Belarus, Russia & the West

[Argus]

You need to look into the sciences a bit more before making such claim. No one with even a passing knowledge of physics could make such a statement with a straight face. Whether it comes to nuclear energy, space exploration, low temperature physics, cosmology, particle physics, plasma science, etc, Russian scientists have made significant contributions to all these fields. The world's leading concept for developing fusion energy - the Tokamak - was originally developed in Russia. Russia is one of only two nations (along with China) that can put humans in space. Those are just two examples... but seriously man, if you ever pick up a physics or math textbook, like a third of the equations and laws are named after Russian dudes. And if you ever stop by a physics lab in most any university in the US or Canada... half the people there are Russian immigrants.

Russia and China have space programs because their leaders have big-penis syndrome, and don't mind spending however many billions it requires to impress people -- like you apparently. Tens of millions of their people live in abject poverty but their leaders like to strut.

And here's a thought for you, great thinker that you are, if half the people in physics labs are Russian immigrants... why is that? I mean, according to you, Russia is the centre of the physics universe. Surely they're all, like, rock stars back home and have these fabulous ultra-modern scientific laboratories!

And yet, also according to you, they're fleeing Russia in droves!

You have a very backward attitude towards countries you perceive as your geopolitical enemies... you assume they are all uncouth barbarians. But that's simply not the case.

It's nice you feel so free to define my attitude even without any evidence to support it. Probably arises from your love of the sciences. Russians ARE uncouth. Their government is corrupt from top to bottom, and infested with violence prone mafia types who'll kill at the drop of a hat. Their society is rife with alcoholism, drug abuse, racism and family violence. Gangs of facists roam the streets looking for minorities to beat up (fortunately there are no gay people in Russia for them to beat up). The country can put men in space but abortion remains the main birth control option for Russian women because they either can't afford or don't know about contraception methods. It's pathetic, really.

Seriously? Japan is at the very forefront of developments in the fields of computer science, artificial intelligence, neural networks, robotics, nanotechnology, biotechnology, semiconductor manufacturing, as well as having provided significant contributions to theoretical and experimental physics.

Japan is good at taking other people's ideas and developing them, but not so good at coming up with ideas in the first place.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Argus

[Argus]

Russia still has major domestic car makes...Canada doesn't.

Russia is a command driven economy. The government builds cars for the more ordinary people (government and indusry people drive foreign cars) because otherwise their people would not be able to afford cars or trucks.

[Argus]

The Lada is actually from Italy. Ever heard of a Bricklin?

The Lada is actually from Russia.

[Rue]

The Lada is actually from Russia.

It was a dumbed down version of the Fiat. The shell or body was an old Fiat. The engine was for sure Russian.

[Rue]

Ever ridden in a MiG-23 ? Canada can no longer build its own fighter "jets". The Russians can...

A MIG 23 is a cheap imitation of th F 14/15. The Foxbat and all the Mig fighter series are stolen from American models and the French Mirage then modified.

However your point is taken they make their own fighter jet and its potent enough. No match for the US Air Force or probably the Tornado and maybe not quite up to fighting the latest Saab or Mirage but certainly capable of being lethal in Eastern Europe and in the hands of a skilled pilot. They also have a much larger navy or army than Canada. In fact no one could argue that.. Canada has allowed its armed forces to become virtually non existent. No arguments there.

Let's face it we ASSUME the US has our back which is a dumb thing because the US has its own interests when it comes to exploiting the natural resources of the North and off our coasts where fisheries and off shore waters overlap.

That said, the issue is what does Russia intend to do. It has an armed forces yes but its logistics is non existent. It can not sustain a lengthy war. It can invade next door neighbours yes. That is about it. Its logistics would not allow it much more.

It will concentrate on its own back yard and former Soviet nations it wants brought back in but it can not make large scale take overs of entire nations anymore. It doesn't have the logistics to do so. How far it goes past that depends on its economy which is fragile at best. Its totally dependent on gas and oil exports. Its confident Europe won't turn away its gas and oil. If Europe did, turning to China and India is its plan. India and China in Putin's mind can offset any loss in exports to Europe. That's a decision Putin seems to have already made.

