Ukraine crisis

[bjre]

No one knows how many people were killed recently in Ukraine.

But if Russian appear there, all news will full of it.

News = lies.

ABC News = ABC lies

CBS News = CBS lies

NBC News = NBC lies

CBC News = CBC lies

......

They all have the same content.

Too few people are not brain-washed.

[On Guard for Thee]

It appears that you all view that Big Guy is clueless as to border procedures on the Russian side of Ukraine, that he gullible enough to believe Russian propaganda and that "280 white 18-wheelers are needed only for bringing a thousand of Russian military personal inside Ukraine officially. Once they are there, let's provocations begin."

Good for you. Let us see what happens over the next few weeks.

You folks obviously know far more than Big Guy about what is happening on the ground then why even bother dealing with this delusional, gullible and misinformed poster?

Unless in the next few weeks you may be proven to be absolutely wrong.

I am looking forward to some verified information coming from that area.

Meanwhile. this "gullible" poster is not interested in trading insulting posts.

I don't know why you would take it so personally. I don't find it insulting that I tried to point out to you getting one pickup sized truck across a lengthy border is probably a bit easier than 280 or so large transport trucks.

[Big Guy]

I don't know why you would take it so personally. I don't find it insulting that I tried to point out to you getting one pickup sized truck across a lengthy border is probably a bit easier than 280 or so large transport trucks.

I guess it is based on my aversion to the confrontational aspect of any discussion of serious issues on this site. It appears to me that posters who have been on this board for a long time have argued themselves into a knee-jerk defensive reaction on any topic based not on a position but on the source. Posters have allowed themselves to be backed into a left or right label, pro or anti Russia or Ukraine or pro or anti Israel or whatever.

When any serious thread starts to deteriorate into;

“no credibility”, “naive”, “gullible”, “hypocrite”, “Now there's a stupid statement if ever there was one.”, “more nonsense”, “you should be ashamed”, “full of crap”, “you just don't get it”, “ It's all propaganda”, “you zealous left wingers”, “you zealous right wingers”, “you whine”, “its disgusting”, “Your tinfoil musings are ridiculous.”, “Your link is a garbage web site”, “people like you”, “Are you a Russian hireling or one of Putin's useful idiots? “, crazy conspiracy wacko cites”, “stop trying to make excuses”, “This statement is just plain false.”, “Lol you a commie? “, “Stop spreading myths.”, “And you support brutal dictatorships, right?”, “Conclude whatever you wish...you are often wrong about such things”, “This may well be the DUMBEST comparison anyone ...”, “Get real.”, “ You obviously have this huge chip on your shoulder because”, “No one thinks otherwise. But “, “You are a Jew hater.”, “you anti-semites” , “Bullshit”, “Typical bleating and wretching.”, “ This entire post was nothing but a diatribe against”, “your post is devoid of any substance what-so-ever”,

then I begin to wonder why people bother to take the time.

Except for one poster, I respect the views of all who take the time to express their views. I disagree with many but would not attempt to insult them

Now this thread - I think it is pretty obvious that this is far more a public relations move by Putin than any humanitarian aspect. The rebels have been getting supplies very easily from somewhere. I don't think that somewhere is Kiev.

I continue to watch this chess game and appreciate good moves - from both sides.

[Big Guy]

Watching the news this morning. All channels are showing the 200 + Russian humanitarian aid trucks lined up and waiting to be inspected at the border.

BTW Looks like some publications share the opinion of Big Guy;

"Putin's PR coup"

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21612236-russia-offers-send-aid-eastern-ukraine-putins-pr-coup

[Argus]

It's not going to end well but things have escalated to a point of no return as there is no honourable retreat for either side.

I don't see how Ukraine can retreat. The longer the Russians are in control of eastern Ukraine the more likely they are to simply annex it. As for Putin, he has no honour.

[Argus]

No one knows how many people were killed recently in Ukraine.

But if Russian appear there, all news will full of it.

News = lies.

ABC News = ABC lies

CBS News = CBS lies

NBC News = NBC lies

CBC News = CBC lies

......

They all have the same content.

Too few people are not brain-washed.

Sorry, but aren't you the guy who is the constant apologist for Communist China?

[Big Guy]

It's not going to end well but things have escalated to a point of no return as there is no honourable retreat for either side.

Found this interesting presentation as to the ongoing battle and borders;

http://www.kyivpost.com/media/images/2014/08/16/p18vffvbit1ol81or21n5k4nr2t54/original.jpg

[Big Guy]

Looks like Big Guy is not the only one questioning the Harper decision on Russian sanctions;

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/08/16/terence-corcoran-should-businesses-foot-the-bill-for-canadas-sanctions-war-with-russia/

[bjre]

Sorry, but aren't you the guy who is the constant apologist for Communist China?

