Big Guy Posted March 5, 2014 Report Posted March 5, 2014 . You won't have to worry about Ukraine wanting nukes. Svoboda is part of the transition government and right in their party platform they state quite clearly that they wish to become a nuclear power again. And we're not talking energy. They want weapons. I believe that they have given up their right to nukes with the 1997 partition treaty in which Russia was given certain concessions. The following can be verified through a Google search; 1) A Russian naval presence in Crimea dates to 1783 when the port city of Sevastopol was founded by Russian Prince Grigory Potemkin. Crimea was part of Russia until Nikita Khruschev gave it to Ukraine in 1954. 2) In 1997, amid the wreckage of the USSR, Russia & Ukraine signed a Partition Treaty determining the fate of the military bases and vessels in Crimea. The deal sparked widespread officer ‘defections’ to Russia and was ratified by the Russian & Ukrainian parliaments in 1999. Russia received 81.7 percent of the fleet’s ships after paying the Ukrainian government US$526.5 million. 3) The deal allowed the Russian Black Sea Fleet to stay in Crimea until 2017. This was extended by another 25 years to 2042 with a 5-year extension option in 2010. 4) Moscow annually writes off $97.75 million of Kiev’s debt for the right to use Ukrainian waters and radio frequencies, and to compensate for the Black Sea Fleet’s environmental impact. 5) The Russian navy is allowed up to - 25,000 troops, - 24 artillery systems with a caliber smaller than 100 mm, - 132 armored vehicles, and - 22 military planes, on Crimean territory. 6) Five Russian naval units are stationed in the port city of Sevastopol, in compliance with the treaty: - The 30th Surface Ship Division formed by the 11th Antisubmarine Ship Brigade. Comprises the Black Sea Fleet’s flagship guard missile cruiser Moskva as well as Kerch, Ochakov, Smetlivy, Ladny, and Pytlivy vessels, and the 197th Landing Ship Brigade, consisting of seven large amphibious vessels; - The 41st Missile Boat Brigade includes the 166th Fast Attack Craft Division, consisting of Bora and Samum hovercrafts as well as small missile ships Mirazh and Shtil, and 295th missile Boat Division; - The 247th Separate Submarine Division, consisting of two diesel submarines – B-871 Alrosa and B-380 Svyatoy Knyaz Georgy; - The 68th Harbor Defense Ship Brigade formed by 4 vessels of the 400th Antisubmarine Ship Battalion and 418 Mine Hunting Ship Division respectively.; - The 422nd Separate Hydrographic Ship Division boasts the Cheleken, Stvor, Donuzlav and GS-402 survey vessels and hydrographic boats. 7) Russia has two airbases in Crimea, in Kacha and Gvardeysky. 8) Russian coastal forces in Ukraine consist of the 1096th Separate Anti-Aircraft Missile Regiment in Sevastopol and the 810th Marine Brigade, which hosts around 2,000 marines. 9) Russian naval units are permitted to implement security measures at their permanent post as well as during re-deployments in cooperation with Ukrainian forces, in accordance with Russia’s armed forces procedures. Authorities in the Ukrainian Autonomous Republic of Crimea – where over half the population is Russian – requested Moscow’s assistance after the self-proclaimed government in Kiev introduced a law abolishing the use of languages other than Ukrainian in official circumstances. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
tinydancer Posted March 5, 2014 Report Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) I believe that they have given up their right to nukes with the 1997 partition treaty in which Russia was given certain concessions. You're right as far as promising to give up their nukes with the Budapest Memorandum in '94. I was just pointing out that this new crew who are on the transition team with key cabinet posts are a rogue element who are uber Ukrainians who in their party platform state unequivocally that they intend to return the Ukraine to a nuclear power again. And we're definitely talking weaponry not energy. And you are spot on with the rest of your post. Kudos! Edited March 5, 2014 by tinydancer Quote
ASIP Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 Before Canada leaps into the fray, perhaps we should allow the people of the Crimea that choice through a referendum. May be the situation should be returned to law and order first? Power in Crimea now is taken by a pro-Russian criminal by Russian bayonets. You can build a throne with bayonets, but you can't sit on it for long. Quote
bleeding heart Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) Aren't Svoboda a party of neo-fascists? (And no, I don't mean that as a slur for "right-wing"--I mean, literally, "neo-fascists") Edited March 6, 2014 by bleeding heart Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