Putin decided to turn on the US sometime during the re-election campaign. I really do think when he saw Romney losing he saw it as a green light to turn on his chauvenistic engine sensing Obama was a weakling and over his head in foreign affairs.

I think if Romney had been elected Outin would have proceeded a lot slower in Syria and then for all we know not gone into the Ukraine.

What we do know is Putin is going to focus his people away from their own failed economy as Hitler did building this false wall of chauvenistic pride.

The point though is, his oil and has revenues are not re-igniting the Russian economy. Eventually he is going to face problems internally over food prices. That food crisis is real. Russia is failing to feed itself. So its economy depends on whether it can turn itself into a resource for China and India and transfer oil and gas revenues to purchase food it can distribute to its people. The problem is the black market controls food importing and exporting not the government and so its unstructured, chaotic, and controlled by crime syndicates who are unpredictable and no Putin does not control them easily. He is allied with them as long as he leaves them alone.

Rampant coruption and ensuing unequal distributopm of food with high prices is bound to trigger an upcoming crisis in Russia and for all we know this latest round of chauvenistic bluster was designed to focus away from that fact.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Rue

[bush_cheney2004]

....However your point is taken they make their own fighter jet and its potent enough. No match for the US Air Force or probably the Tornado and maybe not quite up to fighting the latest Saab or Mirage but certainly capable of being lethal in Eastern Europe and in the hands of a skilled pilot. They also have a much larger navy or army than Canada. In fact no one could argue that.. Canada has allowed its armed forces to become virtually non existent. No arguments there.

Let's face it we ASSUME the US has our back which is a dumb thing because the US has its own interests when it comes to exploiting the natural resources of the North and off our coasts where fisheries and off shore waters overlap.

The Russian Federation has interests too, and it has the means and will to project power and defend them. Canada has neither. An earlier thread featured an author who wants Canada to fully integrate with the U.S for protection in the North, for military capabilities and capital investment.

[Smallc]

Very few countries have the means to project force with their shrinking forces. Canada certainly isn't alone in that regard.

[August1991]

Not to drift the thread too much, but you're wrong. The universe doesn't know anything about 2+2. It's Mathematics, which exists in the human mind and is not a natural science. 2+2=4 is an approximation, as they say.

Let me drift, then get back to the OP via comments on this thread.

Michael, the universe knows that 2+3=5. Indeed, that's all the universe is. Some - like Big Guy above - believe that the universe is "relative".

IMV, there is something called "the truth" - and it is 2+3=5. Einstein may have discovered relativity, Max Planck may have discovered quantum mechanics but both knew that 2+3=5 must be a universal constant. (Hence, my reference to God.)

IMHO, too many people who are bad at mathematics arithmetic have misinterpreted the words "relativity" and "quantum".

====

This thread is a bizarre discussion about whether "Russia" is modern or not. I argued in my OP that Russians (and Chinese, Pakistanis, Indians, Afghanis) will discover Western ideas as individuals in their own way.

We can all agree that a few individual Russians developed modern probabillity theory in the late 19th century. Yet, many/most Russians today, in the early 21st century, read horoscopes or sit on a suitcase before travel.

====

Last thought: Maybe Putin won't negotiate a Belarus "merger". He may take the Russophone part of Moldavia instead.

Edited March 25, 2014 by August1991

[Michael Hardner]

Michael, the universe knows that 2+3=5. Indeed, that's all the universe is. Some - like Big Guy above - believe that the universe is "relative".

In response to my point, you merely restate yours then take it into a different direction.

There is no "truth" in 2+2=5. It's an expression in the language of mathematics, which is a man made language. It is a language that comprises tools we use to understand the universe, but it isn't perfect, and it isn't truth. It approximates the physical world, but it has limits.

If mathematics were truth, then you would have a real answer to x/0 or the square root of negative one.

If you disagree, then we should really start a new thread.

[Rue]

Well of course Small you are dead on. few countries have large armed forces to engage in gunboat foreign policy today. Ironically China with one of the largest forces, has shown you can conquer the world without ever shooting a bullet, you just engage in predatory pricing. Took them less than 10 years to conquer all of the free market system.

