Ontario Budget 2014 -- Election

[Wayward Son]

And then once hired, you start working on your provincial, level 1, level 2, and further certifications, some of that before you ever see any action. Not all education takes place before hiring, as is the case for corrections officers, police officers, and in some cases, fire fighters (you can take the certifications on your own, and many departments will not hire without them). Those certifications represent hundreds of hours of training that must be completed.

I think there is a massive difference between education required before you can apply for a specific job and training you received once you have a job.

In the former you have to deal with not only the expenses of paying for that education, but also the lost wages during those years you are getting an education. In the latter you are not only being paid, but the training is also being paid for.

A doctor needs to spend 8 years in university both racking up debt, and not earning for those 8 years. For a nurse it is 4 years, a teacher it is 5. In each case they finish that education with debts to repay whether or not the employment prospects remain the same as they were when each started their education. I think that should be taken into account when it comes to how much people are paid, and it is in no way comparable to the training a firefighter is paid to do after they are hired, or the additional ACP training many paramedics are paid to do after they are hired.

[Bryan]

On the job training is not an education requirement, it's an employment benefit.

[cybercoma]

On the job training is not an education requirement, it's an employment benefit.

Not if they can let you go before you do the job if you fail the training or fail to complete the training. It's a requirement. It's kind of an irrelevant point though. Edited May 3, 2014 by cybercoma

[Smallc]

On the job training is not an education requirement, it's an employment benefit.

Not if they can let you go before you do the job if you fail the training or fail to complete the training.

[Smallc]

I think there is a massive difference between education required before you can apply for a specific job and training you received once you have a job.

Most departments will require you to be a level 1 firefighter, if not a level 2, before you ever get a job. Similarly, most services will repair you to be a PCP, ICP, or ACP before you get the job, not after.

[Bryan]

Not if they can let you go before you do the job if you fail the training or fail to complete the training. It's a requirement. It's kind of an irrelevant point though.

Any job can let you go if you aren't working out.

[cybercoma]

Sure. Let's just generalize it as "not working out" instead of looking at it for what it is: required training.

[Bryan]

Sure. Let's just generalize it as "not working out" instead of looking at it for what it is: required training.

Most jobs have a required on the job learning curve. It might be at your desk, it might be in a classroom. It's still a benefit to be paid to get a certification.

[cybercoma]

Sure. Getting paid while learning is a benefit. That doesn't mean that the learning isn't a requirement of the job.

[Big Guy]

Looks like this election will be the "running away" election. Wynne will be running away from McGuinty, Hudak will be running away from Harris and Horvath running away from Rae.

Appears that the one who is able to distance themselves the farthest from their unpopular predecessor will be the winner.

I am pretty sure we will not be seeing any candidates having a photo op with McGuinty, Harris or Rae.

[Scotty]

Detroit is a really bad comparison for a lot of reasons. Windsor Police, I used to live there, have a lot to deal with on the weekends with the bars.

If you are trying to dismiss this by suggesting the job of a Windsor police officer is harder or more dangerous or more complicated than that of a Detroit Police officer you are in for a very serious uphill struggle. Certainly the examples you used are extremely inadequate.

Again, why the international comparison? Is this not a discussion about why Ontario is having problems versus the rest of the country?

As I stated earlier, this is not an issue confined strictly to Ontario. However, Ontario, representing a third the population, often is the trendsetter, especially in terms of how its arbitration system works. Thus an increase in one jurisidction often leads to an increae in another. If it makes you feel better, though, checking the SdQ shows that their top base salary is $68,000, which is considerably lower than the $90,000 of the OPP.

My point, however, is that there are many qualified applicants for these positions. There is no basis for us, as employers, to raise their salaries so high. We could easily attract sufficient applicants at $70,000 or even less. Raising them so high puts a huge burden on the budget and means we must have fewer police, firefighters, teachers, etc.

What kind of differences are there in the education systems between Canada and the UK?

