Consensual Sex and the definition of Rape

[Argus]

Great. This thread has now completely turned into "FEMINISTS BAD! MEN ARE NEVER RAPED!" The enlightenment on this forum never ceases to amaze me. Argus's comment that "male culture" is necessarily a culture about ignoring women as thinking, feeling, and autonomous human beings,

I never made any such statement, nor even hinted at it. I was merely acknowledging that men, particularly young men, have always and will always, discuss attractive young women of their acquaintance in a baldly sexual and physical manner amongst themselves.

But I understand that reality has never even dared to suggest it might make an appearance in any of your teary, hysterical rants on subjects like this.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Argus

[Argus]

It's idiotic. Men on this very thread are convinced that false allegations of rape is the crucial issue.

No, that's your strawman. If I have 'crucial issue' here it would be the desire of certain parties to both expand the definition of rape and to demonize men.

[Argus]

It's not his "male culture", it's that of some (most?) people who purport there's such a thing as "rape culture". Of course, of those people, one's definition of "rape culture" is not necessarily the same as another's. But, there are enough people who believe "male culture" is close enough to "rape culture" to get out and protest the foundation of men's centres on university campuses, wanting them barred because they are, in their minds, incubators of "rape culture".

Around these parts, there are two 'big' stories the last day or two. One is about the University of Ottawa hockey team. It seems some members of the team are accused (though no one has yet been charged) of being involved in a sexual assault of some kind (nobody is talking) on a road trip. The university's response was to suspend the entire hockey program. The second issue is a very vocal female member of the university's student council screaming and howling because five young men discussed her in a sexual way on some facebook page. Two of them were members of the same council, and have, of course, resigned in disgrace due to their 'menacing' and 'threatening' sexual comments. There is now a big talk about 'rape culture' and thus the new committee to look into ways to eliminate this 'rape culture' on campus. One person interviewed demanded all men on campus undergo sensitivity training.

Now while I agree that talking sexually about someone on facebook was stupid, these guys weren't doing anything guys haven't been doing forever. They were just forgetting, as so many have, that facebook is PUBLIC, and that others might read it and so it might get back to the person being discussed, who they knew. Dumb, yes, but nothing to do with rape.

[Boges]

The second issue is a very vocal female member of the university's student council screaming and howling because five young men discussed her in a sexual way on some facebook page.

Not defending it but it's sort of ironic considering the genesis of Facebook was "Hot or Not" software.

I think we're getting in very murky waters if commenting on the attractiveness of a woman is considered a part of some sort of "rape culture".

Edited March 7, 2014 by Boges

[Michael Hardner]

I find it really strange that you two are saying that this is nothing to do with rape culture, or that they were merely commenting on attractiveness of women without the facts being out there.

I think that when men step up to defend other men without facts being known, it indeed restricts dialogue and creates a separate culture of some kind.

[bleeding heart]

I can't speak to the specifics of this case, but as it was reported on CBC, the men were having discussions about "sexually punishing" the woman in question.

But, as Argus points out, "boys will be boys," and when they make jokes about committing rape, the woman in question is "very vocal" and is "howling" about it.

[Black Dog]

Not defending it but it's sort of ironic considering the genesis of Facebook was "Hot or Not" software.

I think we're getting in very murky waters if commenting on the attractiveness of a woman is considered a part of some sort of "rape culture".

The online conversation — a copy of which was obtained by The Canadian Press — included references to sexual activities some of the five individuals wrote they would like to engage in with Roy, including oral and anal sex, as well as suggestions that she suffered from sexually transmitted diseases.

"Someone punish her with their shaft," wrote one of the individuals at one point. "I do believe that with my reputation I would destroy her," wrote another.

Boys will be boys, eh, LOL.

[Boges]

What type of culture is that? It's not a culture that condones or even glorifies rape.

In the West we're surrounded by sexuality. Why is it taboo to have an opinion on sexuality?

Here in Canada we have people saying prostitution should be legal because it will "empower women". But saying "That chick is Hot" is victimization?

[Boges]

Boys will be boys, eh, LOL.

Nope, Argus framed the case a lot differently than that.

No defense of saying those things online about someone.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Boges

[Boges]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/saint-mary-s-university-frosh-chant-cheers-underage-sex-1.1399616

Here's the type of youth culture that we should find troubling. It seems to be pervasive with the coming Millennial generation.

I hope this is the real "rape culture" we're talking about.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Boges

[TimG]

I think that when men step up to defend other men without facts being known, it indeed restricts dialogue and creates a separate culture of some kind.

Doesn't that go both ways? I had a poster call me a pervert by private message because I happened to post things in this thread that she disagreed with. That kind of harassment any worse than posting sexually suggestive comments on facebook?

[Argus]

Last point: the masculinity definition cited seems pretty outrageous...until you see it next to Argus's "men's culture" which includes ogling women (ie. making them into sexual objects) swapping racist or sexist or homophobic jokes and discouraging emotional expression as a sign of weakness.

Most of the above is a straw man created by you.

[Black Dog]

What type of culture is that? It's not a culture that condones or even glorifies rape.

In the West we're surrounded by sexuality. Why is it taboo to have an opinion on sexuality?

Here in Canada we have people saying prostitution should be legal because it will "empower women". But saying "That chick is Hot" is victimization?

Saying to your buddy "that chick is hot" is one thing. You'd probably think hollering "I think your hot" at the chick in question would be unacceptable, but they're part of the same continuum.

