Surrey Panorama Ridge BC By-Election

[Cartman]

What has happened in BC is obscene as the BC Campbell Liberals have reduced the government intake from income taxes and raised the revenue from sales taxes and user fees.

Agreed, they impact some people more than others. All of those little fees do add up in the end. They are really annoying especially after you have already paid your income tax. I think that really irritates people.

Health care premiums are a good example. After you have already paid your federal and provincial taxes, the government requires a premium and now considers user-fees? Then there is talk of privatizing services? Sometimes I wonder where my taxes are going.

It would be easier for the individual and more efficient to have services paid for entirely by taxation, but I think we know why that has not happened.

[Stoker]

It would be easier for the individual and more efficient to have services paid for entirely by taxation, but I think we know why that has not happened.

How's that? I'm not trying to be billigerent, but I recieve extended healthcare and dental through Blue Cross for about $40 bucks a month......nothing to complex there, I put the money in my account, the bank wires it monthly.

I would be intrested in finding out what the "average American" pays monthly for Health Insurance (compared to us via taxes) and how that before mentioned "average American" finds their Healthcare services (compared to the average Canadian).

[Cartman]

I have no problem with how much we pay for health care here at all. We have a very efficient system especially relative to the United States. But what bugs me is the way we keep getting so many of these little fees added on after we have already paid provincial and federal taxes. I would expect that it would be more efficient for the government to just use the tax base for these fees rather than creating yet another level of bureaucracy. For every layer, there are added costs. I cannot remember the exact costs because it was some time ago, but when Mulroney implemented the GST, a good percentage of the entire take went just to pay for the new bureaucracy that implemented it.

I will agree with right wingers on one issue, bureaucracies are incredible at finding ways to get more tax $$ in an effort to be more efficient to spend fewer tax dollars.

[Stoker]

What I would like, would be for the government to come up with the average cost to the indiviual taxpayers for healthcare, then compare that with private insurance.

Then allow the option to "opt out" of the government health insurance and recieve a tax break equal (or close to equal) to that of the before mentioned "average" cost.

There will still be the current system for the poor, and the indiviual Canadian can choose if they want the current system or a private one.

[Guest eureka]

I can't tell you what the average American or Canadian pays for Healthcare. I can tell you that The US spends about 14% of GDP and Canada about 9%

For that much greater average expenditure, America gets one of the best systems for the wealthy and one of the worst for the poor. It gets 45 million people with no coverage.

For 6% of GDP, France gets what is rated as the best system.

[kimmy]

I can't tell you what the average American or Canadian pays for Healthcare. I can tell you that The US spends about 14% of GDP and Canada about 9%

For that much greater average expenditure, America gets one of the best systems for the wealthy and one of the worst for the poor. It gets 45 million people with no coverage.

For 6% of GDP, France gets what is rated as the best system.

And yet, France's system incorporates user fees and for-profit elements that would be against the Canada Health Act.

-kimmy

[maplesyrup]

I would equate the US health care system with the US dolla. An unmitigated disaster these days. No one in their right mind would want a US health care approach unless they get profits from privatization of health care. The people the very right wing Fraser Instute shills for.

[Guest eureka]

It does indeed, Kimmy. We should be looking at where those things are appropriate and actually cost effective. I suspect that we have elements in our system that are equivalent to the fees and to private care that are not a benefit.

We spend too much moral energy shouting about healthcare and none in looking at other examples other than comparing ourselves to the US.

Switzerland is ranked equal to France at the top and its system is much less public and much more expensive. Perhaps we should look at ehat the two countries do well and why it costs so much less in one than the other. We don't need to look at the American since there is really no system there; just a jumblr of competing profiteers.

[Cartman]

Let me get this straight. The dollar is strong, our industrial output quite high, record surpluses, a new 10 year fed/prov agreement on health care and some people still try to find alternative ways to make individuals fund health care US style (users fees, privatization etc)? I will never vote Liberal, but give them some credit. Maybe health care is actually on the mend.

[Stoker]

We spend too much moral energy shouting about healthcare and none in looking at other examples other than comparing ourselves to the US.

Well said.......I can't think of anyone that wants a system based on what the Americans have. With that said, we shouldn't be so closed minded to not look at other approachs to fixing healthcare, be they European, Asian or American.

IF we kept government health insurance for those that want/need it and have the government maintain certain standards, I don't see any reason NOT to have private Healthcare providers within Canada.

[caesar]

IF we kept government health insurance for those that want/need it and have the government maintain certain standards, I don't see any reason NOT to have private Healthcare providers within Canada.

Why would we want to do that. People changing jobs get caught without insurance. Insurance companies refuse insurance to someone with a pre existing disease.

I would rather see co payments for those who visit a doctor too often without a serious disease that needs close observance. We have all heard horror stories of medical problems in the USA. People losing their homes to pay the costs. Fine tune our system; it can be done.

[kimmy]

Let me get this straight.  The dollar is strong, our industrial output quite high, record surpluses, a new 10 year fed/prov agreement on health care and some people still try to find alternative ways to make individuals fund health care US style (users fees, privatization etc)?  I will never vote Liberal, but give them some credit.  Maybe health care is actually on the mend.

Why is it in this country that any discussion of updating the health care system somehow always ends at "we don't want a US style system"?

