PTSD, and the Military

[dre]

The Canadian public and government are directly responsible for this. We have taken a bunch of men and women that volunteered to protect this country from invasion or aggression, and we have used them for elective wars and political convenience. We send them to die in wars where WE are actually the aggressor, and we put them in situations where they cant even tell the difference between enemies and civilians. We use the "support the troops" meme, to justify political objectives and military spending, and then we do precisely jack shit to actually do anything supportive.

We should stop wasting their lives, and putting them in pointless and impossible positions. Interventionalist, non-defensive foreign policy is a total betrayal, and affront to these people, and the people that support war for anything besides a last resort are directly responsible for the plight.

And in the mean time, until we fix our broken foreign policy we should spare no expense to help deal with all these mental health issues, suicides, and homelessness, etc.

[Guest Derek L]

the OP thread focus is on a mental health influence as may contribute to CAF member suicide. With your wording emphasis on, "mental break, mental health, mental fitness" references, are you saying you were not speaking to these references as contributors to a potential suicide outcome? Were you speaking to a suicide outcome, or not?

Perhaps you should reacquaint yourself with the topic……clearly suicide and mental health issues are one and the same.

So I’ll ask you once more:

To clarify, you’re alright with the current and recent past levels of mental illness within the Canadian Forces? IOW, it's frequency, in your view, has not increased above past institutional norms and current programs are more then enough to deal with current challenges?

From your prior post, it reads as if you feel this is a non-issue…….and to expand on my point, it seems as if you’re in agreement with DND that pre-applicant screening is not at issue.

[dre]

To clarify, you’re alright with the current and recent past levels of mental illness within the Canadian Forces?

If you support sending our troops to die in elective wars in places like Afghanistan then you ARE alright with it, because thats the inevitable result. In my opinion the increases in these kind of problems are the result of assymetric warfare, and poorly defined missions with vague goals. We send these people into various places, and they dont even know who the enemy is, and they dont even know what they need to do to win. They end up being blood baths where more civilians get killed then soldiers, and because the missions are so poorly planned and impractical they end up dragging on for 10 or 15 years. Its no suprise that people come back with mental health issues.

If we used the military as a tool of last resort, to defend ourselves and our allies from direct aggression and attack, I bet you there would be hardly any suicidal, mentally ill, or homeless veterans at all.

[waldo]

Perhaps you should reacquaint yourself with the topic……clearly suicide and mental health issues are one and the same.

they're clearly not the same; however, for the purposes of your prior posts within this thread, your references to, "mental break, mental health and mental fitness"... are you confirming that you were speaking to these references as contributors to a possible suicide outcome? It's not a difficult question - I'm not clear why you're dancing around it?

So I’ll ask you once more:

From your prior post, it reads as if you feel this is a non-issue…….and to expand on my point, it seems as if you’re in agreement with DND that pre-applicant screening is not at issue.

I've not offered a personal statement/position... unlike you, I've actually provided cite support for this thread's discussion. As for your described, "pre-applicant screening", I pointedly stated, "I've not found anything that directly speaks to a mental health impact relative to recruitment screening/standards". I did suggest that given the provided study/report citations, "by indirect inference, one might surmise the following (the citations) speaks to recruitment/selection not being a factor".

[Guest Derek L]

they're clearly not the same; however, for the purposes of your prior posts within this thread, your references to, "mental break, mental health and mental fitness"... are you confirming that you were speaking to these references as contributors to a possible suicide outcome? It's not a difficult question - I'm not clear why you're dancing around it?

What, suicide and mental health? Quick Waldo, I'm losing interest in this conversation....

[waldo]

What, suicide and mental health? Quick Waldo, I'm losing interest in this conversation....

given your perpetual retreat into silly-buggar mode, there's really no point in ever starting any discussion with you. Were you speaking to a potential suicide outcome, or not?

[Argus]

.Rather, the CAF provides numerous statements/documents that attest to ongoing regular mental health screening procedures, suicide prevention and awareness programs, along with multiple mental health focused assessments of members returning from deployment (immediately after return and longer-term assessment). I've not found anything that directly speaks to a mental health impact relative to recruitment screening/standards; rather, by indirect inference, one might surmise the following speaks to recruitment/selection not being a factor:

What you read as corporate statements and what is practiced in real life are often quite different. My own governmental agency has reams of statements testifying to its dedication to the well-being, happiness and welfare of its employees but in practice it could not possibly care less.

