Free Trade with South Korea

[Wilber]

So what?

If my neighbour decides to force his family to only eat vegetables from his own garden, should I do the same in my family? Moreover, if he decides to sell me some of his tomatoes at a good price, should I refuse his offer on the grounds that he forces his family to only eat vegetables from his own garden.

So you don't believe in free trade, just cheaper stuff for yourself regardless of who else has to pay the price. OK.

If you don't grow tomatoes in your garden, your neighbour can charge you whatever he wants for his and you will either pay or go without. The same goes for vehicles.

[Topaz]

What part of FREE trade is FREE...there isn't any. All these trade agreements some 50+ from the Tories MAY be good for some business but it doesn't mean its good for some workers. It's excellent for Harper's base in Alberta, the ranchers and farmers but it may not be so good for Ontario workers.

[GostHacked]

And what of consumers?

You mean customers. I despise the term 'consumer'. Want my money? Treat me like a customer, not a consumer.

What if consumers can buy cheaper Korean cars?

Big Guy, you seem to think that the purpose of life is production - and not consumption.

Well life sure should not be about consumption.

Edited March 12, 2014 by GostHacked

[GostHacked]

Wilber, the purpose of life is not production - it is consumption. We don't prepare a meal as a goal in itself - we do it so that we can eat. You don't see many people preparing food in the kitchen and throwing it down the garbage chute.

Canadians waste billions of dollars worth of food each year.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/Canadians+trash+billion+worth+food+year/9401749/story.html

Food waste not only costs money — more than $1,000 a year is thrown in the kitchen trash yearly per Canadian family — it’s a major contributor, via landfill, to the production of greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide and methane. (In the United Kingdom, it’s estimated that the carbon impact of food waste is more than 20 metric tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent emissions annually.)

Furthermore, when food is wasted, the agricultural resources used to produce the food, such as soil and water, are also lost.

The costs associated with tossing food are startlingly significant; the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations estimates that, globally, one-third of food produced to feed people is lost as it moves from field to plate. In Canada, the value of the food waste is greater than the combined Gross Domestic Product of the 32 poorest countries in the world, according to the World Bank.

It would be easy to assume that most food loss is linked to spoilage in grocery stores, or excess production at food processors or in restaurants, or careless handling by farmers and food industry truckers. But 51 per cent of food waste in Canada is generated in the home.

When you put the emphasis on production instead of consumption, you lose sight of the true purpose. And as is often the case in many affairs, that is a dangerous route of logic to take.

It should be about reducing waste.

[Wilber]

LMAO, it affects all autoworkers, but Bryan probably doesn't know that many autoworkers are temp agency workers , fulltime, much like in other countries... so yeah, it will affect those employees as well, and my guess this may also have had an impact on Chrysler choosing to stall investment in Canada, as it would likely have another risk to market share with lower foreign imports from SK. Its a tough business to be in.

Bryan probably also doesn't care about all the spinoff production, support and consumption of the local economy. But taht doesn't surprise me.

I don't get it. If you have a problem with North American auto workers, don't buy one of their products. There are lots of other choices out there. I don't understand what kind of warped ideology gets pleasure out seeing people being made unemployed.

You will still be able to buy a Chrysler product, it just won't be built in Canada. I already have one that was built in Mexico.

[GostHacked]

I don't get it. If you have a problem with North American auto workers, don't buy one of their products. There are lots of other choices out there. I don't understand what kind of warped ideology gets pleasure out seeing people being made unemployed.

You will still be able to buy a Chrysler product, it just won't be built in Canada. I already have one that was built in Mexico.

Was kind of funny to see the Cadillac commercial during the superbowl. Using a car now built in China to show the American Dream is still alive.

[Wilber]

Wilber, the purpose of life is not production - it is consumption. We don't prepare a meal as a goal in itself - we do it so that we can eat. You don't see many people preparing food in the kitchen and throwing it down the garbage chute.

When you put the emphasis on production instead of consumption, you lose sight of the true purpose. And as is often the case in many affairs, that is a dangerous route of logic to take.

First you must have food to prepare. You're not one of those who thinks milk comes from a fridge are you?

[Wilber]

Was kind of funny to see the Cadillac commercial during the superbowl. Using a car now built in China to show the American Dream is still alive.

It's interesting that even though they do build cars all over, Fiat owned Chrysler is the only manufacturer that still has a production plant in Detroit. Their "imported from Detroit" add actually has some creds.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Wilber

[hitops]

What part of FREE trade is FREE...there isn't any. All these trade agreements some 50+ from the Tories MAY be good for some business but it doesn't mean its good for some workers. It's excellent for Harper's base in Alberta, the ranchers and farmers but it may not be so good for Ontario workers.

This is just tunnel vision.

Free trade is not a zero sum game. Some people in Ontario will not like the erosion of their subsidized position. Many, many others in Ontario will benefit from cheaper products. Cheaper products means more money left over to spent in other parts of the economy.

Arguing for less free trade is incredibly short-sighted. It hurts everyone in the long term, for the sake of helping a small portion of people in the short term. It's extortion of all, for the benefit of few, who eventually lose their jobs directly as a result of that short-term benefit. Senseless. Exhibit A: Detroit

The people who argue for protectionism are the same people who argue to ban dishwashers because it puts dishwashing staff out of work. Our economy is best served by maximum efficiency, not make-work projects to satisfy small, loud interest groups at the expense of everyone else.

Edited March 13, 2014 by hitops

[August1991]

You mean customers. I despise the term 'consumer'. Want my money? Treat me like a customer, not a consumer.

