bush_cheney2004 Posted January 18, 2014 Report Posted January 18, 2014 But most FOX viewers AREN'T rich. The job of the propaganda peole at FOX is convince them all these things are in their interest anyway. This is the fatal flaw in such thinking, as FNC viewers don't have to be rich or even aspire to be rich to reject the big government, cradle-to-grave ideology of the socialists who resent the very existence of "conservative" media. It is plain to see who has the agenda and bias here. Watch MSNBC instead if American content is always on the menu...they foam at the mouth regularly for their viewers (far fewer than Fox News). Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted January 18, 2014 Author Report Posted January 18, 2014 Bingo! The lack of having to do any real critical thinking by one's self, and delving into the minutiae makes these types of stereotypical, nonsensical, lazy, plagarized views easier to spread. You can't even SPELL plagiarized! And you're even stealing my insults! Though clearly, you don't understand them. Or would you care to show evidence I've plagiarized anyone? As for lack of critical thought, well, that's what FOX is for. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 18, 2014 Author Report Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) Utter nonsense. You're a big government statist. You have absolutely no idea what conservatism is. Try reading some Edmund Burke or Alexis de Tocqueville. Heck, even just more modern thinkers like George Will and Charles Krauthammer. But that doesn't fit your lazy stereotype, so you don't and won't. No, Shady. It's really sad that your idea of conservatism comes from FOX, but FOX isn't really about conservatism at all. At its heart, conservatism is about preserving traditions and elements of society which work and work efficiently and effectively. A liberal is all about new fads, and doing things new ways, about embracing change. The worst of them call this 'progressive', but forget that movement in any given direction does not necessarily imply progress. A conservatives won't change traditions or systems until strong evidence the new system is better than the old. But you simply think being a conservative is about being anti-government. That's not conservatism, it's anarchy, or its little brother libertarianism. A true conservative understands the absolute necessity of government for a well-ordered society, but wants it limited to only that which is needed by society but which can't effectively or efficiently be done by the private sector. A real conservative doesn't disdain government, but tries to make it as efficient as possible. Your billionaire friends to the south don't like public health care because they don't need it. They don't support public education because their kids go to private schools. They don't see the need for pensions or unions, for similar reasons. They want government as small as possible in order to reduce their taxes and to reduce regulation (some needed, some admittedly not) on businesses they own. Government provides a wide range services to ordinary people, but the wealthy generally have no need of such services and so don't want to pay for them. You, and those like you, have never understood that the rationalizations provided by the paid mouthpieces of the rich for why really small government is good and it should therefore be deprived of taxes, only really work if you're rich. You are not a conservative, Shady. You're simply gullible. Edited January 18, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 18, 2014 Author Report Posted January 18, 2014 This is the fatal flaw in such thinking, as FNC viewers don't have to be rich or even aspire to be rich to reject the big government, cradle-to-grave ideology of the socialists who resent the very existence of "conservative" media. It is plain to see who has the agenda and bias here. Watch MSNBC instead if American content is always on the menu...they foam at the mouth regularly for their viewers (far fewer than Fox News). The real contrast is that FOX slants on behalf of the powerful and MSNBC slants on behalf of ordinary people. The best example of the FOX viewer is Joe the Plumber, who was outraged that Obama wanted to raise taxes on those earning over $250,000 because, he said, he was going to start a business, and he could soon be earning that! Of course, he never even came anywhere near that, nor will he ever. He's a small timer, is Joe, and couldn't even keep his plumbing license, let alone start a business and make a ton of money. But he was just really gullible and bought into the propaganda. Joe is your typical FOX viewer, believing that what helps the rich somehow or other helps him, even though it actually hurts him. FOX told him so, after all. