Government Infrastructure Spending

[TimG]

I'm simply stating that "enviro" and "nimby" seems to you to be anyone who objects to industry intrusion...no matter what the reason for his objection.

I think I made it very clear that I am talking of people who raise environmental concerns as a reason to block a project. If someone disputes the public necessity of expropriation then they are not raising environmental concerns.

[bleeding heart]

I think I made it very clear that I am talking of people who raise environmental concerns as a reason to block a project. If someone disputes the public necessity of expropriation then they are not raising environmental concerns.

OK...I think I'm having a difficult time with this, because I don't believe in a vast conspiracy of "enviros" whose actual purposes are sinister and self-interested.

[TimG]

OK...I think I'm having a difficult time with this, because I don't believe in a vast conspiracy of "enviros" whose actual purposes are sinister and self-interested.

The vast majority of enviros are hypocrites who only objects to things that they think they do not benefit from personally. They have no problems with projects that benefit themselves.

For example, wind turbines kill large numbers of birds - enough that enviros would be demanding huge fines if oil company caused the same number of deaths. Yet they are silent because they think wind power is a benefit to them.

And it is no conspiracy - being selfish is human nature. The issue to debate is the tools we give to people to block projects because they are selfish.

Edited November 7, 2013 by TimG

[waldo]

It is a fact that we cannot build anything in the country because somebody will raise environmental objections. It makes no difference that you think a group is raising objections for reasons other than a concern for the environment (most enviros are nimbys looking out for their self interest) because regulations in this country have made it extremely difficult to dismiss environmental objections no matter what the true motivation of the objector.

do you ever come down from your TalkingPointMount? Don't worry... Harper Conservatives have your back! Those Harper Conservative declared "Enemies of the State" haven't a chance against the wily/crafty moves being made. Notwithstanding the overt censorship of federal scientists, the large funding/resource cuts to Environment Canada, Harper Conservatives have tucked their "best work" within the umbrella covering of large omnibus bills.

say like... industry driven changes to the Fisheries Act: Controversial changes to Fisheries Act guided by industry demands

One of the most significant changes was to remove the broad protections that covered all fish habitats and to specify the law would now prohibit only “serious harm” to fish “that are part of a commercial, recreational or aboriginal fisheries, or to fish that support such a fishery.”

Documents released recently to The Globe and Mail under federal access to information laws suggest that wording was offered by industry associations.

The Fisheries department said in an e-mail this week that it is still focusing on preserving fish habitat but “is adopting a practical, common-sense approach that focuses on managing threats to Canada’s recreational, commercial and aboriginal fisheries and the fish and fish habitat on which they depend.”

effectively, industry rewrote the definition of what "fishery" means... to remove broad protections that covered all fish habitats and to now only include law protections for "resource fish"... fish that associate with commercial, recreational or aboriginal fisheries.

[waldo]

OK...I think I'm having a difficult time with this, because I don't believe in a vast conspiracy of "enviros" whose actual purposes are sinister and self-interested.

since you clearly aren't agreeable, I trust he won't pull his, "you have no clue" card... as before!

[waldo]

I think I made it very clear that I am talking of people who raise environmental concerns as a reason to block a project. If someone disputes the public necessity of expropriation then they are not raising environmental concerns.

so the... don't take my gun land types are still okey-dokey in your narrow covenant!!! Good to know. Imagine the nerve of those Nebraska hayseeds raising objections to that initial KXL pipeline route. What's an aquifer here or there, hey?

[bleeding heart]

The vast majority of enviros are hypocrites who only objects to things that they think they do not benefit from personally.

"Vast majority."

You've made a declarative sentence lacking qualifiers. I'd love to see how you have objectively come to such a conclusion.

[bleeding heart]

since you clearly aren't agreeable, I trust he won't pull his, "you have no clue" card... as before!

It's there by implication (and by definition). "Clueless" means "different political stance." I suspect it extrapolates to alternate views on the economy, on social issues, and on foreign policy.

[TimG]

You've made a declarative sentence lacking qualifiers. I'd love to see how you have objectively come to such a conclusion.

It is a subjective evaluation based on listening to enviros complain. At the core of every complaint is the implicit assumption that the enviro thinks they lose nothing by blocking the project. I have never encountered an enviro trying to block a project that they think will benefit them.

IOW - it is all self interest. The idea that enviros are motivated by altruism is a load of crap.

