Do we still have a 40 hour work week?

[Michael Hardner]

Don't like it ? Resign and find something "better".

I agree with this approach entirely. In fact, I think that people can form informal "unions" by ratting out employers with bad practices and making them less desirable places to work.

Bad management doesn't save money, and it is far more economically efficient to treat people like human beings: much of the time the bottom line cost is zero but bad managers don't understand this basic fact.

[GostHacked]

I agree with this approach entirely. In fact, I think that people can form informal "unions" by ratting out employers with bad practices and making them less desirable places to work.

Bad management doesn't save money, and it is far more economically efficient to treat people like human beings: much of the time the bottom line cost is zero but bad managers don't understand this basic fact.

It's just business. Right?

[Michael Hardner]

Yes, and the more bad businesses that fail the better off we all are.

[GostHacked]

Yes, and the more bad businesses that fail the better off we all are.

I would be happy if that were true. But as we see some get rewarded with bailouts.

[bush_cheney2004]

I agree with this approach entirely. In fact, I think that people can form informal "unions" by ratting out employers with bad practices and making them less desirable places to work.

This actually happens in practice by becoming a...contractor ! Competent and confident professionals can find their own food, or use a broker to get gigs on their own terms. Nothing is more empowering than taking total control of the employment and compensation framework. Did this for ten years and was actually inspired to work harder because the rest of the team were contractors who also understood the liberation of labour.

Employers will try to hire you as a permanent employee to break the contract's high hourly rate, but once you have lived "outside the wire", it is hard to go back to less control and the same old miserable bitching employees and their office politics.

[GostHacked]

This actually happens in practice by becoming a...contractor ! Competent and confident professionals can find their own food, or use a broker to get gigs on their own terms. Nothing is more empowering than taking total control of the employment and compensation framework. Did this for ten years and was actually inspired to work harder because the rest of the team were contractors who also understood the liberation of labour.

Employers will try to hire you as a permanent employee to break the contract's high hourly rate, but once you have lived "outside the wire", it is hard to go back to less control and the same old miserable bitching employees and their office politics.

Actually the reason is because you were getting paid less and had to work more to pay more for your benefits and track them yourself out of your own time and pocket giving you less time to spend time with your family because you are working more to make up the slack in pay from the time you were not a contractor.

What an inspiration.

And the reason companies use contractors is to save money on benefits and labour wages.

Edited December 28, 2013 by GostHacked

[Bob Macadoo]

Actually the reason is because you were getting paid less and had to work more to pay more for your benefits and track them yourself out of your own time and pocket giving you less time to spend time with your family because you are working more to make up the slack in pay from the time you were not a contractor.What an inspiration.And the reason companies use contractors is to save money on benefits and labour wages.

And the only reason its cheaper is they hire consultants (ie contractors) to run their benefits, which has the highest chargeout for mismanagement from them and their superiors. Its then believed benefits are too much a cost to the bottomline. Ironic if not so sad.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Bob Macadoo

[bush_cheney2004]

And the only reason its cheaper is they hire consultants (ie contractors) to run their benefits, which has the highest chargeout for mismanagement from them and their superiors. Its then believed benefits are too much a cost to the bottomline. Ironic if not so sad.

It's not cheaper for certain professions, with hourly contractor billing rates well over $200 USD. Life at the top of the contractor food chain is very good indeed. Clients like this for short to medium term projects, and can always try to hire contractors to a permanent position with benefits.

As for "benefits", it is unclear to me why Canadians wouldn't be far more mobile and independent about such things if their health care is "free".

Edited December 28, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[Bob Macadoo]

Yes there is a role for contractors in business. My issue is to have those working next to your salaried employees for the same function. Its just short-sighted thinking.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes there is a role for contractors in business. My issue is to have those working next to your salaried employees for the same function. Its just short-sighted thinking.

That's where the value is...well paid, short term opportunity....not brain rot for 20 - 30 years doing the same thing and hating it. There is a difference between basic staff augmentation with contractors and staffing a project team with requisite skill sets not to be found internally, including project management. Seasoned contractors avoid getting bogged down in the typical employee bitching and moaning, while making no apologies for eating their lunch because they couldn't/wouldn't do the job themselves.

