ASIP Posted March 7, 2014 Report Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) ASIP, I don't claim any expertise on this matter. However, I understand that the population of Crimea is mostly ethnic Russians. If there were a referendum, would Crimea vote to split and join Russia? And if Krushchev didn't gift Crimea to Ukraine, what happened in 1954? Actually my question was addressed to August1991. Yes, ethnically Crimea includes about 60% Russians, 25% Ukrainians, 12.5% Crimean Tatars. Not all Russians want to join Russia. If a referendum would be with no Russian troops in streets and polling stations, say a month ago, no way Crimea would split. But with is purely speculation. According to the Ukrainian constitution, referendums on country integrity must be held in the entire country. What is being organized in Crimea is a farce. Transfer of Crimea to Ukraine was initiated by Stalin, though with participation of Khrushchev (he was a PM of Ukraine in that time). It was caused, as his son says, by economical and agricultural reasons. The transfer was synchronized with 300-year anniversary of Ukraine joining Russia in 1954. There were big celebrations. It was a big deal. Transfer was performed strictly in accordance with constitution of the USSR: there were a chain of laws, acts and agreements signed by parliaments of Russia, Ukraine and Soviet Union. In 1954 Khrushchev was a leader of the Communist party and held no position in any government body. There is no his signature on the official transfer acts. Edited March 7, 2014 by ASIP Quote
ASIP Posted March 7, 2014 Report Posted March 7, 2014 Sochi isn't a port, it's a resort town on a beach. There is no real harbour, just a breakwater protecting a marina with a few yachts. Actually, Sochi has a seaport used by cruise liners, capable to accommodate pretty big ships. The terminal building is just beautiful. And yes, Black Sea shore in Russia does not have good harbours. Russian Navy is stationed in Novorossiysk. Sevastopol naval base is not a root cause of the crisis, Russia has cheap lease with very good conditions until 2042. Quite opposite, this aggression will inevitably result in revision of the lease agreement by Ukrainian parliament. Quote
Wilber Posted March 7, 2014 Report Posted March 7, 2014 Actually, Sochi has a seaport used by cruise liners, capable to accommodate pretty big ships. The terminal building is just beautiful. And yes, Black Sea shore in Russia does not have good harbours. Russian Navy is stationed in Novorossiysk. Sevastopol naval base is not a root cause of the crisis, Russia has cheap lease with very good conditions until 2042. Quite opposite, this aggression will inevitably result in revision of the lease agreement by Ukrainian parliament. A few large cruise ships may be able to visit for a short period but there are no real facilities to support them. Other than the nice terminal, no better than a place like Skagway. I'll take your word on the rest. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Shady Posted March 7, 2014 Report Posted March 7, 2014 Sochi isn't a port, it's a resort town on a beach. There is no real harbour, just a breakwater protecting a marina with a few yachts. Ports don't grow like trees, they need to be built. But the biggest requirement is access to the ocean. What kind of port do you think $51 billion dollars could buy? Quote
Wilber Posted March 7, 2014 Report Posted March 7, 2014 Ports don't grow like trees, they need to be built. But the biggest requirement is access to the ocean. What kind of port do you think $51 billion dollars could buy? Ports are built where geography makes them the most feasible. A place with a natural harbour would be at the top of the list. A sandy beach exposed to the open sea would be near the bottom. It would take a ton of money to build a facility capable of maintaining a large naval force in such a place. May be a mute point because it looks like they might have such a place in Novorossiysk. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Shady Posted March 7, 2014 Report Posted March 7, 2014 Ports are built where geography makes them the most feasible. A place with a natural harbour would be at the top of the list. A sandy beach exposed to the open sea would be near the bottom. It would take a ton of money to build a facility capable of maintaining a large naval force in such a place. May be a mute point because it looks like they might have such a place in Novorossiysk. Right. Because Russia has no other access to the ocean. So it's ok for their invasion. I don't get you people at all. Quote
Wilber Posted March 7, 2014 Report Posted March 7, 2014 Right. Because Russia has no other access to the ocean. So it's ok for their invasion. I don't get you people at all. Never said it was OK or that what Putin is doing is right, just that it is more complicated than many think. I think the way he is going about this is dead wrong and will end up doing more damage to Russia than it is worth. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
dre Posted March 7, 2014 Report Posted March 7, 2014 Right. Because Russia has no other access to the ocean. So it's ok for their invasion. I don't get you people at all. There is no invasion. Crimea is no longer Ukrainian soil, it's government voted to join Russia, and a referendum has been sheduled to decide its future... its people will probably do the same. The people and government of Crimea welcomed the presense of Russian troops. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
