an israeli's evaluation of ariel sharon's career

[bud]

His finest hours: On Sharon's murderous legacy

From the Qibya massacre, to Sabra and Shatila, to the dirty tricks, lies and deceptions that made the West Bank settlements what they are today, Ariel Sharon has caused unimaginable damage to Israel, its army, morality, and political life.

this is a testimony to israelis that they have the courage to expose their own this way. this kind of honesty must be the basis of mutual honesty in dialogue.

Edited January 14, 2014 by bud

[Shady]

Any positive Israeli evaluations?

[Shady]

this is a testimony to israelis that they have the courage to expose their own this way. this kind of honesty must be the basis of mutual honesty in dialogue.[/size][/font][/color]

It's the product of a democratic society. Unlike the countries and groups that oppose them.

[DogOnPorch]

It's the product of a democratic society. Unlike the countries and groups that oppose them.

The comment section shows how popular this article was in Israel.

[bud]

Any positive Israeli evaluations?

of course there are positive evaluations, just like there were germans who gave hitler positive evaluations.

Edited January 14, 2014 by bud

[Bonam]

of course there are positive evaluations, just like there were germans who gave hitler positive evaluations.

[bud]

here is another evaluation, by the well-known israeli journalist, gideon levy, where he describes the funeral in detail and compares the old sharon and the later sharon, who famously removed the settlements from gaza and called for a palestinian state:

As the jeep approached, a few people ran toward it and tried to touch the coffin. That was the only outburst of emotion visible here yesterday. Everything else bespoke restraint, of the kind praised by the later Sharon, version 2.0. The earlier Sharon didn’t even recognize the word: For decades, he substituted unbridled appetites for force and violence.

link (need to be registered to view all of the article)

[Rue]

Of course Bud will use the death of Sharon as a new pretext to bash Israel and in this case deliberately select the most negative comments he can find engaging in the absurd suggestion the only things Israelis or anyone can say about Sharon are negative things.

Here is a more typical example of the kind of comments Bud's partisan agenda can not acknowledge:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/military-hero-and-former-prime-minister-ariel-sharon-laid-to-rest/

Here are some highlights. First comments from his sons:

“Look at how they thank you for protecting them, how they cherish you for defending them,” (from his son Omri)

“They said you can’t overcome the terror of the 1950s. They said tanks can’t do flanking maneuvers in the dunes north of Um Katef in 1967. They said you can’t cross the Suez Canal in the [1973] Yom Kippur War, until you did and ended the war,” he said from a podium set up next to the gravesite in the late afternoon. ...

They said there is no alternative to new immigrants living in tents [during the mass immigration wave in the 1990s from the former Soviet Union]. They said terror can’t be defeated in the early 2000s. So they said. But you proved otherwise. Doing the impossible is how legends are born, how a national ethos is created.” (his son Gilad)

U.S. V.P. Joe Biden stated that Sharon was “a complex man who lived in complex times in a complex neighborhood. Sharon was a part of “one of the most remarkable founding generations” in the world’s history, and had “the land of Israel, the Negev, etched on his soul... Sharon’s death “doesn’t just feel like the loss of a leader, it feels like a death in the family. Many of my fellow Americans, some of whom are here, feel that same sense of loss,” Biden said. Though we will “never know what the ultimate arc of Arik Sharon’s life would have been had he been physically able to pursue his goal.. as prime minister he surprised many... He left us too soon,... the political courage it took, whether you agreed with him or not, when he told 10,000 Israelis to leave their homes in Gaza in order to, in his perspective, strengthen” Israel. “I can’t think of a more difficult and controversial decision that’s been made.....Like all historic leaders, all real leaders, he had a north star that guided him. A north star from which he never in my observation, never deviated. His north star was the survival of the state of Israel, and the Jewish people wherever they resided,”

Tony Blair stated..“The same iron determination he took to the field of war he took to the chamber of diplomacy. Bold. Unorthodox. Unyielding,” he said.

