MiddleClassCentrist Posted June 11, 2014 Report Posted June 11, 2014 Are they? http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/teachers-salaries_teachsal-table-en Teachers in Canada start out at $35,534 and the OECD average starting salary is $28,854. Should we be comparing our teachers' salaries to those Slovenia, Turkey, Mexico, and Estonia though? It seems amongst comparable countries Canada's teachers are making similar salaries. It is worth noting that the minimal training in Ontario is an emergency teacher who is filling in for a class without a university degree and without teacher qualifications. My wife has never encountered such an individual in 10 years of teaching. Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
Boges Posted June 11, 2014 Author Report Posted June 11, 2014 Never said it shouldn't be talked about. It's just not an issue in this campaign. I haven't heard any of the leaders even mention it. I imagine it's a 3rd rail issue inline with abortion or gay marriage. There is a sizeable block of people in Ontario that love their poor man's private school. And because the parish can fund the schools these Catholic school's are almost always nicer. It seems this Ontario government can get away with anything so perhaps Wynne will tackle this issue of she does get a strong mandate. (God I hope not though) But it's not an issue being discussed in this campaign at all. Quote
CPCFTW Posted June 11, 2014 Report Posted June 11, 2014 Are they? http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/teachers-salaries_teachsal-table-en Teachers in Canada start out at $35,534 and the OECD average starting salary is $28,854. Should we be comparing our teachers' salaries to those Slovenia, Turkey, Mexico, and Estonia though? It seems amongst comparable countries Canada's teachers are making similar salaries. It's not just starting salary.. It's total compensation (benefits) and the rate of wage increases that drives our cost of education through the roof. FYI the peer group you are referring to also have debt/deficit issues and stagnant growth.. So not exactly the standard for efficiency. Quote
CPCFTW Posted June 11, 2014 Report Posted June 11, 2014 Exactly. In fact, the entire point of business is to drive their costs to zero. They will hire as few people as possible and only when it's absolutely necessary will they hire more. Unless there's increased demand for their products and services, they're not hiring anyone, tax cuts or not. The point of business is to grow after-tax profits. If labour and tax costs are too high for business to reinvest its pre-tax profits in growth opportunities, it will grow its profit through cost reductions (automation, outsourcing, relocation, etc.) Demand can be stimulated by incenting business and entrepreneurs to establish operations in Ontario. Quote
Mighty AC Posted June 11, 2014 Report Posted June 11, 2014 Never said it shouldn't be talked about. It's just not an issue in this campaign. I haven't heard any of the leaders even mention it. I imagine it's a 3rd rail issue inline with abortion or gay marriage. There is a sizeable block of people in Ontario that love their poor man's private school. And because the parish can fund the schools these Catholic school's are almost always nicer. It seems this Ontario government can get away with anything so perhaps Wynne will tackle this issue of she does get a strong mandate. (God I hope not though) But it's not an issue being discussed in this campaign at all. Wynne's plan is to freeze educational spending, Hudak's is to fire the front line workers thus harming education. I just listed auditing school boards, ending the EQAO and merging the separate school system with the public as possibilities to save more than a billion dollars without hurting student education. Hence there is absolutely no need to go in the direction Hudak is proposing. It's reckless, unnecessary and stupid. It was a political strategy designed to appeal to older voters and I sincerely hope it bites him in the ass. Quote "Our lives begin to end the day we stay silent about the things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire
Boges Posted June 11, 2014 Author Report Posted June 11, 2014 Wynne's plan is to freeze educational spending, Hudak's is to fire the front line workers thus harming education. I just listed auditing school boards, ending the EQAO and merging the separate school system with the public as possibilities to save more than a billion dollars without hurting student education. Hence there is absolutely no need to go in the direction Hudak is proposing. It's reckless, unnecessary and stupid. It was a political strategy designed to appeal to older voters and I sincerely hope it bites him in the ass. Great but that's not what I was saying. I've never heard a politician (sans the Greens) say anything about scrapping the Catholic Board. Quote
Topaz Posted June 11, 2014 Report Posted June 11, 2014 I'll be glad when this election is OVER! I also, like to know how much money Hudak spent on advertising? I'm tired of seeing his face, he's even on game websites!!!! He went overboard, must be very worried of losing his job. Quote
Argus Posted June 11, 2014 Report Posted June 11, 2014 But it's totally okay for corporations to donate money to the PCs which they use on advertising, right? All Political Ads should be banned. Period. Corporate advertising is basically banned at the federal level. I'm not sure how much is given to the Tories at the provincial level. It has always been an assumption of the Left that corporations give their money to the Conservatives at all levels, but in reality the federal Liberals got most corporate funding before it was banned, and it is probably the same at the provincial level. Why? Because the Liberals have been in power for ten years, and the money goes to those who can grant 'favours'. But I'm fine with banning corporate donations at all levels. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