The_Squid Posted March 7, 2014 Report Posted March 7, 2014 There is no invasion. Crimea is no longer Ukrainian soil, it's government voted to join Russia, and a referendum has been sheduled to decide its future... its people will probably do the same. The people and government of Crimea welcomed the presense of Russian troops. Do you get your news from Russian state television? It's gov't voted to join Russia, after they were invaded... a referendum done at the barrel of an AK-47 is hardly going to be a democratic process... Quote
Wilber Posted March 7, 2014 Report Posted March 7, 2014 There is no invasion. Crimea is no longer Ukrainian soil, it's government voted to join Russia, and a referendum has been sheduled to decide its future... its people will probably do the same. The people and government of Crimea welcomed the presense of Russian troops. Except that one of the terms of the treaty Russia signed when Ukraine agreed to get rid of its nukes, was that Russia would not interfere in Ukrainian internal affairs. That is why I think this will do Russia more harm than good. It has shown that it doesn't honour its treaties or bother with the UN in disputes with its neighbours, something it demands from other nations. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
dre Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 Do you get your news from Russian state television? It's gov't voted to join Russia, after they were invaded... a referendum done at the barrel of an AK-47 is hardly going to be a democratic process... No Iv never watched any Russian media in my life. The crimian parliament and most of the population are staunchly pro russian and always have been. Tell me what evidence you have that a referendum will done "at the Barrel of a gun"? Theres no need for Russia to interfere with the referendum because its a slam dunk anyways. Crimeans dont want to be part of the Ukraine. And if Russian troops hadnt been there, they would never have been ALLOWED to have a referendum in the first place. Slice it however you want... Crimea is no longer part of the Ukraine, and if you doubt that Im happy to place a wager on it. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 Except that one of the terms of the treaty Russia signed when Ukraine agreed to get rid of its nukes, was that Russia would not interfere in Ukrainian internal affairs. That is why I think this will do Russia more harm than good. It has shown that it doesn't honour its treaties or bother with the UN in disputes with its neighbours, something it demands from other nations. Crimea is no longer an internal affair for the Ukraine. Its an automous region with its own government and parliament, that parliament fired the so called Ukrainian government. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
The_Squid Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 (edited) No Iv never watched any Russian media in my life. The crimian parliament and most of the population are staunchly pro russian and always have been. Tell me what evidence you have that a referendum will done "at the Barrel of a gun"? Theres no need for Russia to interfere with the referendum because its a slam dunk anyways. Crimeans dont want to be part of the Ukraine. And if Russian troops hadnt been there, they would never have been ALLOWED to have a referendum in the first place. Slice it however you want... Crimea is no longer part of the Ukraine, and if you doubt that Im happy to place a wager on it. The situation where Russia has invaded kind of speaks for itself, no? No, Crimea does not want to be part of Russia. And I will even cite a recent survey. Go to page 34 of the following report: http://www.iri.org/sites/default/files/2011%20November%2021%20Survey%20of%20Crimean%20Public%20Opinion,%20September%2020-October%202,%202011.pdf Cite your source where the Crimean population wants to be part of Russia. Edited March 8, 2014 by The_Squid Quote
Wilber Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 Crimea is no longer an internal affair for the Ukraine. Its an automous region with its own government and parliament, that parliament fired the so called Ukrainian government. The issue isn't Crimea's position within Ukraine, that is for Crimea to sort out with the rest of Ukraine. The issue is Russian involvement. Would you favour foreign military involvement in the Quebec sovereignty debate? Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 (edited) The issue isn't Crimea's position within Ukraine, that is for Crimea to sort out with the rest of Ukraine. The issue is Russian involvement. Would you favour foreign military involvement in the Quebec sovereignty debate? Yep...I was thinking the same thing. How many here would welcome that circumstance ? Was Canada's "state television" used to discourage Quebec's separation in 1995 ? Edited March 8, 2014 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
