The Purity of Aboriginal Blood? Who cares?

[Boges]

Except that most of us moved here from other places, and that inevitably meant that our children and grandchildren would have less and less regard for those old cultures. And we didn't care. Are Scottish Canadians concerned their kids aren't interested in bagpipes and don't want to wear kilts? Are Irish Canadians concerned their kids don't speak Gailic? Do German Canadians makes sure their kids know all about the history of Germany and the Germanic people? What do English Canaian kids whose great grandfathers came here from England, know about English history they didn't see in Hollywood movies or on TV shows?

White Canadians in general have put little emphasis on hanging onto old cultural baggage, and no one seems to feel that's wrong. So why is it so dramatically important for native groups to hang onto theirs?

That applies to most cultures. There's a bit of fear-mongering going on, on the internet that the birthrate of people from Muslim countries compared to other Western nations is very high. The fear is that people that want to adhere to Sharia Law will soon be the majority.

It course ignores that a good number of people that move to the West assimilates very quickly and their birthrate declines. There are obviously exceptions to this but the good majority of people that move to the West from other cultures assimilate.

[cybercoma]

No, it's actually not. Canada has an overriding culture which allows for a wide degree of variation. However, it does not allow other, imported cultures to veer very widely in terms of the laws which our culture has imposed on behaviour. Ie, we don't care what your culture says about drug use, about rape, about spousal assaults or child abuse. You will abide by our cultural norms on these things or be punished.

Those are all examples that are completely irrelevant to that discussion. Nobody argued people should be allowed to break our criminal laws.

[Argus]

I am speaking from the voice of east indians that I have spoken with who are agreeable to this arrangement, as I have quoted above.

Women in east asian society, generally speaking, are accorded a role in society slightly less important than cattle. Since almost all the east asians in Canada are immigrants or at least, their children, it's not surprising they would still cling to practices which are incredibly sexist.

[Argus]

You mean like my irish protestant parents who were forced into marriage by their parents over a pregnancy......you mean that culturally superior?

There's a significant difference between expecting to young lovers to marry so they can look after their child, and drawing two complete strangers together and forcing them to marry without regard to their personal feelings.

[Argus]

Yet is our "superior" societal norm you're standing behind. If you don't think so, you need to seriously look around.

And what's wrong with that given our societal norms clearly ARE superior?

[cybercoma]

There's a significant difference between expecting to young lovers to marry so they can look after their child, and drawing two complete strangers together and forcing them to marry without regard to their personal feelings.

Go ahead and pretend like the distinction between forced marriages and arranged marriages hasn't been made.

[Argus]

What does this even mean? People come to Canada because of its liberty; they can practice their culture and hang onto their heritage while also being Canadian. As long as what they're doing is legal, people can be whomever they want here. That includes hanging onto their cultural identities.

They can wear funny clothes and do funny dances, sure. But no, they can't hang onto their cultural beliefs and identies in a pluralistic society which puts so much emphasis on equality, for many, if not most of their cultural beliefs do not accept the idea of equality, particularly gender equality.

[Big Guy]

About 40% of marriages in Canada end in divorce. That is not counting how many common-law arrangements break up or how many people just walk away from each other after marriage It appears that there are many reasons why people who promise to love "until, death do then part" and then don't. I believe that when people marry within their religion, heritage and culture that there is a greater support system and that the chances for success are better. There are more commonalities than differences. There are fewer problems making decisions as to children regarding language, religion and traditions. I have no statistics to reinforce my assumptions - just anecdotal from living in ethnic communities.

I do know of major challenges for children of mixed races, colors and /or religions. Growing up is difficult enough without having the pressures of going through a childhood as an obvious result of a mixed color race marriage.

As to "pure" ancestry, a colleague of mine had been a professional dealing with ancestry searches and heraldry. She told me some stories of many "surprises" when researching the ancestry of a "pure" individuals who proved to not be so "pure" after all.