You are using the same skill as media. Why I said new=lies? Because they don’t talk about real problems, when big issue comes that is not help their profit, they try to move topic to another place, try to change focus. Most time I talk about China is because people like you try to hijack the topic. China is a another topic, China need not my apology.

Western media is liars, because they always focus on the part that helps their profit, ignore others, you are the same as western media.

[Solidarity]

Found this interesting presentation as to the ongoing battle and borders;

http://www.kyivpost.com/media/images/2014/08/16/p18vffvbit1ol81or21n5k4nr2t54/original.jpg

Would just like to caution that the Kyiv post is quite probably the most pro-central Ukrainian gov't news site on the planet. Personally I consider the organization completely biased, to the same level as many consider RT or Pravda to be biased in favor of Russia. If you check in on the Kyiv post a few times the bias will likely be visible even from their headlines (the top5 stories on the front page of the website).

Obviously I don't really know what the situation on the ground is, but I believe there are some more accurate resources available to see the ongoing military action.

http://militarymaps.info/

http://liveuamap.com/

The situation around Luhansk certainly seems to be reaching a critical stage, however over the last week or so a lot of ground was actually recovered in the southern rebel territories. A week ago the Ukrainian army was threatening to cut off Donetsk completely as their forces occupied shakhtarsk and were even able to cut off the road link briefly at Krasnyi Luch. It was right around this time a few senior figures in the Novorussian seps/gov't resigned which at the time I took as a signal of the impending collapse of Novorussia. As the fighting went on, the separatists militia's were able to recover this territory and launch counter offensives, which have apparently managed to create a second 'cauldron' encirclement up against the Russian border of at least some Ukrainian forces. The 'first' cauldron is what led to those mass defections of Ukrainian troops across into Russia a few weeks back, along with some of the heaviest fighting.

All that aside, the scale of the humanitarian crisis in east Ukraine is certainly growing every day. It's a disgusting tactic to simply destroy the power, water and other infrastructure for millions of people, indiscriminately shell civilian towns, cities, and even refugees fleeing. The Ukrainian army was even toying with a major environmental disaster around two weeks ago when they were shelling a large chemical plant in the east (

)

Here is an extensive video record of the atrocities committed against the East. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e3e_1408400082

It's rather sad to think how many lives and how much of the wealth and infrastructure of this land could have been saved if not for the extremist position taken by the Kyiv Gov't. If they had attempted some sort of rapprochement, diplomacy or compromise when the eastern regions protested and eventually declared independence this could have all been avoided. Let's not forget that the ethnic Russians did have serious issues with the new kyiv government, and were protesting the February coup long before this conflict got hot (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e45_1408225130). Instead they seem to be aiming for some sort of supreme victory in which they annihilate the rebel forces, and a good chunk of the Russian population to boot. I struggle to see how the kyiv government expects to reconcile with these people and include them in the future.

I also really struggle to see how Ukraine recovers from this as a whole, they were already virtually bankrupt before this whole crisis began, and now have seen a massive expenditure on the military, a massive loss of infrastructure, life, massively increased energy prices from Russia (I'm not 100% sure but they might be totally cut off due to their debt to Gazprom at this point), loss of trade with Russia (The largest export market and biggest trading partner). Is the West/EU really willing to foot the bill for the reconstruction and rehabilitation of Ukraine? I seriously doubt it, which is truly sad for all Ukrainians, the final outcomes of the conflict pretty much range from very bad to disastrous at this point for combatants and civilians on both sides.

To sum it all up, this insane war in a European country no less leaves me feeling disgusted and depressed. Whether political ideology or some more macabre geopolitical play by outside forces is most to blame, the country is at civil war, the social fabric is heavily damaged, and the economy is going to tank even more than it already was. The people pulling the strings have effectively ruined the country.

_____

Sort of a separate though

When I come across stories like Joe Biden's son being put on the board of the largest private gas company in Ukraine after the February coup, at a time when there are large natural gas fields currently being fought over in the east, and Joe Biden HIMSELF is advising and TELEPHONING with the kyiv leadership and Poroshenko himself ( http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/08/16/readout-vice-presidents-call-ukrainian-president-petro-poroshenko) (http://www.businessinsider.com/hunter-biden-joes-son-ukraine-gas-company-burisma-holdings-2014-5) it is impossible to deny there is disaster-capitalism/shock doctrine at play here by the USA. Oh by the way, Poroshenko finally managed to ram through legislation allowing sale of 49% of State gas and oil assets, don't be surprised if a lot of these end up with Biden's company (http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2014/08/14/latest-ukraine-gas-deal-will-irk-russians/).