Then Shimon Peres:

“Arik was a man of the land...He defended this land like a lion and he taught its children to swing a scythe. He was a military legend in his lifetime and then turned his gaze to the day Israel would dwell in safety, when our children would return to our borders and peace would grace the Promised Land.”

Netanyahu stated:

“Arik was a man of actions, pragmatic, and his pragmatism was rooted in deep emotion, deep emotion for the country and deep emotion for the Jewish people,”

Settler leader and close friend Ze’ev “Zambish” Hever stated:

“You taught the children of Israel how to fight... Everything you built you built big and deep, a project not for 20 years but for all time…. You believed utterly in the Jewish people and its abilities. You said again and again, ‘This people will overcome every obstacle.’”

Of course I have come to expect that Bud will only come on this board if it is to bash Israel, engage in name calling using selected partisan comments and explout any event whether it be someone's death, a terror attack, anything...to engage in his anti Israel exercise.

[bud]

sharon will be remembered as a war criminal by every definition, by most of the world. this is one of the reasons that no heads of state, except for czech's prime minister, showed up at his funeral. sharon, also known as the butcher of beirut, engaged in too many evil acts including being behind massacres and the murder of many innocent civilians. his two positive actions (removing the settlements in gaza and calling for a palesitnian state) in the late stage of his life cannot possibly overcome what he was and had done in his past.

Edited January 15, 2014 by bud

[BC_chick]

his two positive actions (removing the settlements in gaza and calling for a palesitnian state) in the late stage of his life cannot possibly overcome what he was and had done in his past.

Gaza was a sacrificial strategy, don't kid yourself.

[bud]

Gaza was a sacrificial strategy, don't kid yourself.

no doubt it was. it was costing too much to have a presence there. the settlers were moved to settlements in the west bank. that said, no matter the reason behind it, it was a positive step taken because the settlements were removed and it was done despite the heavy opposition by the very extreme right. it even resulted in bibi quitting the party and taking his settler and extreme right friends with him.

Here is a more typical example of the kind of comments Bud's partisan agenda can not acknowledge:

of course a "more typical example" makes no mention about the massacres he was a part of like the qibya massacre and sabra and shatila. i'm not surprised that you gravitate towards and try to promote misinformation that whitewashes the evils of this man.

this is why the first article shows courage by telling it like it is, despite what is 'typical'.

Edited January 15, 2014 by bud

[Rue]

Bud I would contend that the opinion you have demonstrated as to what "courage" is -is to only produce articles that you think will fuel hatred of all Israelis. You have shown that repeatedly by only producing blatantly one sided comments. Courage would be for you to say something positive about those Israelis who are Zionists who are in fact peaceful and have done much to promote peace with Arab peoples.

You won't do that. You can't do that. Your script won't allow it. Its parameters are clear and rigid. The formula so repetitive as to make it past blatant-take an event any event-throw in the slurs and then repeat.

No Bud, I never came on this forum once to say Sharon was a nice man. You once again have deliberately and with premeditation misrepresented what I presented. You have assigned me motives. Its what you do. So I more than meet you head on and say, let people see for themselves whose words between the 2 of us apologizes for terrorism and violence and condones it. I put all my words on this forum in discussion of the Middle East conflict up against yours.

Sharon was no angel. For example as leader of Unit 101 a small quick moving mobile unit designed to counter Fedayeen attacks from the West Bank in the 50's he is accused of blowing up a house that had civilians in it. He claims he checked the house and it was empty.

Sharon was the Patton of the IDF. A bombastic man. Big ego, big body, tank commander, and he never lost a battle. A man who never let down his soldiers. In fact during the Yom Kippur war as the IDF was caught with its defences down after Dayan insisted Syria and Egypt would never attack it, and then they did, the government had to call Sharon out of forced retirement from his farm. He stormed into the Sinai with his tanks and by ignoring the commands given to him, pierced through and defeated the Egyptian forces single handed.

He was a brilliant strategist and military warrior. Tough, uncompromising and able to read a map as good, someone say better than the desert Fox, Rommel.