[Argus]

I have to say that I'm somewhat confused about all this focus on the number of PTS cases in the military. It has not seemed to me that Afghanistan was a place that is any way comparable, in terms of the violence Cdn soldiers experienced, as someplace like Korea or WW1 and WW2, where combat was lengthy and included massive artillery bombardment, lengthy periods of combat, and constant exposure to dead and badly wounded bodies.

So is this something we're only now aware of? I.e., were there a lot of suicides amongst returning CDN vets from Korea and WW1/2 that never became public knowledge? Or are the people who went over there less able to accept/adjust to the violence they experienced than soldiers of previous generations?

Edited December 8, 2013 by Argus

[waldo]

What you read as corporate statements and what is practiced in real life are often quite different. My own governmental agency has reams of statements testifying to its dedication to the well-being, happiness and welfare of its employees but in practice it could not possibly care less.

again, as I stated, I haven't provided a personal statement/position... what I provided is reference and citation that I proffer as having come from the CAF, as representing statements/positions of the CAF. Although it certainly wasn't all encompassing it did reflect a fairly significant amount of time I researched the specific subject of military suicide (both CAF, the U.S. and NATO). As I read the thread, I believe it was the first post that offered more than just a personal opinion/viewpoint... and then, of course, MLW member 'Derek L' did his usual job to shyte all over it, and the time investment I put into it.

however you interpret your own government agency's alignment with its, what you refer to as, "corporate statements"... you are not in the military and your government agency is not the CAF. Appropriately related counter input to what I posted would come from, obviously, someone in the CAF, someone recently within the CAF, someone providing acknowledged anecdotal information relative to the CAF... or someone providing CAF related citation reference that speaks to recruitment, selection, ongoing mental health assessments, mental health assessments relative to recent/longer-term deployment, suicide prevention/awareness programs, etc.

[Guest Derek L]

So is this something we're only now aware of? I.e., were there a lot of suicides amongst returning CDN vets from Korea and WW1/2 that never became public knowledge? Or are the people who went over there less able to accept/adjust to the violence they experienced than soldiers of previous generations?

I don’t think you’ll find a black & white answer to that…..In my view, we’re obviously more aware of such thing contrasted to even a few decades ago, but as alluded to by myself and Army Guy, the Forces, like society in general, has also changed.

[Argus]

however you interpret your own government agency's alignment with its, what you refer to as, "corporate statements"... you are not in the military and your government agency is not the CAF. Appropriately related counter input to what I posted would come from, obviously, someone in the CAF, someone recently within the CAF, someone providing acknowledged anecdotal information relative to the CAF...

I would have thought that was assumed. You haven't seen all the vets protesting, the ones who saying they should all turn their backs on Harper at Remembrance Day ceremonies, the findings of the military ombudsman showing the miltary's poor treatment of vets?

Here is a thing where the former veteran's ombudsman says he was traumatized himself by the military's treatment. You'll find a citation early on within it of the CBC series also documenting poor treatment of soldiers.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/ex-veterans-ombudsman-treated-for-post-traumatic-stress-1.1303470

Here's one where the military is dismissing the findings of the DND ombudsman speaking about the same subject

http://fairwhistleblower.ca/content/military-dismisses-ombudsman%E2%80%99s-findings-regarding-alleged-mistreatment-former-soldiers

[BC_chick]

The Canadian public and government are directly responsible for this. We have taken a bunch of men and women that volunteered to protect this country from invasion or aggression, and we have used them for elective wars and political convenience. We send them to die in wars where WE are actually the aggressor, and we put them in situations where they cant even tell the difference between enemies and civilians. We use the "support the troops" meme, to justify political objectives and military spending, and then we do precisely jack shit to actually do anything supportive.

We should stop wasting their lives, and putting them in pointless and impossible positions. Interventionalist, non-defensive foreign policy is a total betrayal, and affront to these people, and the people that support war for anything besides a last resort are directly responsible for the plight.