Edited August 19, 2014 by Solidarity

[Big Guy]

Would just like to caution that the Kyiv post is quite probably the most pro-central Ukrainian gov't news site on the planet.

...

Thank you for another thoughtful and well researched presentation. I try to post from many avenues of information. I thought that the Kiev article would placate the pro-Kiev posters who continue to criticize any other source as anti-Kiev.

I would like to focus on your “I struggle to see how the kyiv government expects to reconcile with these people and include them in the future.”

I fully agree. We have learned that it is one thing to “liberate” a society and another to conquer it. Does Kiev really want to be saddled with unhappy and smouldering oblasts sitting on the border with Russia? How much time, effort and resources would be spent on trying to maintain order in that region. Even if the population was split between Kiev and Moscow supporters, would either Kiev or Moscow want to be stuck with this region?

I think the only solution would be a quasi-independent state, supported by the UN, as a buffer between the two countries. The alternative would be an ethnic cleansing by either side ending up with still a common border and potential for an all out war.

[Big Guy]

The Russian convoy is on its way under the protest of Kiev. When it gets to the destination it will be interesting to see if Russian soldiers scurry out of them (although they may be a little hungry from sitting in those trucks for a week) or military equipment rolls out or food, water and supplies are distributed. Point Russia.

Kiev has promised not to fire on this convoy but cannot guarantee their safety. Point Kiev.

The game continues.

[Big Guy]

The convoy has crossed through into Ukraine through an area where the rebels are in charge.

The original problem that Kiev had with this convoy was that it was a way to smuggle troops, supplies and military equipment into Eastern Ukraine to support the rebels.

The convoy had no problems entering the area. Why would the Russians need a "convoy" to smuggle anything into the Ukraine - they can walk in at will?

Point to Russia.

Ukrainians still insist that it is some kind of plot but promise not top bomb the convoy.

Point to Kiev.

[alexmac]

Good to see that y'all are taking an open approach to all the news and I will point out one thing ....Putin owns the media in Russia...all of it.

Here our news is driven by the public who have a 30 second attention span then get bored and move on...our media reflects that.

Our government...a lot I could say but this time I will be civil...Harper and party have no idea what to do other than talk lot's and do nothing.

Tried 4 years ago to ask why we were starting a free trade agreement with Ukraine ...answer to show them that democracy works and it can be done anywhere ....Harpers words not mine.

I worked in the Donetsk Lugansk area and know many people there as well as having relatives in Kiev which is where my wife is from.

Now most of our friends have left to Kiev since the fighting started and also many of their friends. They speak fluent Russian and Dimitri served 3 years in Afghanistan with the Russian army , now he is from Lugansk and he is saying that most rebels including some of the leaders are Russian Special Forces.

His words...he lives there and understands military and he is not real happy with Russia right now and I am being polite when I say it this way if you talk with him about this he will not be so polite. So where do we go from here , do we ignore this or just spectate and talk like it is a sporting event ?

My last word is that 3 Russians who have major investments in Canada are not on the Sanction list and 2 have made political contributions to the Conservative Party of Canada through the companies they invested millions in , so do some homework and keep questioning for to be able to change things we first need to understand what is going on.

[Big Guy]

...we first need to understand what is going on.

And how do we do that?

[ASIP]

And how do we do that?

Getting a lots of information and analyzing it...

[dre]

so do some homework and keep questioning for to be able to change things we first need to understand what is going on.

We cant change things regardless of what we think we understand.

[Rue]

We cant change things regardless of what we think we understand.

That statement is powerfully ignorant.

Things changed each and every time someone makes a decision on a collective or individual level to do something positive.

Unfortunately the inverse can also hold true with negative decisions.

The world we are born into has unlimited possibilities to those who choose to embrace creative and positive thought and who accept their responsibility for their decisions on an individual basis.

Nature has shown us that all life forms that change, i.e., adapt, evolve.

You in fact believe you can't change things because you choose to not understand.

You comments epitomize a rationalization for being ignorant, lazy, blind, dumb and deaf/

That should be no surprise to anyone.

drunks can not see the possibility of change-they are too busy drowning in self pity

[Argus]

Getting a lots of information and analyzing it...

Well, it appears that no Russian soldiers are fighting in Ukraine.

On the other hand, there seems to be a large upsurge in 'training accidents' in eastern Russia which is sending a lot of Russian soldiers to hospitals with bullet and shrapnel wounds, or to the grave. But that is, no doubt, quite coincidental.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28949582

[GostHacked]

Shall we send in the drones, Argus?