Personally, I wish them all luck. There are already very many distractions, temptations and pressures which can destroy a relationship. The fewer of these between couples then the greater chance of a happy and successful couple and family.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Big Guy

[cybercoma]

They can wear funny clothes and do funny dances, sure. But no, they can't hang onto their cultural beliefs and identies in a pluralistic society which puts so much emphasis on equality, for many, if not most of their cultural beliefs do not accept the idea of equality, particularly gender equality.

More strawmen out of you. Something very specific is being argued and you come back suggesting people are arguing wholesale for some general sexist ideals. That's not what's being discussed here and it's at best dishonest of you to go there.

[Argus]

Because white people's "racial purity" arguments are thinly veiled racism about racial superiority. It has nothing to do with preserving a dying culture and heritage.

The column wasn't about preserving a dying culture and heritage either. She wasn't expressing a need to marry someone from her culture, but from her race, and native populations are growing faster than non-native populations.

[Argus]

Are we talking about Francophones?

Aren't they white? Did you not say no white people have any legitimate fear of loss of their heritage and language?

[Argus]

I already posted a reference that indicated how many tribes and languages have been lost. Perhaps the First Nations don't seem like they're in trouble to you because you have the privilege of not having to worry about the problems they face.

But the woman is talking about race, and if a Mohawk woman marries a Huron man just how is it her children's heritage is any better preserved than marrying a Scot?

[Argus]

Footnotes are important: "Some factors should be taken into account when comparing the 2006 Census and the 2011 National Household Survey data (e.g., differences in methodology in the 2011 NHS, wording of Aboriginal questions, etc.)." Did you take those factors into account?[/size]

By any measure native populations are rising. Another item I read said that many first nations communities had refused to take part in the census, however, natives report their births and deaths to the federal government because it plays into what money they are given. And their numbers continue to rise.

[Argus]

It might have something to do with excluding them and systematically trying to destroy their culture. But you're not looking for an actual answer, are you?

Sorry, but I don't get how you've accepted that we white people have made so little efforts at clinging to historical cultures and heritage and then assuming we should want natives to go the opposite route. Maybe at one point natives were relataged to reserves but that hasn't been the case in a long time. More and more natives are leaving the reserves to join the mainstream, which has opportunities they can only dream of on the reserves. In other words, they're doing what all our white ancestors did when they came to Canada. Makes sense to me.

[Wilber]

I don't care what her reasons are, they are none of my business. People get married for many reasons and I guess race is as good as any. The problem is the idea of "status". Aboriginals are the only race that have official status in this country and that is racist in itself. I know it was negotiated by treaty and was probably a good thing in its time but trying to freeze a certain period of time in a world that is under constant change is bound to be bad for everyone in the long term. Somehow a consensus needs to be reached that will eliminate the idea of racial status so everyone can move forward.

Someone asked whether the white race is in trouble. In a modern world, races and culture have to evolve and adapt and as with any species, if you can't adapt and evolve you go extinct. The so called "white culture" is not what it was 200 years ago and mixed race people are part of the norm in our society.

Something really jumped out at me the other day. My west side Vancouver high school class is holding its 50th reunion this year. The class list was emailed to me and has 185 names on it. Not one is a non European name and Anglo Saxons are by far the most common. I suspect they may be a minority today. Not necessarily a bad thing but pretty convincing evidence you can't just stop the world and get off any time you like.

[Smallc]

It's almost funny watching people who are supposed to be progressing twisting and turning to defend practices and attitudes that they would otherwise find abhorrent. White guilt indeed.

[cybercoma]

White guilt? Please. You want to criticize someone over her choices. It's none of your business who she chooses to marry nor her reasons for doing so. That's what liberty and freedom are about. It would be like someone criticizing you for marrying a native woman. It's nobody's business but your own. She wrote an article trying to give people an idea of the difficulties she faces finding the kind of person she wants to marry. These are difficulties most Canadians don't have, even when they do choose to find someone from their race or culture. That's all this is. And you've decided to get on your soapbox and feign indignation at who someone else chooses to marry.

Edited April 24, 2014 by cybercoma

[Argus]

Those are all examples that are completely irrelevant to that discussion. Nobody argued people should be allowed to break our criminal laws.