MiddleClassCentrist Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 Never said it shouldn't be talked about. It's just not an issue in this campaign. I haven't heard any of the leaders even mention it. I imagine it's a 3rd rail issue inline with abortion or gay marriage. There is a sizeable block of people in Ontario that love their poor man's private school. And because the parish can fund the schools these Catholic school's are almost always nicer. It seems this Ontario government can get away with anything so perhaps Wynne will tackle this issue of she does get a strong mandate. (God I hope not though) But it's not an issue being discussed in this campaign at all. In spite of the fact that Wynne is openly homosexual and could be fired from the Catholic system for being openly gay and wouldn't be hired by it, she said that she won't touch it. You also can't work in the Catholic system if you try to remarry after divorce. Halton Catholic fired a teacher for trying to remarry. So backwards... state sponsored discrimination. Catholics spend good money every year to lobby for the continued existence of their system. The Government probably likes having the low hanging fruit that is the Catholic union for a fall back strategy. Just whisper "one school system" and watch them pull out pens saying "Where do we sign!!?" Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
Argus Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Are they? http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/teachers-salaries_teachsal-table-en Teachers in Canada start out at $35,534 and the OECD average starting salary is $28,854. Should we be comparing our teachers' salaries to those Slovenia, Turkey, Mexico, and Estonia though? It seems amongst comparable countries Canada's teachers are making similar salaries. I think your information is wrong. The number they give for maximum teacher salary is clearly wrong. It looks like they took the max salary for new teachers. However, once a teacher has 10 years in the pay goes way up. I didn't realize their health care was 100% funded by the employer. That isn't the case with, for example, the federal public service. Also, the federal public servants pay 40% of their pension costs, and that is going to rise to 50%. The Ontario teachers, it appears, at least as of two years ago, only pay about 11.5% towards their pensions!! http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/education/anatomy-of-an-ontario-teachers-paycheque/article6015968/ Edited June 12, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 Talking an end to racial segregation in the southern states used to be political suicide too. Doesn't mean that it shouldn't have been talked about. Comparing this to racial segregation is ignorant and insulting to both Blacks and Catholics. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
MiddleClassCentrist Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 I think your information is wrong. The number they give for maximum teacher salary is clearly wrong. It looks like they took the max salary for new teachers. However, once a teacher has 10 years in the pay goes way up. I didn't realize their health care was 100% funded by the employer. That isn't the case with, for example, the federal public service. Also, the federal public servants pay 40% of their pension costs, and that is going to rise to 50%. The Ontario teachers, it appears, at least as of two years ago, only pay about 11.5% towards their pensions!! http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/education/anatomy-of-an-ontario-teachers-paycheque/article6015968/ Teachers pay 11.5% of their pay toward pension. Employer matches. It's 50% I did mention above too, that the lowest qualified teacher in Ontario does not exist as my wife has not encountered one in her 10 years of teaching. They are temporary fill teachers who do not have degrees. Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
Argus Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 Never said it shouldn't be talked about. It's just not an issue in this campaign. I haven't heard any of the leaders even mention it. One third the population of Ontario is Catholic. If you attack Catholic schools, you guarantee the enmity of a large chunk of those people, and for what? For most of the rest of the province it's a 'meh' issue. So as a political party it's all pain and no gain. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
MiddleClassCentrist Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Comparing this to racial segregation is ignorant and insulting to both Blacks and Catholics. It's ignorant and insulting to support state sponsored discrimination. Catholics can apply to their board, and the Public board. Not vice versa. Catholics can enrol in Catholic elementary or Public elementary, not vice versa. Catholic boards can fire you for coming out of the closet, trying to remarry, and anything else they deem not to be Catholic. Why would anyone who believes in equality support that? One third the population of Ontario is Catholic. If you attack Catholic schools, you guarantee the enmity of a large chunk of those people, and for what? For most of the rest of the province it's a 'meh' issue. So as a political party it's all pain and no gain. Unless you actually want to balance the books responsibly and stop discriminating by funding a single religion that keeps opening schools that we don't need that cost millions of dollars so that we have to close public schools that were perfectly fine for delivering education. The majority of Ontarians want to merge the boards. With immigration, it's only going to become more profound. It's an eventuality that the discriminatory system will disappear. Edited June 12, 2014 by MiddleClassCentrist Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