Again, acrording to the Macleans article, the only jursidction on planet earth which pays as much as we do is Germany.

Why must Ontario have the highest teacher salaries in the world? Are we the wealthiest jursidiction in the world? Do we produce the best educated students in the world? Is the cost of living throughout Ontario higher than anywhere else in the world? I submit the answer to all three is no.

And look at the mess that the New York Police Department has found itself in recently. I don't think anyone would hold them up as a shining example of what police work should be everywhere.

I'm not sure what you're talking about with regard to 'messes' but the NYPD is the largest police force in North America, working with far more difficult socioecononomic situations than any police force in Canada. And again, you're ignoring the fact they get a very decent salary, certainly better than Detroir or most other American jurisidctions. However, police in the smaller, less difficult areas, get paid less. Why is that not the case in Ontario? Because of government regulations. Whatever the cops make in the big cities, the cops in the tiny towns will be paid the same.

Regardless, we're talking again about comparing apples and oranges. Policing in NY is not generalizable to policing in Ontario or even Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, or whatever other city you want to compare it to. Market forces in NY might make recruitment and retention easier for officers in NY than it is to get officers in Timmins and Ottawa (who are probably mostly bilingual) or Windsor (which has other considerations being on the border).

No Canadian jurisidction had any difficulty garnering applicants, nor am I aware of any rentention difficulties. Canadian police are very highly paid and have very high benefits compared to other jurisidctions. If you're going to suggest it's harder than in New York state or Detroit or England you're going to have to come up with something logical to explain why. Why is it so much harder to be a police officer in London Ontario than in London England that they need to be paid twice as much? I would suggest instead that it is both more complex and more dangerous in England than in Ontario. It is certainly more complex and dangerous in New York city.

In addition, firefighter salaries throughout Ontario are at or approaching $90,000, whether they're in Toronto or Timmins or Stratford. That's considerably more than firefighters get anywhere else I'm aware of.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Scotty

[cybercoma]

You say they're approaching $90k, but the link I provided says half of the firefighters in Canada make less than $58000. Do you have a source showing the median firefighter income in Ontario is near $90k? I'm sure it's probably pretty close to the national median, since ON makes up such a large part of the population. You shouldnt take the top earnings in a profession and generalize it as "firefighters," implying that's somehow indicative of all them or even some kind of average.

[Shady]

Looks like this election will be the "running away" election. Wynne will be running away from McGuinty, Hudak will be running away from Harris and Horvath running away from Rae.

Appears that the one who is able to distance themselves the farthest from their unpopular predecessor will be the winner.

I am pretty sure we will not be seeing any candidates having a photo op with McGuinty, Harris or Rae.

The difference being that Harris left the province in a tremendously good position. The other two left it in shambles. If I was Hudak, I would campaign with Harris.

[Shady]

Actually, maybe Hudak can step aside and let Harris run things again.

[CPCFTW]

You say they're approaching $90k, but the link I provided says half of the firefighters in Canada make less than $58000. Do you have a source showing the median firefighter income in Ontario is near $90k? I'm sure it's probably pretty close to the national median, since ON makes up such a large part of the population. You shouldnt take the top earnings in a profession and generalize it as "firefighters," implying that's somehow indicative of all them or even some kind of average.

Scotty was discussing the top base salary for the OPP so I'm not sure why you would assume he was referring to median salaries for firefighters.

[Argus]

There are bunch other parties to vote for other than the NDP, Liberals, and PC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Ontario

Realistically, only one of the top three is going to win.

[Boges]

I'm not going to give this story any extra pub, I'm sure people can find it if they want (It was in the Star yesterday).

The poll had the Tories up 4 or 5 points but assumed the Liberals would actually GAIN! a seat. The theory is that the Liberal areas would be more efficient and because the budget was so NDP friendly and they're forcing this election their numbers have tanked.