Ok, customer.

Well life sure should not be about consumption.

WTF? Would you prefer a life of leisure or a life of toil? And GostHacked, what do you prefer for others? Why have trade unions?

So you don't believe in free trade, just cheaper stuff for yourself regardless of who else has to pay the price. OK.

I believe in free trade because it means cheaper stuff for me.

By the same logic, I believe in new technology because it means cheaper stuff for me.

If you don't grow tomatoes in your garden, your neighbour can charge you whatever he wants for his and you will either pay or go without. The same goes for vehicles.

There is a world competitive market for automobiles - and tomatoes. If Iceland, Quebec or Newfoundland doesn't make cars or produce tomatoes, I'm sure there's a South Korean plant or a Mexican farmer - among many others - willing to provide.

====

Years ago, there were TVs and radios marked "Made in Canada". No such TVs or radios exist today. Similarly, in 10 years or so, there will be no car factories in Canada.

In 10 years or so, Canadians will have better things to do with their time than toil in a factory making cars.

Edited March 13, 2014 by August1991

[August1991]

First you must have food to prepare. You're not one of those who thinks milk comes from a fridge are you?

Wilber, I don't produce the milk myself.

But I am perfectly aware of why I work to make the money to buy the milk.

=====

A dairy farmer may produce milk in part to put milk on his family's table. But milk will not heat his home nor clothe his children. Even dairy farmers think primarily about consumption (or being a customer) - not production.

In short, production is a means to an end - not an end in itself. If we can find a better way to produce, a better way to achieve our ends, then that is a good thing.

[August1991]

Hmm, I think you need to figure out HOW a taffif works. The purpose of a Tarrif is to attract investment INTO your country, and that is why companies like Toyota, Honda, Suzuki brought operations here. To avoid the tarrifs. Hyundai, preferred to pay the tarrif instead going for the huge capital investment required to start an NA plant.

By your logic, Madmax, we could make Canada even richer if we imposed a special tariff in Canada and forced Hyundai, for example, to manufacture cars in the Yukon.

====

Economics 101 IMV? It's better to buy a cup of coffee at $1.40 than at $1.60.

Edited March 13, 2014 by August1991

[August1991]

This is just tunnel vision....

etc.

Hitops, well said. Better than me. Edited March 13, 2014 by August1991

[Michael Hardner]

You can't argue with the basics of free trade, but who/what/where/when/how to create jobs that will replace manufacturing jobs ?

[Wilber]

Wilber, I don't produce the milk myself.

But I am perfectly aware of why I work to make the money to buy the milk.

=====

Without production, you have nothing to consume and the money you make is worthless.

Do you really think we can maintain a high standard of living in this country, doing nothing but providing services for each other without producing anything?

Edited March 13, 2014 by Wilber

[Michael Hardner]

Do you really think we can maintain a high standard of living in this country, doing nothing but providing services for each other without producing anything?

Isn't farming kind of a service ? Isn't everything kind of a service since we don't personally produce minerals, metals, or (hopefully not) milk. But I don't read the labels on things enough, so who knows.

[Wilber]

Farmers do us a service by producing a product. What exactly is it you think they are doing on their farms? You can't eat or drink their labour.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Wilber

[GostHacked]

Farmers do us a service by producing a product. What exactly is it you think they are doing on their farms? You can't eat or drink their labour.

Your last sentence does not seem to jive with the rest of your reply.

[Michael Hardner]

Farmers do us a service by producing a product. What exactly is it you think they are doing on their farms? You can't eat or drink their labour.

Eewww... I thought that cows produced the milk. No more dairy for me...

[August1991]

Without production, you have nothing to consume and the money you make is worthless.

Do you really think we can maintain a high standard of living in this country, doing nothing but providing services for each other without producing anything?

Wilbur, I live in Quebec, deal daily with nationalists of various stripes on various continents and so I am patient.

Let me try another argument with you.

In 1900, about 30 employed Canadians in 100 worked in Canada's farming sector, producing food for all Canadians. Nowadays, some 100 years later, about 2 employed Canadians in 100 work in the farming sector - producing food for all Canadians. (You can check Statistics Canada for this. It has such numbers going back over 100 years.)

Wilbur, is that good or bad? IYHO, is it good or bad that all those farm workers lost their jobs?

If we could reduce those 2 last Canadian farm workers to 0, wouldn't that even be better?

Edited March 14, 2014 by August1991

[Wilber]

If you want to look at it that way wouldn't we better off if we eliminated whatever you do?

[August1991]

If you want to look at it that way wouldn't we better off if we eliminated whatever you do?

Wilber, imagine a world where robots/computers will do all the work - and humans would only consume.

No doubt, if you could bring your great-great-grandmother back to life and let her see you today, she would be appalled with how lazy you and other modern people are.

Is it bad that we have it so easy?

Edited March 14, 2014 by August1991

[Wilber]

Wilber, imagine a world where robots/computers will do all the work - and humans would only consume.No doubt, if you could bring your great-great-grandmother back to life and let her see you today, she would be appalled with how lazy you and other modern people are.Is it bad that we have it so easy?

Why would those robots need humans?

[Bonam]

Why would those robots need humans?

By nature of their programming, the robots would be designed to serve and obey humankind. Better hope the researchers who develop these robots do it right!

[Wilber]

By nature of their programming, the robots would be designed to serve and obey humankind. Better hope the researchers who develop these robots do it right!

Ah, so they won't be doing all the work.