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 18, 2014 Report Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) The real contrast is that FOX slants on behalf of the powerful and MSNBC slants on behalf of ordinary people. Strange then that the "ordinary people" would choose Fox News over MSNBC based on cable ratings. Also, MSNBC is part of NBCUniversal News Group, which also includes CNBC, and CNBC World. Just "ordinary" (and rich) people checking on their investments just like those over at Fox. Is it any wonder that Canadians watch so much more American cable television and broadcast programming ? Edited January 18, 2014 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted January 18, 2014 Author Report Posted January 18, 2014 Strange then that the "ordinary people" would choose Fox News over MSNBC based on cable ratings. And again, MSNBC is NOT an all news network. Would you care to see what's on now? It's an all day marathon of Forensic Files. They also tend to have a lot of shows about prison and several varieties of 'real detectives'. I'm not denying they do have some political shows, more than most networks, but with some exceptions they tend to be the sorts of discussions intellectuals like, very tasteful and restrained. They're not likely to appeal to the lunch pail set. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 18, 2014 Report Posted January 18, 2014 And again, MSNBC is NOT an all news network. Would you care to see what's on now? It's an all day marathon of Forensic Files. They also tend to have a lot of shows about prison and several varieties of 'real detectives'. Yes, I am watching "Forensic Files" right now. Wow...that rock weighed about 10 pounds...err....4.5 kg. I'm not denying they do have some political shows, more than most networks, but with some exceptions they tend to be the sorts of discussions intellectuals like, very tasteful and restrained. They're not likely to appeal to the lunch pail set. Tasteful and restrained ? You mean like Martin Bashir's insult for Gov. Palin ? Yes, real classy ! MSNBC President Phil Griffin is finally addressing the scandals plaguing the cable network in the aftermath of the Alec Baldwin, Martin Bashir and Melissa Harris-Perry episodes. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/msnbc-president-critics-handled-article-1.1580665#ixzz2qn8fh4gt Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
cybercoma Posted January 18, 2014 Report Posted January 18, 2014 The worst of them call this 'progressive', but forget that movement in any given direction does not necessarily imply progress. A conservatives won't change traditions or systems until strong evidence the new system is better than the old.I don't want to derail this and quibble about political philosophy, but it's unfair to those who characterize themselves as progressives to imply that they embrace any change whatsoever with no evidence that the new system is better than the old. That's simply untrue. Quote
cybercoma Posted January 18, 2014 Report Posted January 18, 2014 The real contrast is that FOX slants on behalf of the powerful and MSNBC slants on behalf of ordinary people. The best example of the FOX viewer is Joe the Plumber, who was outraged that Obama wanted to raise taxes on those earning over $250,000 because, he said, he was going to start a business, and he could soon be earning that! I believe Steinbeck called them "temporarily embarrassed millionaires." Quote
Guest Derek L Posted January 19, 2014 Report Posted January 19, 2014 (edited) Excuse me, but are you so incapable of, uh, thinking for yourself, that you feel everyone is gulty of that? I've watched the loonies on FOX for quite a while, watched how they deliberately slant stories, how they deliberately choose stories to reflect well on their anti-union, anti-government, pro-1% bias, watched their habit of not properly identifying biased insiders they interview and judged them accordingly as dishonest and deceitful. You think I'm incapable of making that judgement without thought? I've no idea. The fact is FOX is designed to appeal to those who want unthinking, uncomplicated answers, to make them feel better than others, or that others are responsible for their misery. As for prejudiced, unlike FOX, I tend to own a conservative ideological view, and it is with that background that I hold FOX in contempt. At it's heart, FOX appeals to people who are dumb and bitter, and like their slanted news with lots of paranoia. So FOX only appeals to the dumb…….and the “1%”…..gotcha. But the reason I really dislike FOX is it holds its viewers in contempt. Its job is to convince the unwashed, that what is in the best interests of the 1% are in their interests too. In point of fact, it's generally the exact opposite. Public health care? We don't need it! No, not if you're a multi-milionaire. Public education! A waste of money! Sure, if you can afford private schools. Welfare, unemployment, pensions? A scam! Right, cause you don't need them if you're rich. So if FOX (in your view) is nothing more then PRAVDA for the “masses”, and doesn’t have the “masses” interests at heart, (As opposed to who? CNN? MSNBC?) why do more of the “masses” watch it then CNN and MSNBC combined? Oh, that’s right, the “masses” are dumb….mea culpa But most FOX viewers AREN'T rich. The job of the propaganda peole at FOX is convince them all these things are in their interest anyway. What? Like being wealthy? Edited January 19, 2014 by Derek L Quote
Guest Derek L Posted January 19, 2014 Report Posted January 19, 2014 Strange then that the "ordinary people" would choose Fox News over MSNBC based on cable ratings. Strange that indeed.... Quote
Guest Derek L Posted January 19, 2014 Report Posted January 19, 2014 This is the fatal flaw in such thinking, as FNC viewers don't have to be rich or even aspire to be rich to reject the big government, cradle-to-grave ideology of the socialists who resent the very existence of "conservative" media. It is plain to see who has the agenda and bias here. Watch MSNBC instead if American content is always on the menu...they foam at the mouth regularly for their viewers (far fewer than Fox News). Clear as day.........If you reject "big government" etc, one must either be rich or dumb. Quote
