Gatineau Hospital Orderly Insult Veteran Over English Language Use

[Argus]

I don't understand this. Regardless of the language, the situation described by Argus involved two ignorant, bad mannered people.

The situation described happens hundreds of times a day here. I don't know any anglophone in the public service here who hasn't experienced it many times.

[GostHacked]

Regardless of language?

So if you're in the room with another person who uses english as a first language and an Asian person who has difficulty with English, do you switch to their Asian language for them?

One could always ask co workers if they speak the patient's language.

[Argus]

If I and the person I'm talking to are fluently bilingual, as Argus described, and the third person is fluent in one language only, of course I would. It would be unthinkable not to.

That is entirely my point. I continue to be amazed at the ignorance of so many of my colleagues.

Those I have confronted about it simply claim it's natural, but we're talking about conversations that can last some time - with me at the table or in the office. That isn't something that's simply forgotten. I recall an early board meeting when I was a clerk when a lot of back and forth questioing with the manager was in french. One of the people at the table, a Francophone, btw, interupted to point out there were people there who didn't undrestand French and that the conversation should be in Englisyh. It continued in French.

And yes, all the Francophones there, probably about eight of them were fluent in English, but two people did not understand French.

[Argus]

That is entirely my point. I continue to be amazed at the ignorance of so many of my colleagues.

Those I have confronted about it simply claim it's natural, but we're talking about conversations that can last some time - with me at the table or in the office. That isn't something that's simply forgotten. I recall an early board meeting when I was a clerk when a lot of back and forth questioing with the manager was in french. One of the people at the table, a Francophone, btw, interupted to point out there were people there who didn't undrestand French and that the conversation should be in English. It continued in French.

And yes, all the Francophones there, probably about eight of them were fluent in English, but two people did not understand French.

[bleeding heart]

Then your comments were even more astonishingly ignorant and stupid than I'd previously thought.

How so?

Do you mean that your personal anecdote is true...and so therefore Cybercoma's (not to mention my own) must be false?

Because it's NB, I've been around French people (up to and including a former marriage) my entire life. It's just the way things are here. My French is extremely poor. And I've never witnessed this "issue."

And I'm certainly not implying it doesn't happen. Of course it does...as does the reverse.

But it's not about the iniquity of the French.

Edited November 15, 2013 by bleeding heart

[cybercoma]

I've had it happen to me and I certainly didn't get all bent out shape about it like Argus. A tech support guy came to my office to install some stats software on my system and my supervisor and him at the time were talking about it in French. She's from Québec and he's from Shediac. Anyway, when they were finished talking (about 10 minutes later mind you), she asked if I understood any of that. I said, "only bits and pieces." So she took the time to explain to me in English what was going on. It didn't bother me whatsoever because I know it's easier for her to discuss things in French when she can, even though she speaks English very well, albeit with a French accent. I can't for the life of me understand why I should be offended by this. If I was so inclined, I could go and learn French so these situations don't happen, just as a great many French-speakers do when it comes to English.

[Guest]

I've had it happen to me and I certainly didn't get all bent out shape about it like Argus. A tech support guy came to my office to install some stats software on my system and my supervisor and him at the time were talking about it in French. She's from Québec and he's from Shediac. Anyway, when they were finished talking (about 10 minutes later mind you), she asked if I understood any of that. I said, "only bits and pieces." So she took the time to explain to me in English what was going on. It didn't bother me whatsoever because I know it's easier for her to discuss things in French when she can, even though she speaks English very well, albeit with a French accent. I can't for the life of me understand why I should be offended by this. If I was so inclined, I could go and learn French so these situations don't happen, just as a great many French-speakers do when it comes to English.

The reason why you wouldn't be offended by that is, it wasn't offensive. If they felt it necessary to converse in their first language in order to fully convey and understand the technical aspects of their discussion, then so be it. That's different from the situation we were discussing.

[Guest]

How so?

Do you mean that your personal anecdote is true...and so therefore Cybercoma's (not to mention my own) must be false?

Because it's NB, I've been around French people (up to and including a former marriage) my entire life. It's just the way things are here. My French is extremely poor. And I've never witnessed this "issue."

And I'm certainly not implying it doesn't happen. Of course it does...as does the reverse.

But it's not about the iniquity of the French.

I want to make it clear that my responses in this thread have to do with people. Not French people.

[bleeding heart]

I want to make it clear that my responses in this thread have to do with people. Not French people.

Of course, that was completely clear. I agree with you: rude is rude.

[BC_chick]

I heard nothing but horror stories about rude Quebeckers and rude French from everyone including a close family member when I was growing up. I was quite surprised then when everyone was so hospitable to me during my trip to France as well as the several years I lived in Montreal. I think there is a subtlety in people's attitudes when visiting other places. If you think you're superior you'll get treated badly. If you don't have that air about you, people are generally nice.