ASIP Posted March 7, 2014 Report Posted March 7, 2014 Aren't Svoboda a party of neo-fascists? (And no, I don't mean that as a slur for "right-wing"--I mean, literally, "neo-fascists") I don't know what you mean "neo-fascists". Is it something like NSDAP? I do not track Ukrainian politics. There are many, many different parties. For curiosity I've just read the "Party Program" of Svoboda. http://www.budyon.org/programma-vo-svoboda-na-russkom-yazyike/ In my opinion, this is a soft nationalist party. Much less radical compared to National Front in France or some nationalist parties in Russia. Quote
waldo Posted March 7, 2014 Report Posted March 7, 2014 Clement solidarity backdrop! Uhhh... Tony, it's upside down! Imagine the attack ads if JT had done that... Quote
bleeding heart Posted March 7, 2014 Report Posted March 7, 2014 ASIP, you openly concede that your "opinion" of their political leanings is gleaned solely from their own assertions. But every other source (every other source) seems to tell a different story. We do know, for example, that the Party formed in the early nineties with an name explicitly associated with the Nazis; that their party symbol used to look astonishingly similar to the swastika; that they "prefer ethnic Ukrainians" to be members of their party; that they are openly anti-Semitic; and that skinheads and football hooligans seem to love them the most. Now, you're correct that they aren't the most extreme right-wing party in the region; but that merely speaks poorly for the region, not well for Svoboda. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
PIK Posted March 7, 2014 Report Posted March 7, 2014 The pontiac is very pro canada and they to would not want to leave. But if they voted today to leave,it would be decades before it could actually happen. Don't ya think? Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
The_Squid Posted March 7, 2014 Report Posted March 7, 2014 Clement solidarity backdrop! Uhhh... Tony, it's upside down! Imagine the attack ads if JT had done that... Maybe it is Tony Clement that is upside down....? Quote
GostHacked Posted March 7, 2014 Report Posted March 7, 2014 Clement solidarity backdrop! Uhhh... Tony, it's upside down! Imagine the attack ads if JT had done that... Hanging a flag upside down is a sometimes shown as a sign of distress. Quote
ASIP Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 ASIP, you openly concede that your "opinion" of their political leanings is gleaned solely from their own assertions. But every other source (every other source) seems to tell a different story. We do know, for example, that the Party formed in the early nineties with an name explicitly associated with the Nazis; that their party symbol used to look astonishingly similar to the swastika; that they "prefer ethnic Ukrainians" to be members of their party; that they are openly anti-Semitic; and that skinheads and football hooligans seem to love them the most. Now, you're correct that they aren't the most extreme right-wing party in the region; but that merely speaks poorly for the region, not well for Svoboda. Now there is a tense propaganda war in the Internet. I simply do not consider second-hand sources. It is very easy to digest pure BS. Try to get original documents. Not interpretations of somebody you don't know who. I believe you are grown enough do not make conclusions based on emblems. I have no idea what that Svoboda party is. My understanding is that they do obey Ukrainian constitution and can attract some votes in elections supervised by international observers. I know that in every country you can find extremists on both sides of political spectrum. It's a law of nature. Quote
bleeding heart Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 Yes, there is lots of propaganda going around...like, for example, those who claim that a quick scan of "the Party's Platform" can give you a sober assessment. Like I said, ASIP, EVERY source I looked at--including Wikipedia--sheds some disturbing light on Svoboda. But I am perfectly willing (happy, in fact) to be proven wrong. Do you have any good sources (the Party's own claims carry zero information, as with all self-interested parties....so that one's a non-starter) that counter the charges of fascism, and the charges of anti-Semitism? Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
ASIP Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 EVERY source I looked at--including Wikipedia--sheds some disturbing light on Svoboda. You may look for one million sources and all of them be second or third-hand ones, including Wikipedia. If you want to have true information you have to go to original Ukrainian sources. How proficient are you in Ukrainian or at least Russian language? Do you have any good sources (the Party's own claims carry zero information, as with all self-interested parties....so that one's a non-starter) that counter the charges of fascism, and the charges of anti-Semitism? I do not have any proof of " fascism and anti-Semitism" of this party at the first place. Seems, neither do Ukrainian law enforcement agencies. In logic, you cannot prove what does not exist. Quote