Also, I have never heard anyone say that they should legalize prostitution to empower women, but even if that were the case, I trust you can see the difference between not legally punishing women who choose to use their bodies to make money and someone else making sexual comments. Strange comparison indeed.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/saint-mary-s-university-frosh-chant-cheers-underage-sex-1.1399616

Here's the type of youth culture that we should find troubling. It seems to be pervasive with the coming Millennial generation.

I hope this is the real "rape culture" we're talking about.

Well that's part of it.

How about prison rape and jokes about it? A huge social problem, especially in the states where so many people are incarcerated, but society at large thinks it's just hilarious (presumably because prisoners are bad guys and thus deserve it). Or is forced sodomy just "male culture?" The line between the two can get so, uh, blurred.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Black Dog

[Argus]

I find it really strange that you two are saying that this is nothing to do with rape culture, or that they were merely commenting on attractiveness of women without the facts being out there.

When young men talk about sex and young women it is rarely something fit for public eyes. There is a lot of macho braggadocio and deliberate crudeness used. But it's essentially meaningless.

[Michael Hardner]

Doesn't that go both ways?

I think so, yes.

De-militarized language and careful discussion, along with general politeness will get us through this more easily than name calling and aggressive provocation. That is, for those who are looking to make peace and move forward.

Politicians, trouble makers, and the MSM notwithstanding.

[Argus]

Saying to your buddy "that chick is hot" is one thing. You'd probably think hollering "I think your hot" at the chick in question would be unacceptable, but they're part of the same continuum.

When discussing a girl 'hot' is by far the cleanest and most vanilla term you'd ever hear.

I remember reading someone once, and I don't remember who said it, to the effect that if women had any idea what fantasies their fathers, husbands, brothers and boyfriends had they'd run screaming into the night.

Mind you, women have an awful lot of nasty and dark sexual fantasies, too, but for some reason society seems to regard this as empowering as opposed to menacing or threatening.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

When young men talk about sex and young women it is rarely something fit for public eyes. There is a lot of macho braggadocio and deliberate crudeness used. But it's essentially meaningless.

Your opinion will be added to the mix... and something will be worked out.

The thing is, there aren't too many men who will stand up to defend the right for offensive language. Not threatening, but even offensive.

[Argus]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/saint-mary-s-university-frosh-chant-cheers-underage-sex-1.1399616

Here's the type of youth culture that we should find troubling. It seems to be pervasive with the coming Millennial generation.

I hope this is the real "rape culture" we're talking about.

Meh. I remember the froshes having to chant about their lust for sheep and goats. The whole idea behind this sort of thing is stupidity, both doing and saying stupid things. I recall the engineer froshes having to dress as ballerinas once and offer to polish shoes. People shouldn't take this seriously.

[Argus]

Your opinion will be added to the mix... and something will be worked out.

The thing is, there aren't too many men who will stand up to defend the right for offensive language. Not threatening, but even offensive.

I think people should say whatever they want to their friends, but not on a public forum where the object of discussion could learn of it. And whether I agree or disagree with the things they say or the way they say them is irrelevant to their absolute right of free speech. It's nothing more than vocalized fantasies, and we have all had sexual fantasies about certain people, be they the girl who sits on the bus near you, or the girl in your Algebra class, or your friend's sister. The objects of those fantasies would likely be horrified by them, but young men (and not so young) have been having such fantasies forever. Suggesting this makes them potential rapists is idiotic.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Argus

[Boges]

Well that's part of it.

How about prison rape and jokes about it? A huge social problem, especially in the states where so many people are incarcerated, but society at large thinks it's just hilarious (presumably because prisoners are bad guys and thus deserve it). Or is forced sodomy just "male culture?" The line between the two can get so, uh, blurred.

Will that's the other end of the pendulum isn't it? See the Hockey team being suspended for some sort of sexual assault.

In a testosterone filled, environment weakness by men is often not accepted.

The whole Miami Dolphins bully scandal comes to mind as well. No easy answers here. Hazing can be a huge problem, but in an environment where you supposed be a "strong" person, is it tolerable.

[Boges]

Meh. I remember the froshes having to chant about their lust for sheep and goats. The whole idea behind this sort of thing is stupidity, both doing and saying stupid things. I recall the engineer froshes having to dress as ballerinas once and offer to polish shoes. People shouldn't take this seriously.

See the problems with Hazing. What if you don't support such language? Doesn't that make you a target?

Herd mentality?

[bleeding heart]

Black Dog, I certainly take your point about the presumed "hilarity" of prison rape jokes. Or, often beyond jokes, as I've heard people (and seen it in a discussion here on MLW, once, incidentally) that it's a form of "rough justice" and that convicts "deserve" it.

I suppose such moral luminaries are unaware that they are siding with predators against the weak....predators who do not rape other inmates for reasons of "justice," obviously, but rather because the perpetrators are, well, rapists.

[Argus]

See the problems with Hazing. What if you don't support such language? Doesn't that make you a target?

Herd mentality?

Nobody made them take part in these activities, and no one was stopping them from walking away.

All I'm saying is that young people have been doing and saying stupid stuff for a long time, and most of it is essentially meaningless, not menacing.

[Boges]

Nobody made them take part in these activities, and no one was stopping them from walking away.All I'm saying is that young people have been doing and saying stupid stuff for a long time, and most of it is essentially meaningless, not menacing.

I think you don't take into consideration a youth's want to be part of a group.

[Michael Hardner]

And whether I agree or disagree with the things they say or the way they say them is irrelevant to their absolute right of free speech.

You do have the right of free speech but not without repercussions. I don't think speech makes you a rapist, but speech does make a culture.