And in the mean time, until we fix our broken foreign policy we should spare no expense to help deal with all these mental health issues, suicides, and homelessness, etc.

I agree that wars these days are elective, but lets face it, it's been over 10 years since it all began. The soldiers know what they're getting into and what they're 'fighting' for.

They're no longer pawns in a rich man's game of chess, they are willing participants. This may sound harsh, but I don't have the sympathy I used to have 10 years ago.

[waldo]

I would have thought that was assumed. You haven't seen all the vets protesting, the ones who saying they should all turn their backs on Harper at Remembrance Day ceremonies, the findings of the military ombudsman showing the miltary's poor treatment of vets?

in the context of the OP, the main discussion theme and my post addressing mental health concerns as a possible contributor to suicide, the almost exclusive focus has been on active, current serving military personnel. However, I did highlight the one study that also offered a distinction for veterans... the study showed that males who were former CF members were 1.5 times more likely to die from suicide than men in the Canadian population.

you clearly have assigned me a position... one that you've invented for me. As I said, my post was proffered as representative of CAF statements/positions that I summarized from research of CAF website material/documents/studies. I emphasized it wasn't all-encompassing, but does represent something lacking within this thread (prior to my post); i.e., something that goes beyond simple expressed personal opinion.

[Army Guy]

you suggest recruitment, selection and a lack of an ongoing mental fitness assessment of serving members is a contributor to... "mental breaks... mental health issues, within serving members". Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) position/statements do not appear to align with your personal opinion/assessment. Rather, the CAF provides numerous statements/documents that attest to ongoing regular mental health screening procedures, suicide prevention and awareness programs, along with multiple mental health focused assessments of members returning from deployment (immediately after return and longer-term assessment). I've not found anything that directly speaks to a mental health impact relative to recruitment screening/standards; rather, by indirect inference, one might surmise the following speaks to recruitment/selection not being a factor:

- (2013) Surgeon General report: "Suicide in the Canadian Forces 1995 to 2012": (caveat on small sample size highlighted)

- (2010) Canadian Forces Cancer and Mortality Study (CF personnel, both serving and released, who enrolled in the CF between 1972 and 2006):

and... for what it's worth in referencing the largest sample size study of U.S. military personnel, a JAMA published study of current and former military personnel observed July 1, 2001-December 31, 2008: "Risk factors associated with suicide in current and former US military personnel":

In my opinion i would say, Yes the current recruitment process and standards contribute to the boon in mental health issues that plague DND. You can't soften up what was once very tough standards and not expect it to have an effect later on down the line.

As for offical recongition of the problem, no one has laid out the contributing factors but they have reconginzed the problem, CDS went on national TV just a few days ago, and gave a speach, all military members got an E mail from him as well, and it was not to wish us merry X-mas...why was that....

Regualr mental health check ups,are being done, they consist of a lenghty quaterly mental health questionair, a vist to the Padre, and at the end of the tour you get to sit down with a someone in mental health ( not a doctor) but staff , to talk about the results of your mental health Questionair, normally about a 15 min secession. Anyone that is not looking for help will rarely get picked up by mental health staff...So when DND official releases it is doing things they are with the funding available.

Your sources are all over that map, less than the national average, then 1.5 times the avg, let me ask you this were i work there is approx 500 of us, i can quickly name you a dozen people who has taken thier lifes in the last 5 years, i'm sure that number would double if you took the time to do some research. Can you do the same.

suicide risk was independently associated with male sex, mental disorders (depression, manic-depressive disorder), alcohol-related problems, but not with military-specific variables

- none of the deployment-related factors (combat experience, cumulative days deployed, or number of deployments) were associated with increased suicide risk.

I'd call the above Bullshit, for the record i am not qualified a mental health expert nor i'm i a doctor. But the guys i've seen with mental health issues were good and healthy people before deploying, smiling no issues at all with drugs and booze. not the case now, Saying that Combat is not a contributing factor is well plain horse shit...it is the main factor....the proof is above...these guys that had not experienced combat yet were laughing joking, had productive and happy lives before they went over, and now some of them are suffering from PTSD all were changed by the experience. Like i said i am not sure why everyone does not get it, but it does not dismiss the fact that being in combat is were they got it. If you had seen what we have seen and then told me that it did not have an effect on you i'd call you a lair.