ASIP Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 Tell me what evidence you have that a referendum will done "at the Barrel of a gun"? Theres no need for Russia to interfere with the referendum because its a slam dunk anyways. Crimeans dont want to be part of the Ukraine. There have you been for some time? There tons of photos and video clips. Russian soldiers with guns are at every corner in Southern Crimea. 30,000 of them. For example: http://images.yandex.ru/yandsearch?text=%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B6%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%B5+%D0%BB%D1%8E%D0%B4%D0%B8+%D0%B2+%D0%BA%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%BC%D1%83 Quote
GostHacked Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 Crimea is no longer an internal affair for the Ukraine. Its an automous region with its own government and parliament, that parliament fired the so called Ukrainian government. Not quite sure about that. Is the new leader of Crimea hand picked by Putin himself? Quote
dre Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 The issue isn't Crimea's position within Ukraine, that is for Crimea to sort out with the rest of Ukraine. The issue is Russian involvement. Would you favour foreign military involvement in the Quebec sovereignty debate? No but Im western Canadian. If i was french and lived in Quebec, and the Canadian government had just voted to deny our right to have french as an official language, and then a pro french PM was removed as the result of violent english speaking protesters and a mysterious armed contingent storming the parliament... and an anti french PM was installed without a single citizen voting for him.... then yeah. I might feel comforted by foreign troops especially if they were going to let me have a referendum on my future which the previous central government had said I had now right to have. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 Not quite sure about that. Is the new leader of Crimea hand picked by Putin himself? No.They were elected in a system of mixed member proportional representation. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 ... then yeah. I might feel comforted by foreign troops especially if they were going to let me have a referendum on my future which the previous central government had said I had now right to have. So much for the "Iraq arguments"....ink stained index fingers for everybody ! Hooray for foreign intervention. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
dre Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 So much for the "Iraq arguments"....ink stained index fingers for everybody ! Hooray for foreign intervention. So much for relevant examples.... Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Wilber Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 No but Im western Canadian. If i was french and lived in Quebec, and the Canadian government had just voted to deny our right to have french as an official language, and then a pro french PM was removed as the result of violent english speaking protesters and a mysterious armed contingent storming the parliament... and an anti french PM was installed without a single citizen voting for him.... then yeah. I might feel comforted by foreign troops especially if they were going to let me have a referendum on my future which the previous central government had said I had now right to have. Putin is your champion of democracy? Your standards are very low. Living in Quebec and speaking french does not make you French, In 1763 France gave up Canada in exchange for Guadeloupe, so what foreign military would be acceptable and who's interests do you think they would be looking out for? Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
dre Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 Putin is your champion of democracy? Your standards are very low. Living in Quebec and speaking french does not make you French, In 1763 France gave up Canada in exchange for Guadeloupe, so what foreign military would be acceptable and who's interests do you think they would be looking out for? No putin is a thug, and I never said any different. I said if I was a Russian in Crimea i would be comforted by the presense of the Russian military at this time. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Wilber Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 (edited) No putin is a thug, and I never said any different. I said if I was a Russian in Crimea i would be comforted by the presense of the Russian military at this time. Why? What violence has there been against Russian speakers in Crimea? You would be comforted by streets full of troops who wear no insignia or show their faces? I wouldn't. Edited March 8, 2014 by Wilber Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
dre Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 Why? What violence has there been against Russian speakers in Crimea? You would be comforted by streets full of troops who wear no insignia or show their faces? I wouldn't. I already told you why. 1. A pro-russian politician popular with Crimeans was removed as a result of a violent uprising (quite possibly orchestrated by foreigners), and an anti-russian leader was installed without a single person voting for him. 2. The Ukrainian government pass a law denying them to make Russian an official language in Crimea even though most people there speak it. 3. The presense of Russian troops makes it impossible for the Ukrainian army to prevent a referendum on their future as was unanimously agreed apon by the democratically elected parliament in Crimea. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
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