He also was questioned for excessive force. He is blamed for the Shatilla massacre on the grounds that he had his IDF forces do nothing as Phalangist when into a Palestinian refugee camp and carried out a pay back massacre.

He is accused of complicity in other crimes against civilians.

The Peace Now Movement in Israel, many in the IDF and Israeli government denounced him as a war criminal. He was a polarizing man. Some hero worshipped him others called him as bad as any terrorist he fought.

To say he was complex was an understatement. He believed in an eye for an eye tooth for a tooth literally-you kill his people-he would kill yours-period.

That of course is not considered appropriate for many on this forum who feel only Arab terrorists can kill Israeli civilians but not the other way around.

In Sharon's world he would lower himself morally to the level of terrorists and engage in their behaviour if he thought it would stop them and wipe them out. Morality, being on the higher moral ground was not his belief and as a result he is vilified by those who say we must remain on higher moral grounds than terrorists when fighting them or we are no better.

Sharon was a pragmatist warrior. If he felt less people would die by being brutal to a few, he would.

This is not a man anyone can whitewash. The ridiculous accusation by Bud that I would whitewash him or anyone else will speaks for itself. You can not whitewash what he did. Its public domain. What he did is public record and now it remains for you and everyone else out there to judge him and whether his decision at times to use brutal force or condone brutal force against civilians made him a war criminal.

Me personally I thought his pulling out of Gaza showed he was a pragmatist willing to try make peace. Interestingly the moment he withdrew his troops Israelis accused him of being a traitor no different than Rabin and he could have cared less-the same attitude when darling genius arm chair leftists now pop up after his death calling him a terrorist. What we do know is Sharon could care less what anyone thought. He did what he thought was best for Israel. Call that blind compassion, brutal close minded cold blooded murder, its all relative to who says it and what their underlying biases are.

In regards to Bud I find it laughable he will not come on this forum and in his usual attempt to try pretend he is taking the superior moral and righteous

position, deem what makes a person have courage and define courage as simply, agreeing with Bud's take on things. In Bud's world courage means, you agree with Bud and that is to only see negative in anything an Israel does and to see nothing positive in Israel and to at all times use any opportunity, event or pretense to repeat the mantra-Israel should not exist.

That is not courage. In fact the very tactics Sharon engaged in Bud will not criticize when done by Hezbollah., Hamas, Intifdah, Fatah Hawks, on and on. Bud's sudden lecturing on courage and calling out brutal men only applies to Israelis-or maybe at times Americans but certainly no one else on this planet.

This is why I challenge him. Anyone can come on to a forum after a controversial man dies and use the negative in that man's life to fuel further hatred which is what Bud tries to do-take the very failures of Sharon and use them to fuel hatred against Israelis.

Therein lies our difference.

I have always and will always denounce the violence Sharon engaged in against civilians. I denounce what he did against civilians no different than I do terrorists from Hamas, Hezbollah, I have no double standard like Bud. I do not see only Sharon as the terrorist. I see him as one of many.

My bias is blatant. Everyone on this forum who has read my diatribes knows I am a Rabin labourite who then supported and still supports Tzipi Levni's positions. No one can say I am a Sharon man. I would continue to criticize some of what he did the exact same reason Rabin would.

I am not here to condone terrorism or violence to civilians by anyone and I am not Bud who turns a blind eye to terrorism and violence when its done against Israelis.

Lol does anyone think Bud will call out Hamas or Hezbollah for the same criticism he levels at Sharon? Hah.

This is the same Bud who accused me of being an ultra nationalist Zionist solely because I am Jewish, but when I asked him to identify his religion and ethnicity he refused. When in return for his accusing me of pro Israel simply because I was a Jew, I asked him, does his being a Shiite Muslim automatically make him an ultra nationalist Iranian extremist? He won't disclose his ethnicity or religion. Just like he won't disclose the alleged thesis he claims he wrote on Iran's military and nuclear capacity.

Bud has demonstrated he insists others follow a standard he will not. So is it any wonder he holds Sharon to a standard he will not hold Sharon's enemies to, and then comes on this forum pretending he is morally superior and righteous compared to me and accuse me of condoning his violence against civilians.

