Ukraine crisis

[bleeding heart]

But I've named some that were scarcely brought up...and you say "people don't care, and it won't sell papers"...right after telling me the omissions wouldn't happen, because it's a "huge story."

You want it both ways.

And I didn't say the truth never comes out; I stated--explicitly--the precise opposite. In plain English. Sometimes it does....often it does not. that's why our propaganda is so much more effective than the cruder version beloved by more authoritarian states.

Hell, you're trying to defend it...first by saying the media wouldn't ignore a "huge story" (like intentional Western complicity in the outright murder of a hundred thousand...maybe almost twice that...a fairly "huge story," doncha think? Makes Putin look like Gandhi in comparison, yes?)...and then you changed tack as soon as your silly idea was effortlessly demolished, citing Market Principles [sic] as the cause of Western public ignorance of Western crimes.

Edited May 11, 2014 by bleeding heart

[Argus]

Interesting and I believe impartial opinion at:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/05/ukraine-lies-propaganda-west-age-20145384527678726.html

Hardly. Even if such a promise was made, and I have seen nothing to support that, about not expanding NATO eastward, there were high, if naive hopes at the time, of sort of bringing Russia into the fold as a free and democratic country. But as Russia descended back into totalitarianism and started flexing its muscles things changed.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Argus

[Argus]

We've already learned to take all news-stories from Russian sources with a pinch of salt and rightly so too. What many of us have yet to learn is to do likewise with news from western sources as well.

Are all western news sources owned or controlled by the government? Do western reporters or even bloggers who go against the government get sent to prison?

[Argus]

The attempt f the West to colonise the Ukraine by overthrowing the elected government is going to be a complete flop. What is wrong with these nutters?

Do you speak Russian, by any chance?

[Argus]

The following might shed some info;

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/nov/14/world/la-fg-russia-emigration-20111115

None, actually.

[Argus]

Looks like you are correct on the date. And there are no other physical walls that were built that I know of.

You are picking nits. A barbed wire fence might not be a wall but you'd still be arrested or shot trying to cross it.

[Argus]

It was predictable even during the Olympics that the US/Nato was itching for trouble with Russia. The hate rhetoric during the games should have warned everyone. It was as if the cold war was still going on and there was a real reason to hate Russia. All they could muster up was the gay issue and even the US hawks got on that bandwagon against their own personal interests.

Sorry, but I'm not sure what it is you're trying to say. Should western nations befriend the vicious, murderous Russian regime? Should they not say anything bad about them? Why?

Why don't you tell us why you support the Russians?

[Argus]

Hey right on! JBG I knew it sounded familiar! If you want to talk about the Jews' apartheid wall then start a thread on it and I'll be there happily.

Anti-Semites seldom have a long lifespan around here.

So let's start by comparing the Crimean referendum and the democratic choice of the people.

Sure. The Crimean referendum was the opposite of the democratic choice of the people.

One is legitimate, the other is false. They couldn't be more different.

Why don't you tell us how your hero Putin is saving us all from the Jews?

Edited May 11, 2014 by Argus

[Argus]

Is it o.k. on this forum to insult somebody like that Shady? I note that JBG has tried it with me already too. And I also note that RT is saying that 400 US mercenary soldiers have joined in with the Ukraine's illegal government to kill people who are siding with Russia. Makes one wonder what the US really has as an issue to cause them to ride their horse into this developing civil war?

No, it really doesn't. Most of us are pretty comfortable with not siding with dictatorships or believing the propaganda they spew out.

[Argus]

I just watched CBC coverage of a speech by the Russian ambassador to Canada Georgiy Mamedov. He has been around for a number of years and I find his presentations interesting and humorous.

While you're having your giggles, you might watch the CBC doczone show on people who are trying to affect reform inside Russia by exposing the corruption and incompetence of the Kremlin and local governments through internet web pages and blogs. You'll see just how heavy handed the Russian government is in smashing down even these small-fry.

http://www.cbc.ca/doczone/episodes/defying-putin

[Argus]

And GostHacked, don't forget to mention that the people are returning to their homes in Homs! A little off topic but it's beginning to look like the Syria, Iran, Russia, China alliance is safe for now.

It's becoming too late for the US to bomb Syria from 30,000' the way Wesley Clarke told us they had planned to do.

Are you going to drink a little champagne in your belief this 'alliance' of dictators is 'safe'?

[Argus]

/facepalm. No one here claimed Russia was correct in their current actions.