jacee Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 Talking an end to racial segregation in the southern states used to be political suicide too. Doesn't mean that it shouldn't have been talked about.Comparing this to racial segregation is ignorant and insulting to both Blacks and Catholics. Agreed. Thanks Argus. MCC you are out of line. . . Quote
Argus Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 Wynne's plan is to freeze educational spending, Hudak's is to fire the front line workers thus harming education. Hang on. Hudak has said he would use attrition to lower staffing. If Wynne freezes educational spending, then with inflation, the only way school boards can keep up is by ... releasing staff... probably through attrition. Of course, Hudak doesn't owe his soul to the teachers unions the way Wynne does, so he'd be more likely to actually do it. I just listed auditing school boards, ending the EQAO and merging the separate school system with the public as possibilities to save more than a billion dollars without hurting student education. Eliminating Catholic schools is not going to happen, so you're wasting our time suggesting it. Elminating student testing is merely a sop to the teachers unions, who don't like to have it pointed out that for all their fat salaries and benefit packages, Ontario students are not performing better than jurisdictions with far lower teacher salaries. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 Teachers pay 11.5% of their pay toward pension. Employer matches. It's 50% Apparently you have issues with arithmetic. 11.5% and 11.5% do not equal 50%, much less 100%. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
cybercoma Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 I think your information is wrong. The number they give for maximum teacher salary is clearly wrong. It looks like they took the max salary for new teachers. However, once a teacher has 10 years in the pay goes way up. I didn't realize their health care was 100% funded by the employer. That isn't the case with, for example, the federal public service. Also, the federal public servants pay 40% of their pension costs, and that is going to rise to 50%. The Ontario teachers, it appears, at least as of two years ago, only pay about 11.5% towards their pensions!! http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/education/anatomy-of-an-ontario-teachers-paycheque/article6015968/ The OECD figures aren't wrong. It's a national average.Also our spending on education as a proportion if the GDP is at least half a percent lower than the OECD average. It's tough to look at those numbers and say we pay teachers too much or spend too much on education. Quote
Argus Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) del Edited June 12, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
MiddleClassCentrist Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 Apparently you have issues with arithmetic. 11.5% and 11.5% do not equal 50%, much less 100%. You can insult me all you like. But if I make 80,000 a year and am contributing 11.5% of that. (9200) And the government matches that 11.5% at 9200. Total contributions for the year are 18400. Do I need to do more math? Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
MiddleClassCentrist Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Agreed. Thanks Argus. MCC you are out of line. . . I disagree. I feel discriminated against heavily in this situation by Catholics who want to silence me by saying they are offended by how I take issue with how they actively discriminate against me and my children. Edited June 12, 2014 by MiddleClassCentrist Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
Argus Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 The OECD figures aren't wrong. It's a national average. Well then it's not Ontario's average. It's tough to compare jursidctions, though. Also our spending on education as a proportion if the GDP is at least half a percent lower than the OECD average. As I pointed out earlier, if we look at spending per GDP then Botswana beats hell out of Canada, as well as European countries. Comparisons aren't that simple. It's tough to look at those numbers and say we pay teachers too much or spend too much on education. No, it's very easy to say that teachers, who are making 70-90k per year with enormously generous benefits plans are making too much. Just to start, why should they not be contributing 50% of their pension costs like the federal public service employees are going to be doing? Why shouldn't they be contributing towards their health care costs, like federal employees do? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 You can insult me all you like. But if I make 80,000 a year and am contributing 11.5% of that. (9200) And the government matches that 11.5% at 9200. Total contributions for the year are 18400. Do I need to do more math? They are not contributing 11.5% of their paycheque, they are contributing 11.5% of the cost of their pension. The other 88.5% is contributed by the province. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
MiddleClassCentrist Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) They are not contributing 11.5% of their paycheque, they are contributing 11.5% of the cost of their pension. The other 88.5% is contributed by the province. I can open my wife's most recent paycheque... I can guarantee you that every pay cheque is deducted a similar percentage. Edited June 12, 2014 by MiddleClassCentrist Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
Argus Posted June 12, 2014 Report Posted June 12, 2014 I can open my wife's most recent paycheque... I can guarantee you that every pay cheque is deducted a similar percentage. Mea culpa. I read the cite wrong. That is much less outrageous. But it doesn't change the fact Ontario is paying far too much to teachers, and that this needs to stop. Nothing wrong with being generous, but we simply can't afford it any more, not when there are so many of them. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
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