I say this directly to BC Chick. She knows I will debate her tooth and nail over Israel but I ask her, does she think I would condone Sharon's attacks on innocent civilians? She I hope knows me well enough by now to know, that is not the case. Like most Zionists, we do not cheer the death of civilians.

So let's ask one last question though and its a disturbing one I am not afraid to ask. I am not Bud. I do not come on here to whitewash.

Why did Sharon become so popular and get swept into power? Why did Begin for that matter become so popular? Why for that matter was Rabin killed?

In Israel there is a complex psychological collective shared by the people best called a siege mentality. It comes about from being surrounded by terrorists. You develop a collective psyche of survival and at the base of that sense of survival is the most basic of primal directives, kill or be killed.

People like Sharon or Begin because they were brutal are believed to be willing to do anything to prevent being killed. People like Rabin, who I would argue myself was Israel's best soldier, not Sharon or Ben Gurion,, people thought would hesitate,

Sharon as popular as he was also became from most popular to least popular for a time when he gave up Gaza. The deep primal directive to survive means if Israelis think you will abandon them in their hour of need, they will do what it takes on their own. Israelis are so used to being betrayed or left on their own to survive or abandon to life threatening situations, they will only truly support a position they do not think will expose them to death.

This is why Netanyahu plays an elaborate game of always looking as tough as Sharon to his people when it comes to their lives, but on the other hand

tries to negotiate a genuine peace. He has to play to that primal directive.

To understand the collective Israeli psyche is to understand Israelis will and do want peace and will take chances for it, but not if it means facilitating terrorists.

People who are not Israeli will not understand it. They will not understand how an Israeli deep inside felt safe with Sharon from terror attacks but at the same time loathed what he did with civilians in Lebanon or elsewhere. People can not understand how they could balance the two

No one in Israel reconciles a Sharon. He is a reminder of all of Israel's failures and military strengths at the same time.

Its a paradox-the same paradox I have argued that caused many Palestinians who otherwise loath terrorism to have voted for Hamas.

Both Palestinians and Israelis are often portrayed as being violent and I contend both may at times be pushed into situations where they think there life is in danger and they do or say things or vote for people believing their is no other choice.

I have always contended the way to break the cycle of terror and response to terror and more terror and more response to terror is to show both sides there are alternatives to terrorism and armed force.

To do that we first start by confronting and exposing agents that encourage the belief there are no alternatives but hatred and that is precisely why I take such pleasure in writing these responses to the Buds of the world sitting at their computers sending out messages of intolerance.

Bud does it make you cringe when I say-the more you show your writings, the more hope I have you are failing in your message?

Bud I laugh knowing Sharon goes to his grave believing people of peace not he must inherit the world. The thing about Sharon was, he was a pragmatist. He realized soldiers were a symptom of society's failure to communicate. Unlike you he never saw war as anything but a temporary failure in a larger game of negotiations.

He was so many steps ahead of you Bud its why he was one of the new modern day conventional generals never to lose a war or fight against guerillas. He invented the quick moving anti-terror counter strike force now used by the US Navy Seals, British, Russians, Germans, etc. Sharon's Unit 101 was the precursor of the Seals and SAS and our elite commando units and SWAT police forces.

He was the only modern day general to figure out how to effectively fight the guerilla war of Mao Tse Tung modified by the Viet Cong and then imitated by by terrorists all over the world to morph into the terror cells they are today.

Lol Zip over your head.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Rue

[bud]

Bud I would contend that the opinion you have demonstrated as to what "courage" is -is to only produce articles that you think will fuel hatred of all Israelis. You have shown that repeatedly by only producing blatantly one sided comments.

there is no "other side" when it comes to someone who was part of the massacre of innocent people. it's simply wrong and it cannot and should not be justified. if majority of israelis, or as you put it, "the typical" israeli wants to continue to be drunk with ultra-nationalism and pretend that the zionist ideology has not continuously violated other people's human rights, in order to achieve its goals, then i will continue to speak out against it.