Now you're just being silly. Our criminal laws are based on our culture. So are theirs. That's why men in most Muslim countries can beat their wives and children with impunity. That's why genital mutilation is accepted in their old societies. That's why most businesses would never hire or promote a woman for any responsible position. Do we even want to get into discrimination and violence against gays or honor killings?

For that matter, half the population of India squats and dumps in the street. They don't do that here, though, because they'll be arrested. In Pakistan, mobs of people attack minority communities. Not here, though. We don't allow that. Somalians can smoke khat wherever they want in their society. Not in ours.Chinese who come here learn that elbowing into lines is heavily dissaproved here. They might not get arrested, but they soon learn some of their old cultural norms are not acceptable to our culture.

[Smallc]

It became my business when she wrote an editorial about it. Obviously she wanted it to be everyone's business, to tell us all about her self imposed plight.

[Argus]

Go ahead and pretend like the distinction between forced marriages and arranged marriages hasn't been made.

The majority of arranged marriages are forced in that the young people grow up within a stratified society and refusing such a thing is very nearly unthinkable. If they do refuse they could find themselves pariahs within these communities, not to mention subjected, particularly in the caes of girls, to violence.

[Smallc]

Also, most of us don't had her problem because we just aren't that racist.

[Smallc]

The majority of arranged marriages are forced in that the young people grow up within a stratified society and refusing such a thing is very nearly unthinkable. If they do refuse they could find themselves pariahs within these communities, not to mention subjected, particularly in the caes of girls, to violence.

Exactly. An arranged marriage is a forced marriage.

[cybercoma]

Now you're just being silly. Our criminal laws are based on our culture. So are theirs.

This post is painfully stupid and here's why:

That's why men in most Muslim countries can beat their wives and children with impunity.

Illegal here.

That's why genital mutilation is accepted in their old societies.

Also illegal.

That's why most businesses would never hire or promote a woman for any responsible position.

Also illegal.

Do we even want to get into discrimination and violence against gays or honor killings?

Sure. Let's get into it. They're also illegal.

For that matter, half the population of India squats and dumps in the street. They don't do that here, though, because they'll be arrested.

Exactly.

In Pakistan, mobs of people attack minority communities. Not here, though. We don't allow that. Somalians can smoke khat wherever they want in their society. Not in ours. Chinese who come here learn that elbowing into lines is heavily dissaproved here. They might not get arrested, but they soon learn some of their old cultural norms are not acceptable to our culture.

And this has absolutely nothing to do with the present conversation about a woman who is looking for her ideal mate and the subsequent discussion about people that choose to enter arranged marriages? You know why? Because these things are not illegal. Your entire argument here is ridiculous strawman after ridiculous strawman. If you spent half as much time actually debating what was being said as you do making up complete and utter bullshit, then you might actually come across a valid point or two.

[cybercoma]

It became my business when she wrote an editorial about it. Obviously she wanted it to be everyone's business, to tell us all about her self imposed plight.

Yes. The considerations an aboriginal woman has to make when getting married is self-imposed. She literally drafted the oppressive legislation herself.

[Argus]

And this has absolutely nothing to do with the present conversation about a woman who is looking for her ideal mate and the subsequent discussion about people that choose to enter arranged marriages? You know why? Because these things are not illegal. Your entire argument here is ridiculous strawman after ridiculous strawman. If you spent half as much time actually debating what was being said as you do making up complete and utter bullshit, then you might actually come across a valid point or two.

That you are incapable of broadening your rigid world view to understand how this directly relates to the conversation is, of course, your problem, not mine.

We were speaking, as the conversation moved in that direction, to our multiculralism and and equality of cultures. I was pointing out that while we tolerate minority cultures, we only do so insofar as they don't violate our own culturallly acceptable behaviour too far. All the things you dismiss as 'illegal' are illegal because our culture doesn't approve of that behaviour. These things are legal, or at least, pretty much accepted, in many if not most of the cultures immigrants come from. So again, we accept some variance, but there are central tenets of our culture we require all minority cultures to adhere to.

Or else.