Ukraine crisis

[Argus]

It is just an attempt by 'the West' to take over some of Russian capitalism's territory, the usual old capitalist rubbish. People here are getting bored with this game.

That's a pretty bizarre way to look at the naked agression of Russia taking over someone else's territory by force and blackmail.

[Argus]

The first mistake by the "new" government in Kiev was to rescind the law that made Russian an official language, even though that’s the language of many of its citizens.

It didn't.

[Big Guy]

It didn't.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/04/14/good_intentions_by_us_and_eu_ending_badly_in_ukraine_gwyn.html

[ASIP]

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/04/14/good_intentions_by_us_and_eu_ending_badly_in_ukraine_gwyn.html

The Toronto Star in an opinion section published incorrect information. Are you surprised? Can the commentator, Richard Gwyn, find Ukraine on the map? I am not sure. Russian is not an official language in Ukraine.

[Argus]

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/04/14/good_intentions_by_us_and_eu_ending_badly_in_ukraine_gwyn.html

Poor reporting doesn't make fact, and Gwyn should have known, given the story was dated April 14th, that the bill was vetoed on February 27th. Yulia Tymoshenko, who will likely be the next president has also stated she supports the original language law, so no change is likely.

[Shady]

Looks like trained Russian special forces wearing are responsible for seizing government buildings in eastern Ukraine. They're basically forcing Ukraine to use force to re-acquire they're own territory as an excuse for Russia to send in troops to "protect" Russian nationals. Of course, they're "protecting" will involve annexing more territory as their own.

[Shady]

Hey where's GostHacked? He usually reports on this type of underhanded foreign government interference. Oh wait, Putin's responsible, so it gets a pass. Can only imagine if it was the CIA though. Boy would he annoyed!

[WWWTT]

Looks like trained Russian special forces wearing are responsible for seizing government buildings in eastern Ukraine. They're basically forcing Ukraine to use force to re-acquire they're own territory as an excuse for Russia to send in troops to "protect" Russian nationals. Of course, they're "protecting" will involve annexing more territory as their own.

Trick taken right from the US and other western countries.

But who's going to stop them? The US? LOL!

The US can't even get further involved in Syria without Russia hitting Saudi Arabia.

WWWTT

[Big Guy]

I am not convinced that the information that we are getting through our government and Western media is impartial. This is starting to smell of the same partisan spin that was popular before and during our "expedition" into Afghanistan. The more I study the Ukraine the more I begin to doubt what we are being told on this side of the world. I trust the coverage from Al Jazerra and Reuters more then that of North American publications. In the West, those occupying the buildings are "insurgents" and "Russian infiltrators". In the East they are "rebels and separatists" and in Europe they are "protestors".

There is far more going on there and far more nuanced than we are being told here.

I believe that there are many ethnic Russians in Ukraine who feel as if their culture and language are being attacked by the new regime in Kiev. This from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language_in_Ukraine

"According to a 2004 public opinion poll by the Kiev International Institute of Sociology, the number of people using Russian language in their homes considerably exceeds the number of those who declared Russian as their native language in the census. According to the survey, Russian is used at home by 43–46% of the population of the country (in other words a similar proportion to Ukrainian) and Russophones make a majority of the population in Eastern and Southern regions of Ukraine."

It appears that there are far more Russian sympathizers in the Ukraine than we are given to believe.

[Shady]

Trick taken right from the US and other western countries.

But who's going to stop them? The US? LOL!

The US can't even get further involved in Syria without Russia hitting Saudi Arabia.

WWWTT

I wish it was a trick taken right from western countries. But western troops always wear uniforms unfortunately. Why would Russia hit Saudi Arabia? I don't understand that premise. For what reasons? Anyways, North America could hit Russia with sanctions and natural gas exports that would completely cripple the Russian economy if we wanted, or had the fortitude to do so.

[Shady]

I am not convinced that the information that we are getting through our government and Western media is impartial.

I'm not convinced that the information that we're getting from Russian media is very impartial, or all that reliable. Are they allowed a free press over there?

[Big Guy]

The Toronto Star in an opinion section published incorrect information. Are you surprised? Can the commentator, Richard Gwyn, find Ukraine on the map? I am not sure. Russian is not an official language in Ukraine.

I am only trying to get to the truth of the facts on the ground. That is why I post on these boards - to see if someone has valid information or informed sources of the facts. I like to have all of the facts before I take a stand. Do you agree with the following;

"In August 2012, a law on regional languages entitled any local language spoken by at least a 10% minority be declared official within that area. Russian was within weeks declared as a regional language in several southern and eastern oblasts and cities. On 23 February 2014, a bill repealing the law was approved by 232 deputies out of 450 but not signed into law by acting-president Aleksandr Turchinov."

[Big Guy]

I'm not convinced that the information that we're getting from Russian media is very impartial, or all that reliable. Are they allowed a free press over there?

Everyone posting opinions on this board have taken a position based on which surrogates they follow. My personal approach is to try to reference as many different sources as possible hoping that the cumulative information will be the closest to the facts. I also go out of my way to read sources which do not follow my particular philosophy so that I am not lulled into accepting only facts that I want to hear.

For the Middle East, I follow Al Jazerra. That media outlet had and has proven to be far more reliable and factual on coverage of the Afghanistan fiasco than any Western media. For me, Reuters has proven to be the best source of information on and about Europe.