[Ex Kaybecker]

what's the point of this thread? The described insult is an isolated incident... it's not representative of anything other than the improper actions of one individual, no matter how longing you are to fan the broader flames of your purposeful wedge issue setup... your, as you say, "Quebecois humiliating Anglophones".

It is NOT an isolated incident,. only the latest in a series of many. And yes, it IS Kaybekwah humiliating anglophones, and in an area where the poor anglo is 77, disabled and in poor health.

Wedge issue? When francophones defend or excuse this behaviour, the hatred that blows back at them is wholly deserved. BTW, the orderly is still working at the hospital, since the francophone hospital obviously will not take actions against one of their own. Silence is consent.

[Ex Kaybecker]

This is related, but quite aside from the thread. Out of curiosity, do you speak French? My wife wants to travel to Québec City sometime, but I'm worried about the language barrier. My French is awful. I don't speak or understand it very well at all. Is Québec City like Montréal due to tourism, i.e., most people are bilingual in Québec City?

Most people are not. But the hatred of anglophones there is greatly diminished because of numbers. Where you are in an area where 99% speak your language, you tend not to be quite as paranoid, adamant and violent as when your people comprise a mere 60%.

BTW, you spelled the name of this province's largest city incorrectly.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Ex Kaybecker

[Ex Kaybecker]

jbg, you are American and live in the US. What's your point? Do you truly understand the life of a francophone in Ontario, or an anglophone in Hull?

I think Mark Twain said, I paraphrase, that good writers tell the truth. IOW, your opinion is valid when you tell the truth.

Francophones in Ontario are like royalty. They have their own hospitals, rec centres and schools, all paid for by English Canadian tax dollars, and of course the best jobs because their confreres in the public service are all from Kaybec, NB or the Ottawa Valley and the-vast majority are French. Their level of English is not great but it does not matter as long as THEY can work and be served in French. I would LOVE to become a francophone and get all those benefits. How do I do that?

Edited November 17, 2013 by Ex Kaybecker

[Argus]

How so?

Do you mean that your personal anecdote is true...and so therefore Cybercoma's (not to mention my own) must be false?

We're not speaking of anecdotes. We're speaking of manners. If you are okay with people treating you in an ignorant and ill-mannered way, then fine. Most of us don't appreciate it.

But it's not about the iniquity of the French.

Someone asked a question and I answered it.

[Argus]

I've had it happen to me and I certainly didn't get all bent out shape about it like Argus. A tech support guy came to my office to install some stats software on my system and my supervisor and him at the time were talking about it in French. She's from Québec and he's from Shediac. Anyway, when they were finished talking (about 10 minutes later mind you), she asked if I understood any of that.English.

Maybe I just have more self-respect than you do. I would not have stayed in the office. And where I work, there are no Francophones who have not passed federal tests for bilingualism. That is to say, they are there specifically because they are bilingual. They were specifically hired for that ability and are paid for it. If they find themselves unable to converse properly in the English language they should quit.

But in any event we're not speaking about some strange tech but people I know well, whose English abilities I know well, and whose lack of bilingualism on my part they know well. And, for the most part, we're also speaking of social conversations, not complicated technical discussions.

But there is something about the French mindset. I remember a large meeting several years ago, involving the entire directorate. I loathed it, because it meant sitting in a chair listening to hours of dry speeches by senior management. In any event, while most of the speeches were in English, one of the directors droned on in French for a good twenty minutes. There was no translation. Again, as I pointed out, all employees must be capable of functioning fluently in English. I remarked to a couple of my very fluently bilingual franco ontarion colleagues that this guy should have either spoken in English or half and half. They quite disagreed. They felt there was too much English and that it should have been half and half. My pointing out that two thirds of the staff were English and that half of them didn't understand French just drew scorn. They should learn French, was their opinion.

I should point out that at least one of these individuals was appallingly incompetent at almost every facet of her job, and often had temper tantrums (including throwing things) about not being able to make her computer work as she wanted. She only had the job because she was bilingual. Yet it never seemed to have entered their minds that being hired only because they were bilingual ought to grant their minds flexibility on the issue.

[Argus]

Of course, that was completely clear. I agree with you: rude is rude.

Well, not having been exposed to it I can't say that Chinese people or Swedish people or Italian people might not behave in an equally ignorant fashion, but I have observed it so often among Fracophones that I don't attend social gatherings with them without making sure there are a lot of Anglos present. As I said to one guy who invited me to a Senators game with another guy I know (both franco Ontarions and thus very fluent in English) I'm not going because with you and him there you'll wind up talking in French most of the time. He sort of half-heartedly promised to try to remember to speak in English but even he knew I was right. They were very nationalistic on the issue of French and French rights.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Argus

[-TSS-]

This thread reminds me so much of our situation here in Finland as we are also officially a bilingual country, Finnish and Swedish being the languages. It is really frustrating how a tiny 5% minority can maintain such a privilege that everyone at school must learn their language.

