since there is a method to keep the child alive and the parents disagree with it, It places the hospital under the obligation to then notify Children's Aid who must ask for another government appointed guardian other than the parents so as to present both sides of the arguments. It wouldn't surprise me at all of the actual treating physicians and hospital respect and honour the family's approach but have their hands tied by the law

Boges is just dead wrong in what he said about the parents. They like any parent faced with a child dying from an acute cancer that has no cure must ask themselves, is it worth my child staying alive if it exposes her to pain and suffering and no quality of life?

We all will face that question.

Mr.Latimer faced that question in Saskatchewan. His child as born with the limited i.q. of a 6 month old. It meant she could identify her mother and father and understand pain but could not speak She was also born with an illness where she could not digest food and was slowly starving to death. They mad a permanent hole in her stomach to place a feeding tube and it was swollen and full of infection at all times.

She also had a horrible condition where as she grew he bones fused into one another at the joints causing excrutiating pain and the only solution as she grew was to break her bones at their joints. Imagine the constant pain.

Mr. Latimer went from doctor to doctor and was told she would live her life out in overwhelming pain until she slowly starved to death.

So he engaged in a mercy killing of his daughter by placing her in his truck and hooking up the exhaust pipe. She died in peace with him standing next to the truck window until she slowly fell asleep.

The jury asked the Judge, if we convict him of murder can you guarantee he does not go to jail because if he goes to jail we won't convict him. Yje Kidhe said he would not convict him so they found him guilty of murder then the Judge sentences him to hail full term.The matter goes all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada and two future Chief Justices say this matter should not be in court. By a decision of 1, his conviction is upheld and the deciding Judge was a well known devout Catholic.

Our laws whether it be dealing ith passive or assertive euthanasia and death decisions is confused and has left us al in limbo.. With our physicians we give them a code of conduct that says, vigorously treat pain but if you give so much medication as to kill someone then you are on your own for criminal and civil liability. They are not the bad guys and neither is anyone else.

Does this family and this young girl for that matter, have right to decide whether the pain and suffering that would be inflicted on this child through chemotherapy to keep her live ear is worth it?

The faith based practices of the aboriginal people have been made an issue but its not the real one. Legally they have that right and no court can take it away and they will win if they are faced with court proceedings trying to ignore their faith beliefs. They are protected by the Charter.

That is not the real issue. The real issue is quality of life. When is enough, enough. When do we get to say as individuals, hey enough is enough.

No we do not want people exploiting the vulnerable and people without any or all capacity.No we do not want relatives killing people off to get their money. No we do not want to set a precedent that would make it possible for government to kill people off to save money.

No we do not want to force people to live with incurable illnesses where they are overwhelmed with pain and no we do not want to force death on people not ready for it either.

We can accommodate all the above. The method to do so can be found in the laws of Washington and Oregon.

In the meantime while we slowly come to grips with this issue, this family will prevail and the words of this child will go on to serve as a healing tool and source of comfort to many dying people and her aboriginal faith based practices will go on to help not just native peoples but non native peoples deal and cope in a positive way with life and death.

The message of this child and her parents in case Boges missed is already transcending any particular religious belief or law. Its a simple message-its called love.

Edited May 17, 2014 by Rue

cybercoma · May 17, 2014

You've really got to start adding a TL;DR line to your posts.

Smallc · May 20, 2014

You've got to be kidding me:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/aboriginal/makayla-sault-will-not-be-apprehended-by-children-s-aid-1.2648562

This girl is going to die for tradition.

eyeball · May 20, 2014

We saw how superstition trumped science with Luna the whale and I recall someone asking if that still would have been the case had Luna been a human being. I guess so.

This girl is going to die for tradition.

She's also going to die for Jesus so maybe that's why this case will be allowed to run it's supernatural course.

cybercoma · May 20, 2014

You've got to be kidding me:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/aboriginal/makayla-sault-will-not-be-apprehended-by-children-s-aid-1.2648562

This girl is going to die for tradition.

you're missing the point. If someone has severe side effects from chemo, as she did, we would allow them to discontinue treatment. The doctors warned them of the risks. Her death will be on the family. The last thing we need is the government taking an incredibly sick girl from her family because they made a decision we're all entitled to make. Edited May 20, 2014 by cybercoma

Smallc · May 20, 2014

I really don't understand how she can be allowed to make such a decision. No 10 year old could ever understand the ramifications of such a decision. The parents may be making the decision out of love, but it's naive. I doubt her dealt will be any more pleasant than the Chemo

cybercoma · May 20, 2014

She has made the decision, along with her parents. I think it's absolutely stupid and a perfect example of the dangers of religious faith. However, people have the right to refuse treatment. They're not mentally ill. There's no one coercing them into the decision. It's just a sad picture of religion leading to terrible and irrational decisions.

The_Squid · May 20, 2014

You've got to be kidding me:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/aboriginal/makayla-sault-will-not-be-apprehended-by-children-s-aid-1.2648562

This girl is going to die for tradition.

But all the grandams were crying....

what a huge victory for aboriginal rights.... the right to let your child die because you're superstitious...

Big Guy · May 21, 2014

If a ten year old has the maturity to decide on life and death for herself then should a mature ten year old also take responsibility for murdering someone else?

Once we begin to attach the mature label to children to allow them the right to decide on their own lives then we also have to saddle them with the responsibility of making decisions - both good and bad.

I have always opposed the present governments attempt to lower the age of responsibility and believe that anyone below the age of 16 is not responsible and should not be made responsible for decisions of life and death.

WestCoastRunner · May 21, 2014

This is a very complex situation. After reading the articles, I am now on the fence with the decision of the family. The health care providers have said that by discontinuing chemo she could possibly relapse and die. They have not said with any certainly that she will die. However, receiving traditional treatments has allowed her to stay with her family and she has not had the terrible side effects of chemo. If anyone has had a relative going through chemo, then you know what they mean.

I have struggled with this case. I have witnessed first hand the assault on someone's body on chemo, especially to an 11 year old. Let's just pray that the treatment she is now receiving will save her life.

Personally, if it were my child, I would go with the chemo but unless we have walked in another person's footprint, we cannot begin to understand the situation.

Smallc · May 21, 2014

This is a very complex situation.

Not really, no. The doctors think the Chemo needs to go on..The family hopes that voodoo will save her. As painful as Chemo is, it's actually a simple case.

WestCoastRunner · May 21, 2014

Not really, no. The doctors think the Chemo needs to go on..The family hopes that voodoo will save her. As painful as Chemo is, it's actually a simple case.

It is complicated. I once thought it was black and white but I don't think so anymore. But, that is my opinion.

Smallc · May 21, 2014

It is complicated. I once thought it was black and white but I don't think so anymore. But, that is my opinion.

I don't think it's complicated because it's about a little girls life. It seems complicated because it involves culture, faith, pain, etc...but really, it's quite simple.

WestCoastRunner · May 21, 2014

I don't think it's complicated because it's about a little girls life. It seems complicated because it involves culture, faith, pain, etc...but really, it's quite simple.

I actually only thought of the girl's suffering and her parents. Her culture etc never entered my mind. I am speaking as a mother.

Smallc · May 21, 2014

I actually only thought of the girl's suffering and her parents. Her culture etc never entered my mind. I am speaking as a mother.

Her suffering could become far far worse with traditional medicine, and the result of this decision could be very final, a result that I wouldn't think any mother would want.

WestCoastRunner · May 21, 2014

Her suffering could become far far worse with traditional medicine, and the result of this decision could be very final, a result that I wouldn't think any mother would want.

Maybe so, I don't really know. Neither do you.