bleeding heart Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 Ah. Since I cannot speak Ukrainain or Russian, I can never get the real info on the subject. Awesome. I guess I'll have to rely on ASIP, who reads "party platforms," to give me the inside scoop. by the way, I don't know why you're so sensitive about these far-right losers anyway? You said you knew very little about them. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
ASIP Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 Ah. Since I cannot speak Ukrainain or Russian, I can never get the real info on the subject. Unfortunately, in this particular case, that's true. And not only for you. Awesome. I guess I'll have to rely on ASIP, who reads "party platforms," to give me the inside scoop. I never claimed I knew everything, I accept I can make mistakes. Consider me as just additional source of information, with certain additional capabilities. by the way, I don't know why you're so sensitive about these far-right losers anyway? You said you knew very little about them. I didn't know them at all before your started posting stereotyped statements and making (as I saw it) generalizations. Quote
bleeding heart Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 Who was I stereotyping, though? I have been referring explicitly and only to a single political party, who may or may not have fascist sympathies. Now, it's true that every party get some crazies involved, who say unfortunate things...like the Svoboda member who ranted about the "Jewish mafia"....and in some cases, such folks are expelled form the party (as that particular gentleman was). So far, so good. But there appears to be a pattern with these guys...if I'm wrong, like I say, that's excellent. But (full disclosure: I'm talking Wikipedia here, and there may well be disputes as to the accuracy) the list of controversies--statements about Jews, statements about the Nazis, admiring references to men like Goebbels (more than one over the years) have aroused concern about this alleged pattern. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
ASIP Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 But (full disclosure: I'm talking Wikipedia here, and there may well be disputes as to the accuracy) the list of controversies--statements about Jews, statements about the Nazis, admiring references to men like Goebbels (more than one over the years) have aroused concern about this alleged pattern. Again, I have no idea about this party, but what I read about them in English Wikipedia smells being not true for me. Quote
bleeding heart Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 Well, I can't speak to the accuracy of it. I don't know it's all true, or partly true. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
Argus Posted March 9, 2014 Report Posted March 9, 2014 Who was I stereotyping, though? I have been referring explicitly and only to a single political party, who may or may not have fascist sympathies. If you're suggesting the thugs in the street in Crimea are worried about fascists I find it awfully hard to credit given their behavior hasn't been much different from what you'd expect of fascists ie, closing down the press and beating up anyone who disagrees with them. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Big Guy Posted March 9, 2014 Report Posted March 9, 2014 Groups of people in Northern Ukraine storm the parliament building, toss out some elected officials, establish a new government and celebrate their success. Some observers call them patriots while others call them thugs. Groups of people in the Crimea storm their government building, toss out some elected officials, establish a new government and celebrate their success. Some observers call them patriots while others call them thugs. I submit that there are patriots and thugs in both cases. I suggest that the point of view depends on who you consider to be the good guys and the bad guys. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
ASIP Posted March 9, 2014 Report Posted March 9, 2014 Groups of people in Northern Ukraine storm the parliament building, toss out some elected officials, establish a new government and celebrate their success. Some observers call them patriots while others call them thugs. Groups of people in the Crimea storm their government building, toss out some elected officials, establish a new government and celebrate their success. Some observers call them patriots while others call them thugs. I submit that there are patriots and thugs in both cases. I suggest that the point of view depends on who you consider to be the good guys and the bad guys. In both cases it is Russia behind with attacks. A week ago there was a series of orchestrated sieges of provincial legislation buildings in Southern Ukraine by crowds agitated by Russian provocateurs and local Russian nationalists. It is very easy to cross the Ukrainian-Russian border. It was well documented (buses with Russian license plates parked nearby, the same people agitating the crowd in different cities . After the provocateurs achieved their goals - putting a Russian flag on the building they withdrawn. Ukrainian police now is extremely cautious and do not use force. Gradually, new administrations take control in regions.Now Russia is able to disrupt order only in three eastern regions having very long border with Russia. In Crimea the thugs were able to grab power because they are protected by Russian guns. Your last suggestion is valid for people who have blinds on their eyes. "He may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch." A conscious person must tell good from bad. "Know Them By Their Deeds." Quote