I've spent some time in the Swedish-speaking areas and as Finnish is the only language I can speak it was surely an ordeal.

[Bob Macadoo]

Well, not having been exposed to it I can't say that Chinese people or Swedish people or Italian people might not behave in an equally ignorant fashion, but I have observed it so often among Fracophones that I don't attend social gatherings with them without making sure there are a lot of Anglos present. As I said to one guy who invited me to a Senators game with another guy I know (both franco Ontarions and thus very fluent in English) I'm not going because with you and him there you'll wind up talking in French most of the time. He sort of half-heartedly promised to try to remember to speak in English but even he knew I was right. They were very nationalistic on the issue of French and French rights.

You are endemic of those who have a passive aggressive detest for bilingualism. It shows by your misunderstanding of what the state of bilingualism is presently. I'm an Anglo who felt it necessary to expand my linguistic skills, not for employment as you seem to lament people for, but for personal pursuit.

Just because someone is bilingual doesn't mean they enjoy speaking it. It may require more concentration than they are willing to give at that moment, even though it might offend your sensibilities. I would tell you if you are being constantly excluded from conversations stop looking externally.

[The_Squid]

This thread reminds me so much of our situation here in Finland as we are also officially a bilingual country, Finnish and Swedish being the languages. It is really frustrating how a tiny 5% minority can maintain such a privilege that everyone at school must learn their language.

I've spent some time in the Swedish-speaking areas and as Finnish is the only language I can speak it was surely an ordeal.

You didn't pay attention in school then, did you? Maybe take some Swedish lessons. The vast majority of Swedish speakers in Finland speak Finnish.

Why are people so insecure when they are around people speaking a different language, especially when the majority of people speak their language.

It's a bizarre "me me me" attitude.

[-TSS-]

Be French-speakers in Canada or Swedish-speakers in Finland even though most of them can easily speak the majority language but when in an area where they form the majority, be it Quebec or SW-Finland, they can be very rude towards speakers of the majority language and pretend not to understand.

[jbg]

They were very nationalistic on the issue of French and French rights.

From what I have heard this was not the case before Pearson and Trudeau politicized the issue. Before, signage was in French where it made sense, English where it made sense, and both languages in many areas such as Montreal. The matter has descended into the political maelstrom.

[Argus]

You are endemic of those who have a passive aggressive detest for bilingualism. It shows by your misunderstanding of what the state of bilingualism is presently. I'm an Anglo who felt it necessary to expand my linguistic skills, not for employment as you seem to lament people for, but for personal pursuit.

Well how precious. Good you had the enormous time for that. Some of us work for a living.

Just because someone is bilingual doesn't mean they enjoy speaking it. It may require more concentration than they are willing to give at that moment, even though it might offend your sensibilities. I would tell you if you are being constantly excluded from conversations stop looking externally.

I was speaking about franco ontarions. Their second language skills, evidently unlike yours, are excellent. And I'm constantly invited to these things, which I often turn down. I'm not unpopular, in other words. Quite the contrary, which is why these people keep coming into my office to chat --in English. There are certainly a number of Quebec francophones whose second language skills make me wonder how they ever got hired, but even so, if I'm present, take your lengthy private conversations elewhere.

That's really pretty basic manners.

[Argus]

Why are people so insecure when they are around people speaking a different language, especially when the majority of people speak their language.

It's a bizarre "me me me" attitude.

Tell you what, how about you have a few francophones over to watch a football game or something.

And when almost all the conversation, jokes, etc. are in French, which you don't understand, you just sit there by yourself and smile stupidly and tell yourself you're actually part of the group.

[The_Squid]

Tell you what, how about you have a few francophones over to watch a football game or something.

And when almost all the conversation, jokes, etc. are in French, which you don't understand, you just sit there by yourself and smile stupidly and tell yourself you're actually part of the group.

lol

Like I said... sensitive.. I'm not concerned with people speaking another language.

I hang with some Chinese folks... they always sound like they're angry... At least in French I could pick up a few words! My social skills are good enough that I don't sit in the corner and brood if something other than English is being spoken.

[-TSS-]

French is not a compulsory subject at schools throughout Canada and besides French is a world language something which can not be said of Swedish which is useless outside of Scandinavia. If I'm not totally mistaken the Icelandic people have compulsory Danish at their schools. I wonder what their sentiments are about it.