As for Russia, the Russian Times, Pravda and RT are as pro-Russian as CNN, ABC and CBS are anti-Russian.

I take stories from all with the same amount of scepticism.

[Shady]

Everyone posting opinions on this board have taken a position based on which surrogates they follow.

No, my opinion is based on Putin's actions of annexing Crimea, and now trying the same thing with eastern Ukraine.

[WWWTT]

I wish it was a trick taken right from western countries. But western troops always wear uniforms unfortunately. Why would Russia hit Saudi Arabia? I don't understand that premise. For what reasons? Anyways, North America could hit Russia with sanctions and natural gas exports that would completely cripple the Russian economy if we wanted, or had the fortitude to do so.

I read somewhere that Putin was getting fed up with Saudi royal family and was ready to launch a missile strike against them much like what happened between NATO and Libya if the US was going to hit Syria. That's why everyone backed off so quick!

As far as sanctions go, Putin wants to sanction a lot of the Russian billionaires who are exporting the wealth and not recirculating wealth in Russia. So the G7 sanctions are helping Russia!

I don't think the west and Russia are butting heads at all! I think that they are both working together for mutual benefit.

Don't believe the propaganda!

I don't see much going on other than some talk of maybe increased sanctions. I'm sure that's got Putin all worked up, pacing back and forth with insomnia!

WWWTT

[Shady]

I read somewhere that Putin was getting fed up with Saudi royal family

Fed up why?

[WWWTT]

Fed up why?

Something to do with the rebels being backed by the Saudi royal family.

The rebels in Syria are Chechnyan (check grammar) and the Saudi are backing same rebels in Russia. Something like that but it was a while ago.

Anyways, Putin was getting pissed with them and said that if they are going to get help from US air strikes, he'll return the favour on Saudi royal family.

Funny thing to is that it's the 1 yr anniversary of the Boston marathon bombings, where were those guys from again?

This is just one big freekin circle of you know what! You go figure it out! I think the US and Russia are on the same side with some issues, and are polarized with others. But which is the Ukraine???

WWWTT

[Shady]

Something to do with the rebels being backed by the Saudi royal family.

The rebels in Syria are Chechnyan (check grammar) and the Saudi are backing same rebels in Russia. Something like that but it was a while ago.

Anyways, Putin was getting pissed with them and said that if they are going to get help from US air strikes, he'll return the favour on Saudi royal family.

Funny thing to is that it's the 1 yr anniversary of the Boston marathon bombings, where were those guys from again?

This is just one big freekin circle of you know what! You go figure it out! I think the US and Russia are on the same side with some issues, and are polarized with others. But which is the Ukraine???

WWWTT

Do you have a link to that?

[WWWTT]

Do you have a link to that?

I read that link back when the Americans were thinking of supporting the Syrian rebels with air strikes. That was closer to 1 year ago now.

I would have to search for it, when I have time.

WWWTT

[Rue]

Putin's agenda to invite a civil war in the Ukraine to seize it is nothing new. He's just recycling (dusting off) the old KGB books on seizing nations.

Nothing new. Same tactics used in Hungary, the Czech Republic, and so on.

The Ukraine can not turn itself into a Finland to avoid occupation. It has to fight or be conquered and Ukrainians are well aware of that. They are well aware Putin is trying to bait them into a pretext for an invasion. The Ukrainians know the Russian mentality better than anyone.

I will say only this-there are no shortage of excellent Ukrainian chess players. They know how to play the Russian game. Putin's bullying and bravado and posturing is like someone on a chess board making some early kills. He's showing his hand too quickly due to over-confidence and that is a huge mistake if you study Ukrainian history. They are tough sob's. They are tough enough to look a loud mouth in the face and stay calm and wait for him to bare his Achilles tendon.

[Argus]

Trick taken right from the US and other western countries.

Can you cite the last time it was done?

And do you believe Russia intends to set up a democracy in its newly acquired territory when it disdains all democratic values?

[Argus]

I am not convinced that the information that we are getting through our government and Western media is impartial. This is starting to smell of the same partisan spin that was popular before and during our "expedition" into Afghanistan.

And what wrong information did the media convey about Afghanistan? Are you suggesting it was actually an earnest, forward looking democratic state which worshipped freedom of expression and human rights and dignity?

The more I study the Ukraine

Why do I translate this as "the more wierdo conspiracy sites I check out..." ?

[Argus]

I'm not convinced that the information that we're getting from Russian media is very impartial, or all that reliable. Are they allowed a free press over there?

You can write whatever you want just so long as you aren't worried about a large truck rolling over your head the next day, or being shot to death, or your newspaper's delivery of newsprint suddenly being cancelled and the electricity shut off.

[Argus]

As for Russia, the Russian Times, Pravda and RT are as pro-Russian as CNN, ABC and CBS are anti-Russian.

That's a ludicrous comparison. You don't get shot if you put a story critical of the government on ABC, and God knows you'll see lots of stories critical of the government and of Obama in all American media.

You will find nothing like that on RT, Pravda or any other major Russian media. They are all owned or controlled in one way or another by the Russian government and its allies. RT makes FOX look unbiased. It is flat out Stalin era propaganda.

[GostHacked]

Hey where's GostHacked? He usually reports on this type of underhanded foreign government interference.

Russia getting involved in Ukraine IS underhanded foreign government interference. No one here is arguing otherwise. But if Russia is in there, you can bet greenbacks to rubles that the Americans and other western nations are involved.