People forget that even though the Liberals came one seat short of a majority last election the popular vote spread was only about 2 points. So for people that hate FPTP because it hurts Liberals, it goes both ways.

How can you project seat count unless you do polls for every riding separately? This is why I think polling is a scam and should be banned especially during a campaign.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Boges

[Icebound]

Actually, maybe Hudak can step aside and let Harris run things again.

Yes, Harris' advocacy of scrapping the Canada Health Act, together with the general "lower expenditure" policy.... ought to go over real well with voters, especially the lower income voters.

It is easy to balance the budget, if you do not DO anything.

...

...

[Boges]

Harris was doing the same stuff Martin/Chretien was doing on the federal side.

People always choose to ignore that.

Ontario is fooling itself if it thinks the books can be balanced without some "austerity". This Liberal government has ballooned government to such a point that they're actually raising taxes AND increasing the deficit in this past budget they proposed.

[Michael Hardner]

So for people that hate FPTP because it hurts Liberals, it goes both ways.

How can you project seat count unless you do polls for every riding separately? This is why I think polling is a scam and should be banned especially during a campaign.

Well, you could theoretically choose strategic ridings that represent groups of ridings and poll those. You'd have to be very careful about it though. Even the Republicans seemed to drop the ball when the Democrats used that strategy quite well in 2012.

Remember Karl Rove ?

"On November 7, 2012, Rove protested Fox News' call of the 2012 presidential election for Barack Obama, prompting host Megyn Kelly to ask him, "Is this just math that you do as a Republican to make yourself feel better? Or is this real?"[65][66][67]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Rove

[cybercoma]

How can you project seat count unless you do polls for every riding separately? This is why I think polling is a scam and should be banned especially during a campaign.

Your answer can be found HERE.

[Big Guy]

^{I do not understand the NDP forcing an election. It is the NDP that had and could continue to use its position to “politically blackmail” the minority Liberals into passing legislation that the NDP wants. That is the nature of minority governments. This last budget was as close to an NDP majority budget as could be but rather than continuing to use its leverage, the NDP decided to pull the plug.}

^{I remember in the 2006 federal election. Jack Layton was looking at a pro-NDP policy budget tabled by Martin in an attempt to keep the Liberals in power. Instead, Layton pulled the plug. Not that he was not getting the concessions that are available in a minority government but because, “Liberal Leader Paul Martin's promises are completely untrustworthy”. “Don't trust the Liberals, they don't keep their promises.”}

^{Looks like Horvaths talking points!}

^{The subsequent Conservative majority guaranteed that NDP favourable legislation was dead in the water. That was not a bright move for those supporting the NDP.}

^{Now, the Horvath NDP gets all the concessions that any swing party in a minority government could leverage and she decides to pull the plug! I believe that this was not a very bright move. You finally get the kind of concessions and potential legislation that you would submit if you had the majority and you pull the plug! Huh?}

^{I think this was a major mistake, the NDP will end up with fewer votes and no leverage, and Horvath will be history.}

[Boges]

Your answer can be found HERE.

It's all bullcrap. Polling is a faux science that's only goal is to create news.

[Boges]

The NDP was in a rock and a hard place. If they supported this budget. A budget that was conceived to appeal to the NDP, then they would be seen as completely supportive of the criminal and corrupt tactics of the Ontario Liberals.

But now the bread and butter of the Liberals (Public Sector Unions) might completely ignore the NDP just to preserve the sweet deal they've received the past 12 years from this party.

The only hope for the NDP is people realize how damaging the Liberals have been for the rest of the economy. It seems the Liberals only care about the million or so people that are public servant. They have a track recording of telling the rest of the province to pound salt.

[Michael Hardner]

It's all bullcrap. Polling is a faux science that's only goal is to create news.

Yes, I'm sure Karl Rove thought that. Thoughtful polling, though, fed into a strategy to use budget more efficiently and most likely delivered the 2012 presidential win for the democrats.