Edited November 7, 2013 by TimG

[waldo]

It is a subjective evaluation ... IOW - it is all self interest. The idea that enviros are motivated by altruism is a load of crap.

oh... subjective? I've been so misled by the inherent fact-based absoluteness and argument from authority that you project.

[TimG]

It's there by implication (and by definition).

You have not made any assertions in this thread that indicate profound ignorance. Having a different opinion does not make one clueless. I find it strange that you taking waldo's nonsense as if it had actually relevance. Edited November 7, 2013 by TimG

[Shady]

And a big chunk the money that is spent goes to "environmental impact studies" instead of actually building stuff.

Yep, it's a clever scheme they have going. It's kind of Orwellian.

[waldo]

It's kind of Orwellian.

you just labeled OCare "Orwellian" and now... this! New word of the day?

[waldo]

You have not made any assertions in this thread that indicate profound ignorance. Having a different opinion does not make one clueless. I find it strange that you taking waldo's nonsense as if it had actually relevance.

right... I won't bother to round up those recent clueless labels you attached to two other MLW members... for simply not agreeing with you... for having a different opinion than yours!

[Shady]

right... I won't bother to round up those recent clueless labels you attached to two other MLW members... for simply not agreeing with you... for having a different opinion than yours!

Right. Like you and global warming.

[waldo]

Right. Like you and global warming.

have I labeled you clueless? Point me to the offending post and I will certainly provide an appropriate correction to more fully qualify your input/level of engagement. Please, let me make amends! Peace-out!

[Shady]

have I labeled you clueless? Point me to the offending post and I will certainly provide an appropriate correction to more fully qualify your input/level of engagement. Please, let me make amends! Peace-out!

Yes, you've called everyone names. It's probably why you've been out on probation so many times.

Anyways, just have the honesty to own up to the consequences of the policies you champion. Admit that energy prices will be higher, abd that infrastructure will be more difficult. Just be honest.

[waldo]

Yes, you've called everyone names. It's probably why you've been out on probation so many times.

uhhh... where's the post you'd like me to correct... the one where you claim I've labeled you clueless? Many times probation??? How much is a many in ShadyWorld?

go find that post - amends must be made!

[bleeding heart]

It is a subjective evaluation based on listening to enviros complain. At the core of every complaint is the implicit assumption that the enviro thinks they lose nothing by blocking the project. I have never encountered an enviro trying to block a project that they think will benefit them.

IOW - it is all self interest. The idea that enviros are motivated by altruism is a load of crap.

Well, then we merely disagree, which I suppose is not unusual. I assume all sorts of notions--those with which I agree, don't agree, or am neutral--are generated from the utmost sincerity, and genuine, non-selfish concerns. I don't consider this to be a radical view, and by definition it is not a politically-partisan one.

[Shady]

It is a subjective evaluation based on listening to enviros complain. At the core of every complaint is the implicit assumption that the enviro thinks they lose nothing by blocking the project. I have never encountered an enviro trying to block a project that they think will benefit them.

IOW - it is all self interest. The idea that enviros are motivated by altruism is a load of crap.

You're quite right. Extreme environmental regulations are the biggest hurdle nowadays to any construction or infrastructure project. Heck, even the president admitted it!

The permit process has gotten out of control.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Shady

[bleeding heart]

Where is the list of jobs-creating, vital industry infrastructure that has been stymied by "enviros," anyway?

[Shady]

Where is the list of jobs-creating, vital industry infrastructure that has been stymied by "enviros," anyway?

There's a bunch of it in Obama's recovery and stimulus bill. Did you watch the video regarding shovel ready jobs?

[GostHacked]

uhhh... where's the post you'd like me to correct... the one where you claim I've labeled you clueless? Many times probation??? How much is a many in ShadyWorld?

go find that post - amends must be made!

As much as I disagree with Shady on MANY things, your use of 'Shadyworld' or other items followed by the TM(trademark) does not facilitate proper responses. It's condescending in tone, and the main reason people are put off and are unwilling to reply to much of what you say.

[dre]

This isnt about "enviros" blocking projects. Theres over a trillion dollars worth of infrastructure due just in repairs and upgrades alone. The reason theres no spending is because theres no money... States, cities, and municipalities are broke.

As fun as it is for hacks to trot out their personal boogeymen as the cause for everything bad on earth, thats just a fact.

[BubberMiley]

Yes, you've called everyone names.

I'm still waiting for the apology for calling me a "Rob Ford birther," but I realize you're too embarassed to visit that topic again.