Edited January 15, 2014 by bud

[Rue]

there is no "other side" when it comes to someone who was part of the massacre of innocent people. it's simply wrong and it cannot and should not be justified. if majority of israelis, or as you put it, "the typical" israeli wants to continue to be drunk with ultra-nationalism and pretend that the zionist ideology has not continuously violated other people's human rights, in order to achieve its goals, then i will continue to speak out against it.

No one but you has argued there is one side to discussing Sharon and in fact I demonstrated the exact opposite. Lol.

Your name calling Bud simply again evidences you are just on this forum to name call and use the pretext of discussing Sharon to spew a hate messeage against the "typical" Israeli. You prove once again Bud your agenda is to incite hatred against Israelis on this forum by engaging in negative stereotypes.

If you engaged in such tactics against blacks, women, gays, you probably would have been removed from this forum long ago. Since your object of hatred is couched with terms such as "Israeli" and "Zionist" it is allowed to pass as political discussion.

I get that but I think you show vividly with your responses particularly this last one you are an Israeli hate monger and you will use any discussion to serve as the basis to attach your hate message to pass it off as a "political" opinion and therefore get broadcast on this forum.

[DogOnPorch]

Without Sharon there would be no Israel. Period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War

No wonder the 'anti-Zionists' hate him so...

[overthere]

If you'd like an astonishly frank assessment of political discussion in Isarael, check this movie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gatekeepers_(film).

It offers unprecendeted access and some very frank talk from six former heads of the Israeli intelligence service, Shin Bet.

Bud will hate it, so will hardcore Zionists, and both for the same reasons.

[bud]

If you'd like an astonishly frank assessment of political discussion in Isarael, check this movie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gatekeepers_(film).

It offers unprecendeted access and some very frank talk from six former heads of the Israeli intelligence service, Shin Bet.

Bud will hate it, so will hardcore Zionists, and both for the same reasons.

why would you think i'd hate it? i didn't hate it. i thought it was honest and cut through the b.s. we're used to hearing from israel. i thought the message from the six leaders was right: which is to end the occupation, halt the settlements and engage the palestinians, even hamas.

[Rue]

If you'd like an astonishly frank assessment of political discussion in Isarael, check this movie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gatekeepers_(film).

It offers unprecendeted access and some very frank talk from six former heads of the Israeli intelligence service, Shin Bet.

Bud will hate it, so will hardcore Zionists, and both for the same reasons.

yes it is vey hard hitting critrique. i saw it. i think it will come across though to israelis differently than it will people who have not lived in israel. it will be seen by anti-israelis as proof of israel being immoral and by some pro israelis as being too partisan and soft on palestinians.

for zionists like myself who do not live in israel or who do live in israel we of course can not ognore its implications. quite frankly there are things in

the film i would discuss but certainly not with extremists on either side.

i do think it must be considered as part of theinternal dialogue going on now in israel between its people.

[Rue]

why would you think i'd hate it? i didn't hate it. i thought it was honest and cut through the b.s. we're used to hearing from israel. i thought the message from the six leaders was right: which is to end the occupation, halt the settlements and engage the palestinians, even hamas.

i doubt you saw it. if you did you would know these people shared opinions your regularly ridiculected on this forum.. you are giving this individual lip service. this film never stated israel should retreat to infefensible borders or negotiate with hamas as long as they remain at war with israel so don't misrepresent what ithe film said and pretend you now suport shin bet's take on the west bank stated in this film. you sure as hell do not. you are in favour of violently dismantling israel and believe in engaging in terrorism against israel. don't pretend you support any israeli who wants peace. your words indicate your hatred for them all. not even one thread ago you spewed out hatred for all israelis.. all anyone has to do is read back your posts to me to see what your agenda is.. interestingly i have stated the same views stated on this filmbut you referred to me as an ultra nationalist who hates palestinians..what a joke... you have called for israel being violently dismantled. don't come on this forum and pretend to be aligned with israelis you despise because you think you can exploit their peace message to further the destruction of israel.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Rue

[Hudson Jones]

If you'd like an astonishly frank assessment of political discussion in Isarael, check this movie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gatekeepers_(film).