As Eureka noted, the French system is among the best in the world, if not the best. The French system has elements of both private and public healthcare. But instead of analysing what aspects of their system make it efficient, we somehow wind up in the same old argument, as if Canadian-style and American-style were the only two health-systems in the world.

Eureka's comment couldn't be more apt: "We spend too much moral energy shouting about healthcare and none in looking at other examples other than comparing ourselves to the US."

Is healthcare actually on the mend in Canada? We had a big highly-publicized summit where the provinces teamed up to wail and scream until the Liberals agreed to honor *some* of the promises they made during the election, and replace *some* of the funding shortfall they've created over the past 11 years, and we're ready to declare the system fixed?

No wonder they find governing this country so easy.

-kimmy

[Cartman]

Why is it in this country that any discussion of updating the health care system somehow always ends at "we don't want a US style system"?

Why privatize or create user fees when there is already sufficient funding available? User fees were implemented a long time ago and were judged to be unfair to the poor. It was done in Saskatchewan. We do have a surplus and the provinces and the feds have reached agreements already. If anything, we should be looking at ways to maintain the principles of Canada Health Care including the ideas set forth by the Romanow Report which spent some time and money going across the country listening to Canadians. I do not hear this from you. The only "update" I hear of is individualizing it and that is why I say US style health care. Updates are fine if they are the ones mentioned in the Romanow Report, but not if they include user fees and other punitive measures aimed at sick people.

[Cartman]

I believe that the NDP won this by-election and show promise in the spring election because they can be trusted to not to implement individualistic medicine in the province. Campbell on the other hand cannot.

[Stoker]

Why would we want to do that. People changing jobs get caught without insurance. Insurance companies refuse insurance to someone with a pre existing disease.

In both those cases, thats why government insurance is kept.

[maplesyrup]

One does not have to be a health care expert, whatever that means, to understand basic math.

Private means profits or bankruptcy.

To suggest that doing something in the private sector is a better deal financially is absurd as profits have to built into the actual costs.

Romanov has offered a process to fix medicare which most Canadians support. Let's get on with it.

[Stoker]

Private means profits or bankruptcy.

To suggest that doing something in the private sector is a better deal financially is absurd as profits have to built into the actual costs.

Damn right it's better........private also mean accountability

and not a bottomless pit for taxpayer's dollars.

Romanov has offered a process to fix medicare which most Canadians support. Let's get on with it.

And whats that?

Mo' money, mo' money, mo' money?

[caesar]

Nationalize Healthcare; let the federal government run the whole show and quit the squabbling for more cash from the provinces for more money. The Premiers have no desire to run our medical system efficiently when it is their prybar to get more money from the fed. Even the Premiers admitted ; it would be cheaper and more equal to have the Federal government run pharmacare.

In BC we do pay medicare premiums to the province; we have also lost many procedures that were previously included; eye check ups, chiropractors, physiotherapy, etc. A much higher deductible on pharmacare for seniors and longer waiting times. All the extra money spent on medical went to doctors only, all others had their wages cut or reduced. We do have private clinics operating in BC and we are facing shortages in hospitals as the employ staff from the public system.

[Stoker]

We do have private clinics operating in BC and we are facing shortages in hospitals as the employ staff from the public system.

Has it been proven that is infact the reason why we have shortages?

If it has, I wonder why healthcare workers would go to the private sector? And on the flip side, why is there a reluctance to say, allow Filipino nurses and Eastern European doctors to continue their trade over here?

[maplesyrup]

Nationalize Healthcare; let the federal government run the whole show and quit the squabbling for more cash from the provinces for more money.  The Premiers have no desire to run our medical system efficiently when it is their prybar to get more money from the fed.  Even the Premiers admitted ; it would be cheaper and more equal to have the Federal government run pharmacare.

In BC we do pay medicare premiums to the province; we have also lost many procedures that were previously included;  eye check ups, chiropractors, physiotherapy, etc.  A much higher deductible on pharmacare for seniors and longer waiting times.  All the extra money spent on medical went to doctors only, all others had their wages cut or reduced.  We do have private clinics operating in BC and we are facing shortages in hospitals as the employ staff from the public system.

I agree. I think the federales should pull the financial plug on any proivince that is dicking around with private clinics, or not living up to national standards, and that goes for Quebec as well.

And then if the provinces protest too much, ask Canadian if they want Ottawa to operate medicare, and put it to a national referedum at the same time of the next federal election. Who cares whether or not it is a provincial matter. The constitution is way too outdated these days anyways.

[Cartman]

Damn right it's better........private also mean accountability

and not a bottomless pit for taxpayer's dollars.

I agree that health care is expensive Stoker, but time and time again our system has been proven to be more efficient. We get more per dollar than the US government. Don't forget, the poor in the US do get medical services and their government does pay for them eventually.

I wonder why healthcare workers would go to the private sector? And on the flip side, why is there a reluctance to say, allow Filipino nurses and Eastern European doctors to continue their trade over here?

I suspect that you have a point here. I would have to see the # of trained nurses first.

[Cartman]

We keep talking more about health care in this thread than BC health care specifically (I have done this myself). Some of us should probably post in the "Health Care" thread in federal politics.

[caesar]

health care should be controlled by federal government; so I am all for making it a federal issue.