[Argus]

This actually happens in practice by becoming a...contractor ! Competent and confident professionals can find their own food, or use a broker to get gigs on their own terms. Nothing is more empowering than taking total control of the employment and compensation framework.

Not to mention wondering where that next contract in as your mortgage comes due and your kid needs new braces and the broker who hired you for the last two jobs still hasn't paid you...

My brother in law was an independent electrician for decades. Now he works for a giant corporate distribution center bossing around people who maintain all the equipment. He gets a steady paycheck plus benefits

[bush_cheney2004]

Not to mention wondering where that next contract in as your mortgage comes due and your kid needs new braces and the broker who hired you for the last two jobs still hasn't paid you...

Not to mention having the choice of plum contract jobs waiting for you with phone calls stacking up from coast to coast. Mortgage and braces already paid for...in cash !

My brother in law was an independent electrician for decades. Now he works for a giant corporate distribution center bossing around people who maintain all the equipment. He gets a steady paycheck plus benefits

Good for him, but electricians are lower down the contract food chain, and have to fight the good union fight as well. It's a rigged game for them.

[Guest Derek L]

This actually happens in practice by becoming a...contractor ! Competent and confident professionals can find their own food, or use a broker to get gigs on their own terms. Nothing is more empowering than taking total control of the employment and compensation framework. Did this for ten years and was actually inspired to work harder because the rest of the team were contractors who also understood the liberation of labour.

Employers will try to hire you as a permanent employee to break the contract's high hourly rate, but once you have lived "outside the wire", it is hard to go back to less control and the same old miserable bitching employees and their office politics.

Agreed 100%………so to does the bank account and investment portfolio.

[Argus]

Agreed 100%………so to does the bank account and investment portfolio.

For a TINY fraction of people. The problem you guys have is a nearly complete inability to understand that your circumstances are not applicable to the vast majority of the population.

[Guest Derek L]

For a TINY fraction of people. The problem you guys have is a nearly complete inability to understand that your circumstances are not applicable to the vast majority of the population.

I’d be actually interested to see a study highlighting the growing trend amongst business, ever eager to shed legacy HR costs, opting for “contracting out”……Is it a tiny fraction? And what of growth in this trend?

[Bob Macadoo]

I’d be actually interested to see a study highlighting the growing trend amongst business, ever eager to shed legacy HR costs, opting for “contracting out”……Is it a tiny fraction? And what of growth in this trend?

I would as well. Anecdotally my company is shedding 20% of our workforce and is replacing it with service contracts.

[bush_cheney2004]

For a TINY fraction of people. The problem you guys have is a nearly complete inability to understand that your circumstances are not applicable to the vast majority of the population.

So what ? A lot of things don't apply to the "vast majority" of the population. Nevertheless, I still routinely see contractors (from all over the world, including Canada) doing quite well. Today, people who think they are locked in for a 30 year "career" at one company are mostly delusional. Don't wait to be a "victim".

[cybercoma]

That's the funny thing about liberalism.

Do you even know what liberalism is? You're one of the biggest proponents of liberalism on this forum.

[Argus]

I’d be actually interested to see a study highlighting the growing trend amongst business, ever eager to shed legacy HR costs, opting for “contracting out”……Is it a tiny fraction? And what of growth in this trend?

By 'tiny fraction' I mean those who can profit handsomely by it rather than scratching out a meagre, hand to mouth existence, always desperate for a new contract, unable to plan for the future, get credit to buy a house, a car, etc.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Argus

[cybercoma]

Perhaps the most important text on what's being discussed in this thread is Marx's Capital: Vol 1. The guy published it only a couple years after the end of the American Civil War and was right on the money about everything that he said. Of particular importance in this thread are the ideas about the "reserve industrial army," essentially the unemployed and underemployed. Communism aside, it's one of the most important works in political economy theory, beautifully describing the employer/worker relationship in the, at that time, newly emergent wage-labour economy.

[Argus]

So what ? A lot of things don't apply to the "vast majority" of the population. Nevertheless, I still routinely see contractors (from all over the world, including Canada) doing quite well. Today, people who think they are locked in for a 30 year "career" at one company are mostly delusional. Don't wait to be a "victim".