That's not true. Dre, Iolo and Monty16 are clearly enthusiastic in their support for Russia. Bigguy is only a little far behind them, willing to credit almost anything the Russians tell him.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Argus

[monty16]

JBG, your first question is too hard to decipher so I just gave up. Try again if you think it's important. Your second question on the US colonizing Alberta or Quebec doesn't make much more because the US isn't trying. But we do have a situation where Quebec could achieve their separatist goal and I would contemplate that if they did then Canada would have to comply with their wishes. Hence, the Crimean people's wishes.

Do try that first convoluted question again by perhaps making two questions and each single barreled.

Iolo! So we meet again good sister! I bet you understand why the US is hiding behind Nato's skirts and trying to encroach further on Russia! Oh, and pay no attention to the personal insult from Argus.Some of 'them' think that a person has to be a Russian to be siding against US/Nato expansion.

[jbg]

Sorry, but I'm not sure what it is you're trying to say. Should western nations befriend the vicious, murderous Russian regime? Should they not say anything bad about them? Why?

Why don't you tell us why you support the Russians?

Deleted. Not part of the warning but close to the line of being an insult. Edited May 12, 2014 by jbg

[jbg]

Anti-Semites seldom have a long lifespan around here.

I hope you realize I am not an anti-Semite.

[jbg]

JBG, your first question is too hard to decipher so I just gave up. Try again if you think it's important. Your second question on the US colonizing Alberta or Quebec doesn't make much more because the US isn't trying. But we do have a situation where Quebec could achieve their separatist goal and I would contemplate that if they did then Canada would have to comply with their wishes. Hence, the Crimean people's wishes.

My question was why is it that Russia gets away about complaining about interference in countries' "internal affairs" when the protest is against their suppression of dissent? No one seems to mind Russia's stirring up trouble in other countries. I was likening it to any attempt by the U.S. to stir up trouble in its major bordering country, Canada.

[monty16]

JBG, what poster was it that you couldn't reason with back in 99 when they didn't send in the ground troops? Me? Most of the other posters on Sympatico? And are you just going to escalate your personal attacks on me slowly so there's little for me to complain about?

[jbg]

JBG, what poster was it that you couldn't reason with back in 99 when they didn't send in the ground troops? Me? Most of the other posters on Sympatico? And are you just going to escalate your personal attacks on me slowly so there's little for me to complain about?

Deleted. Not part of warning but in the spirit of eliminating personal insults I am deleting this and other posts. Edited May 12, 2014 by jbg

[monty16]

Yeah, it was March 99 and they didn't send in the ground troops, they bombed from 30,000'. And telling others that I'm hard to reason with is a person attack against me. Maybe we should let other form their opinions of people rather than you getting involved in leading them by the nose.

[jbg]

Yeah, it was March 99 and they didn't send in the ground troops, they bombed from 30,000'. And telling others that I'm hard to reason with is a person attack against me. Maybe we should let other form their opinions of people rather than you getting involved in leading them by the nose.

Deleted. Not part of warning but in the spirit of eliminating personal insults I am deleting this and other posts. Edited May 12, 2014 by jbg

[monty16]

Early results of the referendum in Donetsk are saying the people have voted 89.7% in favour of independence from Kiev. Should the US/Nato allow that or should they start bombing in order to help the people to get it right?

[Big Guy]

It looks like the Ukraine will probably be split into two, maybe three sections. Crimea is again a part of Russia and it looks that will not change. There are “provinces” which seem to be split between Kiev and separatism. There are the areas loyal to Kiev. I was watching the North American Sunday news panels and the consensus seemed that Russia does not really want those provinces which want separation. They are poor areas which will give problems to whoever ends up having to look after them.

The conversation was about the “Finlandization” of central Ukraine creating a neutral buffer between Russia and the NATO countries.

The American position also seems to be softening where there is more acceptance that there are very many people in Ukraine who do not want to be part of the new Ukraine. I also found it refreshing where on one show, they ran a video where a pro-Russian individual asked an interesting question: There was a revolution in Kiev that installed a new government. There have also been a number of revolutions in Eastern Ukraine that installed a number of new governments. What is the difference.

An interesting question.

[monty16]

Both illegal govs. Yanukovich was democratically elected and is still the boss until the people vote in a new gov. US/Nato apologists don't get it yet.

[Smallc]

But I've named some that were scarcely brought up...and you say "people don't care, and it won't sell papers"...right after telling me the omissions wouldn't happen, because it's a "huge story."

You want it both ways.

No, the point was, people don't care about some things. They care about this, and would either way. There's no reason for western media to not report everything.

[Smallc]

and then you changed tack as soon as your silly idea was effortlessly demolished, citing Market Principles [sic] as the cause of Western public ignorance of Western crimes.

Because there aren't very many western crimes (sic) to report. The ones that do happen are almost always flushed out. Why? Because we have a free press. How much attention the story gets, well, that depends on the audience interest.