Guest Derek L Posted January 19, 2014 Report Posted January 19, 2014 Bingo! The lack of having to do any real critical thinking by one's self, and delving into the minutiae makes these types of stereotypical, nonsensical, lazy, plagarized views easier to spread. Two Minutes Hate....of FOX daily. Quote
Shady Posted January 19, 2014 Report Posted January 19, 2014 Yes, I am watching "Forensic Files" right now. Wow...that rock weighed about 10 pounds...err....4.5 kg. Tasteful and restrained ? You mean like Martin Bashir's insult for Gov. Palin ? Yes, real classy ! MSNBC President Phil Griffin is finally addressing the scandals plaguing the cable network in the aftermath of the Alec Baldwin, Martin Bashir and Melissa Harris-Perry episodes. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/msnbc-president-critics-handled-article-1.1580665#ixzz2qn8fh4gt Exactly. Intellectual discussions like asserting that somebody should defacate in somebody else's mouth, and mocking the black grandchild of a prominent Republucan.I see the completely clueless poster responsible for this thread continues his gross ignorance facts be damned. You'd think he'd feel embarrassed after a while. But nope. He plows ahead, blind as a bat! lol Quote
Shady Posted January 19, 2014 Report Posted January 19, 2014 (edited) Intellectual, tasteful and restrained. The MSNBC motto according to Argus! Intellectual Tasteful http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eXyEC0q4Do And of course restrained... Edited January 19, 2014 by Shady Quote
Argus Posted January 19, 2014 Author Report Posted January 19, 2014 I don't want to derail this and quibble about political philosophy, but it's unfair to those who characterize themselves as progressives to imply that they embrace any change whatsoever with no evidence that the new system is better than the old. That's simply untrue. I'm generalizing, of course, but it's been my experience a lot of these people get enthusiastic about this or that new concept, be it in education or social engineering (which includes a huge variety of economic programs to help the poor), attach a sort of moral imperative to it, steamroller over those who oppose them (see McGuinty on green energy or various educational 'experts' on whole word English or new math) and then ignore results which seem to show their ivory tower academic theory isn't translating well into everyday real world life. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 19, 2014 Author Report Posted January 19, 2014 (edited) Clear as day.........If you reject "big government" etc, one must either be rich or dumb. If you exclude certain shared services, such as the military, air traffic control, border police, coast guard, the FBI, NSA, CIA, etc., virtually everything the federal government spends money on is designed to help ordinary people, be they old, sick, needing education, poor, disabled, or needing protection from crooks and shysters. It's very clear this benefits massive numbers of ordinary people, though much of it goes unseen. You don't really stop to think about the products you buy being safe because you pretty much assume some sort of agency has checked it out at some point. That drug does what it says it does, your kid's pyjamas won't explode in flames at a spark, your food isn't coated in germs and disease, your car won't suddenly drive over a cliff, the airplane you're flying in has been properly maintained. You don't stop to think that the doctor in your area is there because of a government loans and grant program, or that those kids who graduated from high school got fed in the mornings, and their school was subsidized by federal funds. You probably don't think about all the federal money that flows into state coffers to help them with their programs, their highways, their police services. You certainly don't think about what those people on welfare would be doing without welfare (like cutting your throat for your money), or how much prisons you never see cost, or that the temporary immigrants who picked the apple you're eating came in through a federal government program. In other words, much of what's done is unseen and not really thought about. Taxes are glaringly obvious. What they do for you is not always so obvious. So it's easy to rail about high taxes, especially if you're ignorant and dont realize how low your taxes are compared to everyone else in the world. It's easy to rail about smaller government when you don't understand how it will effect you, or don't care if you think it will simply effect others. "Who cares if those welfare bums get no money!?" So yes, small government is the cry of the dumb and ignorant. Efficient government is the cry of real conservatives. That is, government which is precisely as big as it needs to be and no more. Of course, if you're really well-off, then you don't really care about any of that stuff. You'd be happy with a really tiny goverment. Because you figure you don't need all those services. You have a doctor on call, great insurance you can afford, your kid goes to a private school, and you live in a nice area well away from "those people", you know, the ones affected by slashing government services... Edited January 19, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 19, 2014 Author Report Posted January 19, 2014 I see the completely clueless poster responsible for this thread continues his gross ignorance facts be damned. You'd think he'd feel embarrassed after a while. But nope. He plows ahead, blind as a bat! lol If gross ignorance and a lack of facts could stop posters some of them, not saying who of course, would have burst into flames years ago and the ashes blown away on their own hot air. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 19, 2014 Author Report Posted January 19, 2014 Strange then that the "ordinary people" would choose Fox News over MSNBC based on cable ratings. Are you making the point that if more people like something it must be better? Because I'm pretty sure gay porn would get way better ratings than FOX if it was on basic cable. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
cybercoma Posted January 19, 2014 Report Posted January 19, 2014 I'm generalizing, of course, but it's been my experience a lot of these people get enthusiastic about this or that new concept, be it in education or social engineering (which includes a huge variety of economic programs to help the poor), attach a sort of moral imperative to it, steamroller over those who oppose them (see McGuinty on green energy or various educational 'experts' on whole word English or new math) and then ignore results which seem to show their ivory tower academic theory isn't translating well into everyday real world life.To be fair, what you hear in the media isn't where education researchers are today. 'New math' was shown to exasperate disparate educational outcomes, particularly in areas where there's a students of largely different socioeconomic classes going to the same institutions. The most current and up-to-date research is hardly ever adopted by institutions. You know how slow the bureaucracy works. Like I said though, this is pretty much off topic and beside the point. You're right that there are some people like you describe, but I would hardly say that's what progressivism is or even the majority of progressive-minded people. It's an unfair characterization, imo. Most reasonable people, regardless of their positions on these issues, want evidence-based solutions to social problems. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 19, 2014 Report Posted January 19, 2014 (edited) Are you making the point that if more people like something it must be better? Because I'm pretty sure gay porn would get way better ratings than FOX if it was on basic cable. Maybe yes...maybe no...gay porn is a different product than cable news. You gotta problem with gay porn ? Fox News Channel has been #1 in ratings since about 2002 in the U.S. The "progressives" have not figured out a way to package their message on radio or television in a way that beats "conservatives" in the market. Moving to Canada might help. Edited January 19, 2014 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted January 19, 2014 Author Report Posted January 19, 2014 (edited) Maybe yes...maybe no...gay porn is a different product than cable news. You gotta problem with gay porn ? Fox News Channel has been #1 in ratings since about 2002 in the U.S. The "progressives" have not figured out a way to package their message on radio or television in a way that beats "conservatives" in the market. Yes, there are an awful lot of angry, bewildered white men in the US who wonder how their world collapsed and are looking for someone to blame. FOX is very good at giving them simple answers and aiming them away from those who have sent their jobs overseas and taken away their benefits, and towards poor people who need government support to survive. Edited January 19, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 19, 2014 Report Posted January 19, 2014 Yes, there are an awful lot of angry, bewildered white men in the US who wonder how their world collapsed and are looking for someone to blame. FOX is very good at giving them simple answers.... So why does Fox and other American cable news channels have an audience in Canada and around the world ? I want to watch me some Canadian cable news right now, but it doesn't seem to be available from my provider. No bitter "white men" in Canada? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Guest Derek L Posted January 20, 2014 Report Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) So yes, small government is the cry of the dumb and ignorant. Efficient government is the cry of real conservatives. That is, government which is precisely as big as it needs to be and no more. Whats wrong with a small, efficient government? Also, at what point is government too small that it becomes "dumb" and "ignorant"? Edited January 20, 2014 by Derek L Quote
Guest Derek L Posted January 20, 2014 Report Posted January 20, 2014 Yes, there are an awful lot of angry, bewildered white men in the US who wonder how their world collapsed and are looking for someone to blame. FOX is very good at giving them simple answers and aiming them away from those who have sent their jobs overseas and taken away their benefits, and towards poor people who need government support to survive. Ahhh... So only dumb, ignorant, bewildered white men watch FOX. Quote
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