It offers unprecendeted access and some very frank talk from six former heads of the Israeli intelligence service, Shin Bet.

Bud will hate it, so will hardcore Zionists, and both for the same reasons.

A good film. Reminded me of Fog of War. It was candid and honest. On occasion it is very critical of Israel's actions. It also questions current policies very strongly. The future for their country from the point of view of these insiders is bleak and pessimistic.

[bud]

i doubt you saw it.

i doubt you are mentally stable. you have a very hard time following what is said and your mental instability results in thinking things that people have never said.

you are in favour of violently dismantling israel and believe in engaging in terrorism against israel.

what? this is what i mean by you being mentally unstable. show me where i have ever advocated for violently dismantling israel or engaging them in terrorism, or correct yourself.

you referred to me as an ultra nationalist who hates palestinians..what a joke..

you are ultra-nationalistic. i never said you hated palestinians. either show me where i have said this, or correct yourself.

Edited January 17, 2014 by bud

[Rue]

Lowering this thread as you to all to name call, bait and engage in personal insults won't change a thing Bud.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Rue

[Rocky Road]

Candles' light in the dark.

Wanton desires of peace, spark.

In the cradle; God starts;

The lives of men; their hearts.

Rendered senseless by the mystery;

All for a bias account of history.

Men live, women live; people die.

We all wonder endlessly of the sky.

Jammed signals clog the channels.

Nuclear wargames with hitech panels.

Fortunes made; technology's virtue lost.

Millions of lives is the true cost.

Just for a minute; ponder the pain.

Tears from heaven fall like rain.

One who will right the wrongs.

Singing jubilant; valley songs.

Thunder breaks the silence.

Homeless men in makeshift tents.

In the middle of love and hate,

A reprieve; a hingeless gate.

Brotherhood of man; tribes of old.

Heat of passion; tongues that are cold.

Undying hope; the Truth of the truths.

An ointment for the wounds, it soothes.

Rinse the soiled cloth in the river.

Eat holy, keep well the liver.

Minds sick from crazed strategy.

Making way for the majesty.

[bud]

what? this is what i mean by you being mentally unstable. show me where i have ever advocated for violently dismantling israel or engaging them in terrorism, or correct yourself.

you are ultra-nationalistic. i never said you hated palestinians. either show me where i have said this, or correct yourself.

Lowering this thread as you to all to name call, bait and engage in personal insults won't change a thing Bud.

not being able to back up your claims about a person is one way of admitting that you were once again making things up or have some mental issue where you see and hear things that aren't really there.

Edited January 20, 2014 by bud

[Rue]

not being able to back up your claims about a person is one way of admitting that you were once again making things up or have some mental issue where you see and hear things that aren't really there.

Bud you came on this forum and refused to disclose your ethnicity, religion and ties to Iran yet ridiculed me for being Jewish accusing me because I am Jewish of being an ultra nationalist. You came on this forum claiming to have written a thesis on Iran's weapons.

To date you refuse to disclose your ethnicity, religion, relationship to Iran, but in reverse ridicule me for being Jewish and you refuse to disclose your thesis.

Now you want to pose as someone who accuses me of making things up and having mental issues because I said you are on record on this forum as supporting Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran and anyone else who engages and believes in engaging in violence and terrorism to dismantle Israel.

You now try deny you support terrorism against Israel.

Lol and you want to keep calling me names to defuse from your record.

Bud you and Hudson are on record complaining to the moderator for the very same name calling you engage me in now.

You want to try bait Bud its not going to work.

For you to deny you are a supporter of Hezbollah and Hamas and Intifadah and the well over 300 other terror cells dedicated to wiping out Israel is funny.

Go on then Bud, correct me. Say it right now....lol....say it....say you defend Israel's right to exist as a nation free from terror and I will be glad to acknowledge your claim of innocence.

Lol.