When I criticize say Canada for having a small run down army, its not because it can't engage in gun boat diplomacy but because it can't even rescue its own citizens. We forget the US armed forces paid for by US taxpayers money saves thousands of lives of non Americans each year whether it be in response to ships sinking or malfunctioning at sea earth-quakes, floods,search and rescue for downed planes. So I just don't like people dissing the US but being quick to enjoy the benefits of its armed forces at the same time. So I criticize Canada for that. .

I think its disgraceful we leave the North open for any Tom, Dick and Harry to claim sovereignty and its naïve to think our best friend the US does not have competing interests for control over the North. Our other close allies, Britain, France, Denmark, Norway, all have staked claims as have China, Russia and Japan. We alredy let let our fisheries be destroyed by Russia, China, Japan and to a lesser extent Spain and Portugal.

Now we appear to be doing the same up North and given how Putin has behaved, does this look like a man anyone would want to share a border with?

In the short term Putin will get a chauvinistic boost to his ego and he may be empowered to move in to other former Soviet zones close by but in the long run these sortes while boosting Russian pride will trigger a recession in Russia and his switch over to exporting gas and oil to China instead of Europe is a huge mistake. Its one thing to do business with India, Its another with China. They will have Putin by his balls and squeeze the price down. They did the same in Sudan, Mozambique, Angola, Iran, and the cost of being a big bad Stalinist with Europe is going to mean Putin becomes dependent on China and they are no soft touch in negotiations not even for him.

Now we have free trade with Europe Canadian businesses should seize the opportunity to step in and replace Russia.

As for Putin and his behaviour with borders it presents serious issues for Harper now up North. How long until Putin asserts sovereignty over land that is in Canada up North? Does he look like someone you sit down and negotiate with?

Edited March 25, 2014 by Rue

[Big Guy]

If the pretext that was "illegitimately" used by Putin to annex Crimea was an "inaccurate" referendum then why not use a "legitimate" referendum which would be "accurate" to protect other areas?

Why not organize referendums in the rest of the Ukraine, Moldavia, the Baltic states and any other area which the West believes to be in danger of being annexed by Putin? That way you control the wording of the question and guarantee an outcome that the West wants.

Or would you? Is there a danger that maybe other parts of the old Soviet Union would want back into a Russian speaking and Moscow dominated association?

Putin is doing what he thinks is best for Russia. If you can believe the polls coming out of Russia, Putins popularity in Russia is soaring and currently much higher than Harpers in Canada or Obamas in the USA. How can we accurately gauge the wants of those areas where Russian is the predominant language?

[iolo]

Yes - 'the West' plotted to grab the Ukraine cheap (they clearly wouldn't allow it into the EU, any more than they would Turkey), using the local Nazis to overthrow the elected President. Putin stood up to them, and they're not used to it, are they?

[August1991]

There is no "truth" in 2+2=5. It's an expression in the language of mathematics, which is a man made language.

In fact, it must be that 2+3=5.

Michael, it is impossible to create/have a universe in which both 2+3=5 and also 2+2=5.

And trust me, this is not a "man made language". Everywhere in the universe, pi (the ratio of a circle to its diameter) must be a real constant. Indeed, it is impossible to create a universe where this ratio is different.

-----

Westerners, adepts of Galileo and Voltaire, are welcome to use this argument against superstitious people in, say, Indonesia and Russia - or even Riyadh.

Edited March 29, 2014 by August1991

[Bryan]

The Lada is actually from Italy.

The Lada is actually from Russia.

You're both right. AvtoVAZ, the company that makes Lada, was founded as a joint venture between Fiat and the Russian government. Fiat is no longer involved, but Renault-Nissan is a partner now. They still are a major manufacturer making very modern automobiles, over a million a year.

The Lada we are most familiar with really is Italian. Fiat set up the Russian factory to produce Fiat 124's for the eastern European market. The problem was, Fiats were notoriously unreliable cars ("Fix It Again Tony" people used to say). If anything, the Russian built versions were better than the Italian ones (especially the brakes and suspension), just not better enough to make a difference. Lada stopped building that model several decades ago.

[Michael Hardner]

and also 2+2=5.

And trust me, this is not a "man made language". Everywhere in the universe, pi (the ratio of a circle to its diameter) must be a real constant. Indeed, it is impossible to create a universe where this ratio is different.