[Army Guy]

I have to say that I'm somewhat confused about all this focus on the number of PTS cases in the military. It has not seemed to me that Afghanistan was a place that is any way comparable, in terms of the violence Cdn soldiers experienced, as someplace like Korea or WW1 and WW2, where combat was lengthy and included massive artillery bombardment, lengthy periods of combat, and constant exposure to dead and badly wounded bodies.

So is this something we're only now aware of? I.e., were there a lot of suicides amongst returning CDN vets from Korea and WW1/2 that never became public knowledge? Or are the people who went over there less able to accept/adjust to the violence they experienced than soldiers of previous generations?

I think everyone is focused on it because their is more media coverage on the topic, you have to remember it was not until the 80's were you could even talk about PTSD, or what ever they called it then, it was considered a sickness for the weak...and nobody wanted to be weak, so you suffered in silence.

Afghanistan was a totally different war, we did get shelled, or mortared, regularly, but not anything on the scale of WWI or WWII or korea. Afghan was like fighting ghosts, no one wore uniforms, they used men, women, and children in their fight again'st us. they commited hellish war crime offenses, to every side including their own. it was a war of frustration, rarely being able to stand toe to toe with these guys.

Hard to explain...All wars are the same death and destruction , but your right some are more intense than others.

[Army Guy]

I agree that wars these days are elective, but lets face it, it's been over 10 years since it all began. The soldiers know what they're getting into and what they're 'fighting' for.

They're no longer pawns in a rich man's game of chess, they are willing participants. This may sound harsh, but I don't have the sympathy I used to have 10 years ago.

I would not say that exactly, the newbies have no idea what they are getting into, much like a down hill ski jumper seeing the jump for the first time scary, but he has trained along time for this event. he wants to prove himself and his training....for the others that have done multi tours sure we know what we are getting into, we also know there is nobody else...to say no we are not going , would mean leaving the military. but you see it is not just a job, it is a life style, where the men and women you work with are not buddies, or girlfriends but people who you trust your life with...the bond is much more deeper...

deeper than brothers and sisters in some cases...a bond so great you would volunteer just so you could protect them. and would feel responsiable if anything would to happen to them if you did not go.

Soldiers don't get to pick which conflict they want to go to or don't want to go to....yes if your contract is up then you can choose to leave. but leaving something you love is very hard to do for most.

when i say love...i don't mean the killing, or the war crap.. but rather the people, and the life style.

[Topaz]

I'm wondering if medications are helping or making things worse for the soldiers. I heard a doc say on the radio, that they are finding anyone taking pain killers for over 6 months can go into a depression and how many soldiers need pain killers? The one has the mental experiences of the war, what they saw or did and certain people may find it harder to deal with it. I know soldiers don't want out pity but I do feel for these people and maybe we, as a nation, better think 3x before sending them into combat.

[jacee]

Just having the same thought, Topaz.

Not to be ignored: The association of chronic pain, prescribed opiates and PTSD:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1016/j.ejpain.2003.10.008/abstract;jsessionid=9D2A39A1FA98877A20D9E42930777665.f01t04?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

Analyses suggested that pain-related variables were significant predictors of PTSD symptom cluster scores.

Conclusions: These results indicate that the association between pain and PTSD symptoms, previously observed in primarily male samples, is generalisable to females.

veterans-face-dangerous-combination-of-painkillers-and-ptsd

Veterans with PTSD are nearly twice as likely to be prescribed opioids as those without mental health problems, according to a study by a Veterans Affairs researcher. They are more likely to get more than one opioid, and to receive the highest dose. The study found veterans with PTSD were more than twice as likely to suffer injuries, overdoses and other bad outcomes if they were given opioids.

Edited December 9, 2013 by jacee

[Guest Derek L]

In my opinion i would say, Yes the current recruitment process and standards contribute to the boon in mental health issues that plague DND. You can't soften up what was once very tough standards and not expect it to have an effect later on down the line.

Exactly, my eldest completed her BMOQ recently and likened it to slightly more intense Brownie Camp…..I hold high hopes that Basic Land/Sea survival will hold several magnitudes more difficulty then a family camping trip at a Provincial park….