In your first two sentences you pretty much admit that this doesn't apply to the 'vast majority' and then in your last two suggest that people who don't do it are 'mostly delustional'. You've already admitted that even an electrician can't exactly make a secure existence at it, and you think a lot of others without highly specialized technical training and experience can?

[bush_cheney2004]

In your first two sentences you pretty much admit that this doesn't apply to the 'vast majority' and then in your last two suggest that people who don't do it are 'mostly delustional'. You've already admitted that even an electrician can't exactly make a secure existence at it, and you think a lot of others without highly specialized technical training and experience can?

Yes, because they do. You're gonna have raise your aim beyond the garden variety trade of electrician or plumber to play the game well, but still, even those brave souls have made the key decision to control their own employment fate, even with the deadbeat unions on their backs. It's not complicated...since there is no more "loyalty" or "social contract", don't be a sucker and stick around for chump change and a layoff. Stay hungry for multiple opportunities instead of becoming complacent and waiting to be whacked. Pass Go...collect $200,000.

[Argus]

Yes, because they do. You're gonna have raise your aim beyond the garden variety trade of electrician or plumber to play the game well, but still, even those brave souls have made the key decision to control their own employment fate, even with the deadbeat unions on their backs. It's not complicated...since there is no more "loyalty" or "social contract", don't be a sucker and stick around for chump change and a layoff. Stay hungry for multiple opportunities instead of becoming complacent and waiting to be whacked. Pass Go...collect $200,000.

Again, you are openly suggesting that something like an electrician isn't going to do very well, and at the same time throwing around grandiose figures while saying anyone can do it! Anyone CAN'T do it. Only very, very few can. And the rest, as you say 'stay hungry', along with their families. As for those with lesser skills, such as office or labour types, the only 'independence' they get is the independence from a regular check while hoping the temp worker company will call and give them something to do so they can pay the rent.

The idea that freelancing is better for the vast, vast, vast majority of people is complete and utter bullshit.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Argus

[bush_cheney2004]

Again, you are openly suggesting that something like an electrician isn't going to do very well, and at the same time throwing around grandiose figures while saying anyone can do it! Anyone CAN'T do it. Only very, very few can. And the rest, as you say 'stay hungry', along with their families.

And of course, no families go hungry because of their nice, safe, well paying jobs that last a lifetime, right ? Far more than a few can and have done it, and still do.

TORONTO, May 05, 2010 (MARKETWIRE via COMTEX News Network) -- Canada's economic recession has forged a new generation of home-grown entrepreneurs, with approximately one-in-five respondents describing themselves as 'self-employed,' and more than half expressing a desire to work more independently, according to the latest survey from workforce solutions leader Kelly Services® (NASDAQ: KELYA) (NASDAQ: KELYB).

The findings are part of the Kelly Global Workforce Index, which obtained the views of approximately 134,000 people, including more than 15,000 in Canada.

The survey also finds that almost 20 percent of respondents want to start their own business, with Gen Y (aged 18-29) the most enthusiastic about starting a commercial venture.

The ranks of the self-employed -- also known as independent contractors or free agents -- are more likely to be Gen X (aged 30-47) and baby boomers (aged 48-65), and are mostly male.

The largest concentration of self-employed workers are in Quebec (24 percent), followed by Ontario (21 percent), Alberta (20 percent), British Columbia (19 percent), New Brunswick and Saskatchewan (16 percent), and Nova Scotia (13 percent).

http://ir.kellyservices.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=466762

As for those with lesser skills, such as office or labour types, the only 'independence' they get is the independence from a regular check while hoping the temp worker company will call and give them something to do so they can pay the rent.

The idea that freelancing is better for the vast, vast, vast majority of people is complete and utter bullshit.

Freelancing is a choice and opportunity for those with the skills and the balls to leave old ideas and dead end jobs behind. Whiners and victims need not apply.

Edited December 30, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[Argus]

Freelancing is a choice and opportunity for those with the skills and the balls to leave old ideas and dead end jobs behind. Whiners and victims need not apply.

Utter drivel. You make it sound like bravery. It's not. Some people have the good fortune to have rare and in-demand technical training, that's all. I wonder how brave you'd be with just a high school diploma.