Argus Posted March 10, 2014 Report Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) Groups of people in Northern Ukraine storm the parliament building, toss out some elected officials, establish a new government and celebrate their success. Some observers call them patriots while others call them thugs. Groups of people in the Crimea storm their government building, toss out some elected officials, establish a new government and celebrate their success. Some observers call them patriots while others call them thugs. I submit that there are patriots and thugs in both cases. I suggest that the point of view depends on who you consider to be the good guys and the bad guys. So let me get this straight. Demonstrators in Kyev get shot by police snipers, engage in days of back and forth struggles with police, and eventually, parliament impeaches the president and he leaves. You seriously are going to equate this to masked Russian troops taking over the Crimean parliament, then arranging a secret vote (or so we're told) which 'fires' the legitimate government and declares Crimea a part of Russia? And by the way, the crowds in Kyev weren't beating journalists and anyone who disagreed with them like the thugs in Crimea. Edited March 10, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Big Guy Posted March 10, 2014 Report Posted March 10, 2014 So let me get this straight. Demonstrators in Kyev get shot by police snipers, engage in days of back and forth struggles with police, and eventually, parliament impeaches the president and he leaves. You seriously are going to equate this to masked Russian troops taking over the Crimean parliament, then arranging a secret vote (or so we're told) which 'fires' the legitimate government and declares Crimea a part of Russia? And by the way, the crowds in Kyev weren't beating journalists and anyone who disagreed with them like the thugs in Crimea. I equate the two situations in that both movements have thugs and nationalists involved. I will admit that most are nationalists so perhaps democracy should dominate? If the majority of people in the Crimea want to stay with Russian rule then so be it. If the majority of the rest of the Ukraine want to stay with the new government then so be it. The challenge is how to evaluate majority opinion. If the coming Russian referendum indicates a majority wish for annexation to Russia then the West will dismiss this referendum as inaccurate and forced. If the current Ukrainian government organizes its own referendum and the results are favourable to the existing condition then the Russians will reject it as run by an illegitimate government. After all, the previous government was not voted out, it was pushed out by mobs (well intentioned mobs). This is not the way democracies are supposed to run. A complicating factor is that the current government in Ukraine has indicated that it has no intention of allowing any referendum and it claims that Crimea is part of the Ukraine - and will remain part of the Ukraine notwithstanding the wishes of the majority in Crimea. The topic of this thread is Harper and Ukraine. I believe that Canada should not be taking sides until we have some way of knowing the wishes of the majority in Crimea. That, I believe, would be the most appropriate stand even if it would open up questions as to the way we deal with Quebec. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Argus Posted March 11, 2014 Report Posted March 11, 2014 The topic of this thread is Harper and Ukraine. I believe that Canada should not be taking sides until we have some way of knowing the wishes of the majority in Crimea. That, I believe, would be the most appropriate stand even if it would open up questions as to the way we deal with Quebec. We have no evidence to indicate the residents of the Crimea had any desire to leave Ukraine prior to the Russian government sending in troops and taking over their parliament. As to the referendum, it will not offer, among its choises "stay in Ukraine". The choices will be to join Russia or be independant (which means Russia's in all but name). Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
GostHacked Posted March 11, 2014 Report Posted March 11, 2014 So let me get this straight. Demonstrators in Kyev get shot by police snipers, engage in days of back and forth struggles with police, and eventually, parliament impeaches the president and he leaves. From what I understand is that the snipers were firing on civilian protesters and police personnel. They were targeting both sides. To me that looks like a third party element. Now the question is, who are they, and who is supporting them? Quote
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