Edited December 9, 2013 by Derek L

[Army Guy]

My middle daughter joined a few years ago, she had a severe lip on when i refused to sign her papers until she could complete 50 push ups and 50 sit ups, and run a 10 km in under 1 hour along with a few other things (i know i'm a dick, but i'm also Infantry)....lets just say we both put in alot of extra hours trying to get her into shape....

Her first PT test during Basic training was to complete 7 push ups and 7 sit ups....She phoned me that week to once again complain why did you push me so hard....until she hit trades training, and her instructor a Clerk ( that was a good buddy of mine) was giving out 50 at a time.....i got a phone call that week, she said she sorry, and thanked me for pushing her....

[GostHacked]

I have to say that I'm somewhat confused about all this focus on the number of PTS cases in the military. It has not seemed to me that Afghanistan was a place that is any way comparable, in terms of the violence Cdn soldiers experienced, as someplace like Korea or WW1 and WW2, where combat was lengthy and included massive artillery bombardment, lengthy periods of combat, and constant exposure to dead and badly wounded bodies.

The war in Afghanistan went on longer than both World Wars combined. And we STILL have troops there.

So is this something we're only now aware of? I.e., were there a lot of suicides amongst returning CDN vets from Korea and WW1/2 that never became public knowledge? Or are the people who went over there less able to accept/adjust to the violence they experienced than soldiers of previous generations?

Better advancement in health care and in understanding mental illnesses related to war. They did not really have the tools or knowledge to help with these issues back then.

[Guest Derek L]

My middle daughter joined a few years ago, she had a severe lip on when i refused to sign her papers until she could complete 50 push ups and 50 sit ups, and run a 10 km in under 1 hour along with a few other things (i know i'm a dick, but i'm also Infantry)....lets just say we both put in alot of extra hours trying to get her into shape....

Her first PT test during Basic training was to complete 7 push ups and 7 sit ups....She phoned me that week to once again complain why did you push me so hard....until she hit trades training, and her instructor a Clerk ( that was a good buddy of mine) was giving out 50 at a time.....i got a phone call that week, she said she sorry, and thanked me for pushing her....

We weren’t too concerned about the physical requirements since she played div 1 U18 soccer, but her getting up at ass-crack of dawn and functioning with little sleep fostered a tad bit of angst…….What MOC did yours end up in? Follow her father’s path and become a death-tech?

[waldo]

In my opinion i would say, Yes the current recruitment process and standards contribute to the boon in mental health issues that plague DND. You can't soften up what was once very tough standards and not expect it to have an effect later on down the line.

is there a, as you describe, 'boon in mental health issues plaguing DND'? To step outside the emotions associated with recent profiled events, that assessment requires an accompanying review that factors statistical measures. The 2 CAF sourced studies I've referenced are relatively current - 2010 & 2013. From your perspective in what way has the current recruitment process and standards contributed to your perceived 'boon'? How have standards been, as you say, "softened"? If you're emphasizing lowered physical standards... just how does that translate into a perceived possible mental health issue in the future?

As for offical recongition of the problem, no one has laid out the contributing factors but they have reconginzed the problem, CDS went on national TV just a few days ago, and gave a speach, all military members got an E mail from him as well, and it was not to wish us merry X-mas...why was that....

the following video may not be exactly what you're referring to; however, I trust it speaks to what you're describing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX4W0xgt-fI

I've read a lot that suggests the CAF is, quite obviously, aware of the issue of suicide within the military... nothing suggests it more overtly than to have formalized suicide prevention and awareness programs... to have dedicated studies and resulting reports that speak directly to military suicide. Clearly, this video outreach by the CDS is a direct extension on the 4 recent profiled suicide deaths. Within the video, I read the CDS reinforcing the 'team aspect within the CAF... "care is available... we're a team and we're there to support each other". He mentions available support outlets and, if necessary, encourages CAF members to avail themselves of those outlets - to also reach out to friends, family members, padres, leaders, etc.. A key point he makes it that, "self-stigma regarding mental health must end".

.