Trust you ? I think you're starting to understand the limits of universality here, if you're asking me to 'trust you'.

No, it's human created. 2 plus 2 doesn't exist anywhere in nature. Identical entities don't exist in the universe - only in man's perception. pi is an approximation. Try writing it here, and you'll see the problem.

Westerners, adepts of Galileo and Voltaire, are welcome to use this argument against superstitious people in, say, Indonesia and Russia - or even Riyadh.

I don't know why you picked an Arabian city, presumably because Arabs invented the number system ?

[August1991]

Serious thread drift ahead.

Trust you ? I think you're starting to understand the limits of universality here, if you're asking me to 'trust you'.

No, it's human created. 2 plus 2 doesn't exist anywhere in nature. Identical entities don't exist in the universe - only in man's perception. pi is an approximation. Try writing it here, and you'll see the problem.

Michael, you're wrong.

2 plus 2 is the essence of our universe. Why? Because it is impossible to have a universe where 2 plus 2 equals 4, and 2 plus 3 also equals 4.

IMHO, Euclid was the first to discover this truth.

With that said, Euclid could not imagine a universe where parallel lines may eventually meet. IOW, Euclid was right, and Einstein was also right

Michael, if you want to discuss this further, let's take a room.

Edited March 31, 2014 by August1991

[Michael Hardner]

Serious thread drift ahead.

Michael, you're wrong.

2 plus 2 is the essence of our universe. Why? Because it is impossible to have a universe where 2 plus 2 equals 4, and 2 plus 3 also equals 4.

Have you ever heard of a circular argument ? You just keep repeating things, and pointing things to themselves.

Have you ever taken pure math or number theory ? I took a few grad level courses, very interesting.

Michael, if you want to discuss this further, let's take a room.

Agreed.

[Big Guy]

The USA and Russia have been discussing the future of Ukraine and it looks like the Crimea thing is a done deal. It is reported that the idea of creating a “federation” of Ukraine is being seriously considered by both sides. Not sure what current citizens of Ukraine want.

Ukraine is made up of 24 oblasts (provinces) and a city with special status: its capital and largest city of Kiev. I assume the idea is to allow each area to decide on a pro-Western or pro-Russian direction. Sounds to me like what the Russians did in Crimea. Is this a good possible solution to the current crisis or is this a bad idea?

[Argus]

Yes - 'the West' plotted to grab the Ukraine cheap (they clearly wouldn't allow it into the EU, any more than they would Turkey), using the local Nazis to overthrow the elected President. Putin stood up to them, and they're not used to it, are they?

Oh yes, Vlad the Impaler is the hero of free thinkers and freedom lovers everywhere. He's the world's greatest human being, at least, in Russia. No doubt Russians will soon have to start shaving their heads to immitate his 'hair' like North Koreans with Kim Jong Un.

[ASIP]

The USA and Russia have been discussing the future of Ukraine and it looks like the Crimea thing is a done deal. It is reported that the idea of creating a “federation” of Ukraine is being seriously considered by both sides. Not sure what current citizens of Ukraine want.

Ukraine is made up of 24 oblasts (provinces) and a city with special status: its capital and largest city of Kiev. I assume the idea is to allow each area to decide on a pro-Western or pro-Russian direction. Sounds to me like what the Russians did in Crimea. Is this a good possible solution to the current crisis or is this a bad idea?

Ukraine has existed as a unified state for many years and has not have big problems with that.

Federalization is a method Russia wants to divide Ukraine and create a number of small weak "kingdoms". The goal is clear - to retain Ukrainian market and military industry under Russian control.

Everybody understands this. This is a very bad, more correctly, fatal idea for Ukraine. No serious pro-Ukrainian politician accepts it.

By the way, Russia is in no way a federation. All regions are strictly controlled from Moscow (the only exception is Chechnya).

There is though consideration of so-called decentralization of Ukraine, with more powers delegated to provinces, but keeping some key functions in the capital. As an successful example, Poland is viewed.

Ukrainian problems are caused by deep corruption. If the country won't find a way to bring corruption to a sustainable level, people won't see a better life.