[Argus]

Can we stop using terms like 'separatists' and 'rebels' now and simply call them Russians instead. There never were enough 'rebel's to hold off the Ukrainian army. Every 'rebel' group is led by a Russian intelligence officer, and almost all the 'rebels' seem to consist of Russian soldiers.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08/28/more-than-1000-russian-troops-are-operating-inside-ukraine-nato-officer-says/

[ASIP]

Can we stop using terms like 'separatists' and 'rebels' now and simply call them Russians instead. There never were enough 'rebel's to hold off the Ukrainian army. Every 'rebel' group is led by a Russian intelligence officer, and almost all the 'rebels' seem to consist of Russian soldiers.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08/28/more-than-1000-russian-troops-are-operating-inside-ukraine-nato-officer-says/

No, the majority of the "separatists" or "rebels" are still citizens of Ukraine. By estimate of a front-line Ukrainian soldier, right now, the share of Russian soldiers among killed or captured fighters is approximately one third (up from one tenth in the beginning of fighting).

But this is applicable for the main fighting area. Two days ago Russia performed two strikes from the south. One, to the north, to the back of Ukrainian army at Illovaysk. Another, to the west, towards Mariupol. This opens a completely new front at the shore of See of Azov. These two battle groups, I think, are purely regular Russian army. There may be some rebels' representatives for propaganda purposes.

[Big Guy]

I still wonder why Kiev wants to hold on to those Eastern oblasts. What is there that is worth the money spent on the recent military action? Is it the manufacturing plants?

The last set of elections indicated that the vast majority supported the pro-Russian government at the time. If indeed, this area is militarily brought back to Kiev control, the constant anti-Kiev agitation would draw even more resources from Kiev and continuing aid from Russia.

My perception is that the majority people in this area, from a variety of reasons from language to economy, would prefer alignment to Russia rather than the West. I have seen no objective or neutral information to change that perception.

It would be very informative to find some objective and/or neutrally motivated method of getting the actual views of the majority in each of those oblasts.

[Rue]

PIK I think Argus means the same thing as you are saying. When he said Russian he meant they are in fact the Russian army like you said.

Russia has lied through their teeth. They had already invaded the Ukraine and then lied and said it was only Russian Ukrainians. It was an out and out lie.

So?

Have you seen Obama lately on the news. Its down right embarassing. He slouches. He can't stand straight when he talks. He looks like a man whose had his balls cut off., There is nothing in his voice. He is a beaten down, listless man barely doing his job.

His foreign policy is a joke and the entire world laughs at it.

I hate to see the US Presidency reduced to a continuing joke on the foreign stage as he has done.

its a joke. He couldn't even finish his comments on Russia when he switched to he was sending Kerry back to the Middle east to talk about ISIS.

Yah right the same bafoon who Egypt, Israel, Saudi Arabia,th UAE all former close allies of the US, now ignore. Yah he can go meet his good friends in Hamas and Turkey and talk about ISIS.

How the hell does Obama think he has any credibility left to deal with ISIS when he and Turkey funded them and trained thm? Now what? Oh wait he can go to his "new" friends in Iran and ask for help? Uh no. Remember them Kerry? They just yesterday sent a UN team packing and would not let them investigate their nuclear facilities as they promised. Remember them Kerrry? They support Iran and Hezbollah against ISIS the group you funded to fight against Assad and Hezbollah and Iran. Remember? Erdogan told you ISIS and their Muslim Brotherhood backers were good people. Remember? When the more moderate citizens of Syria asking or help get rid of Assad you said no no no. Because at that time Morsi and Erdgan said, oh no don't support them they are not part of the Muslim Brotherhood. Wrong sunnis. Wait for ours to come from Iraq.

Obama's foreign policy has come back to blow up in his face. The very ISIS he and Erdogan created is now out of control.

Right what will the US do now. Yah I know-send John Kerry. OOH that will help.

Bottom line. Egypt and Israel have formed a temporary alliance. They will hold their ground and let ISIS and the Iranian proxies fighting over Syria kill each other. Why not. Big loss.The tragedy is not for these idiots dying from the Muslim extremist grouos its the citizens caught in between the extremists.

The people of Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, are just as captive as the Palestinians by their own Muslim extremists.

The days of blaming it all on Israel no longer work. That boat has sailed.

The extreme hatred that fuels the inter-Muslim intolerance between Muslim extremists is out in the open and can not be hidden or focused away from by blaming Israel.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Rue

[Big Guy]

Not sure what influence Israel or Palestinians are having on the Russian - Ukraine conflict.