Regualr mental health check ups,are being done, they consist of a lenghty quaterly mental health questionair, a vist to the Padre, and at the end of the tour you get to sit down with a someone in mental health ( not a doctor) but staff , to talk about the results of your mental health Questionair, normally about a 15 min secession. Anyone that is not looking for help will rarely get picked up by mental health staff...So when DND official releases it is doing things they are with the funding available.

the key question I have for you is, why would a CAF member needing help, not look for that help... help that appears to exist within CAF? To me, this speaks to the CDS emphasizing self-stigma within the above video. Is there a different degree of self-stigma for a CAF military person than might exist within the general public? If a CAF member comes forward, and seeks assistance... how might, or how does that action, if extrapolated into a resulting medical mental health issue diagnosis, impact career placement/advancement within the military? Is a military member undergoing treatment, or successfully treated, viewed any different or treated any different by the CAF employer... than might exist within an employer-employee relationship in the general public?

Your sources are all over that map

again, those sources are (principally) CAF sourced statements/studies/reports... they are not "my" sources. I added in the published U.S. military focused study because it's recognized as the largest study of military personnel ever done... it was focused on 2001-2008, with obvious emphasis on combat within the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.

[Army Guy]

is there a, as you describe, 'boon in mental health issues plaguing DND'? To step outside the emotions associated with recent profiled events, that assessment requires an accompanying review that factors statistical measures. The 2 CAF sourced studies I've referenced are relatively current - 2010 & 2013. From your perspective in what way has the current recruitment process and standards contributed to your perceived 'boon'? How have standards been, as you say, "softened"? If you're emphasizing lowered physical standards... just how does that translate into a perceived possible mental health issue in the future?

I joined over 30 years ago, when mental health was a 4 letter word, rarely did you hear of anyone have issues with it. i say rarely in the latter stages of Yugo was when it became known and even then an indiv soldier might know of one or two cases. Today a Plt of 30 guys 10 might have various mental health issues. And while that may be because there is more education on the topic, and more efforts to change the stima of mental health problems.

Perhaps i did not discribe it enough, but as well in drops in Phyiscal standards, there is a equal drop in mental standards. recruits are not stressed to the breaking pionts any more, it is much more relaxed.

When i joined our instructor staff would be A WO, SGT, 4 MCPL, and 8 Senior Cpls, all would tag team the recruits to ensure stress and phyiscal levels were always at there peak that was for 130 recruits, of which only 60 or less would graduate. today instructor staffing is half of that, and 100 to 110 will graduate.

Stress levels were kept up for a reason, to weed out the weak,the lone wolfs, and the mental unstable giving recruits minimum sleep, 2 to 4 hours a night, head games,lots of head games telling recruits the truck is around the corner after marching for 10 kms already only to round the corner and see NO truck, and march the remaining 10 kms back into camp.... Today there is only enough stress placed on the recruits as the weakest man can handle...

How does this translate into more mental health issues, thats easy alot of those guys would have been weeded out in the recruit process, or further trades training.

[Army Guy]

I've read a lot that suggests the CAF is, quite obviously, aware of the issue of suicide within the military... nothing suggests it more overtly than to have formalized suicide prevention and awareness programs... to have dedicated studies and resulting reports that speak directly to military suicide. Clearly, this video outreach by the CDS is a direct extension on the 4 recent profiled suicide deaths. Within the video, I read the CDS reinforcing the 'team aspect within the CAF... "care is available... we're a team and we're there to support each other". He mentions available support outlets and, if necessary, encourages CAF members to avail themselves of those outlets - to also reach out to friends, family members, padres, leaders, etc.. A key point he makes it that, "self-stigma regarding mental health must end".

.

DND spends alot of time and effort into just the programs you talk about, and while we are all better trained to recongize the the five w's in preventing suicide, there is little you can do once your afficted with mental health issues, that training does not mean squat to that individual... DND has care just not enough of it. and what is there is not readily available all the time.

The self stigma,will always be there until DND or the Government does something about it. Most mental health issues are carear ending. Even more so now with cut backs being thrown around force redutions being talked about. these guys are being treated for maybe 2 years on the outside then asked to move on...wait until the cut backs arrive, these guys will be one of the first to go.

Thats would be scary for any normal adult, try one with mental health issues that is has a Type A personality, with no real skills out side the military, and has a family to support and family that is depending on him or her..many perfer to live with the pain say nothing feed their families...