Police are shooting the mentally ill

jacee · January 26, 2015

Only because the asylums were horror houses being run according to right-wing sensibilities.

Well ... I'm not sure it had political leanings but... people with mental illness do better in communities with family and other supports and role models, than all lumped together with no 'normal' models, activities and experiences.

Unfortunately, the institutional funding never followed them to the community for services as it was supposed to.

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eyeball · January 26, 2015

They certainly had the leanings from which contemporary right-wing sensibilities spring - much like residential schools, prisons - the meaner and leaner the better.

Bonam · January 27, 2015

Well ... I'm not sure it had political leanings but... people with mental illness do better in communities with family and other supports and role models, than all lumped together with no 'normal' models, activities and experiences.

Unfortunately, the institutional funding never followed them to the community for services as it was supposed to.

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It takes a lot more people, and thus more money, to provide separate care/support/supervision in a thousand different places than it does in just one. Doing something in a single facility may be less nice of an experience, but it also allows a small number of employees to deal with a large number of mentally ill people. Going out into every community and helping people on an individual basis takes far more resources to accomplish.

I don't know how the funding that used to be allotted to institutions got re-allocated, but it's clear that even if the funding had followed them, it wouldn't have been nearly enough. It would have required a many-fold increase in funding to be effective.

Wilber · January 27, 2015

Del

Edited January 27, 2015 by Wilber

WestCoastRunner · January 27, 2015

It would be helpful if there were sufficient community, medical and housing services for the mentally ill.

Here in the lower mainland, BC is re-opening the Riverview Hospital (mental health facility). At one time at the height of its operations, there were 4700 in 1955. They started treating patients in 1913 (basically a locked-up facility for the patients). In 2012 it was shut down and they have now decided to reopen to treat addiction and mental illness. Planning is still underway but it's the right step moving forward for the Vancouver area.

http://www.vancouversun.com/health/Some+mental+health+services+return+Riverview+hospital/10451746/story.html

poochy · January 27, 2015

They certainly had the leanings from which contemporary right-wing sensibilities spring - much like residential schools, prisons - the meaner and leaner the better.

Yea, you probably honestly believe that, which i find very sad.

Edited January 27, 2015 by poochy

eyeball · January 27, 2015

Why wouldn't I believe it when all that right-wing governments do is promise to get tough and crack down and all that right-wing voters do is cheer them on like they were at an ultimate fight match?

The only thing that makes you sad is that everyone doesn't just fall in line.

Keepitsimple · January 30, 2015

I've joined this topic late - so I apologize if I'm repeating other posters' thoughts......it's always annoyed me that the Police are hounded for incidents that result in harm being done to mentally ill persons. It confounds me that the psychiatrists who should be treating these people have enabled them to be put in harm's way. Secondly, how many contacts/confrontations with mentally ill people are actually de-escalated and resolved by the Police.....many times more than the sensationalist "news reports" I suspect. Why do we not hold these medical practitioners to the same standard as Police? Much of this relates back to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms that allows people to refuse treatment - thus enabling the mentally ill to wander the streets like ticking time-bombs. And yet, posters seem to take great pleasure in bashing our last line of defense - the Police. Not only are they expected to be protectors of society - but we've piled on the responsibilities of social-worker and semi-mental health specialists - specifically to fill the social gaps caused by the politically-correct paralysis that infects society today.

jacee · January 30, 2015

I agree that there's too much responsibility on police and emergency services for mentally ill people in crisis. I think police fundraising and advocacy for better services would be a powerful awareness tool.

It doesn't excuse excessive use of force against sick people, though.

It's a training need: Police have community responsibility to keep the peace. That involves more than just criminals, and the methods used for criminals are not appropriate for mental health distress.

Psychiatrists can't make people stay on their meds. Community treatment orders help, but when a person violates the order by going off their meds, is in distress and causing concern in the community, the police must know how to intervene appropriately.

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Edited January 30, 2015 by jacee

Keepitsimple · January 30, 2015

I agree that there's too much responsibility on police and emergency services for mentally ill people in crisis. I think police fundraising and advocacy for better services would be a powerful awareness tool.

It doesn't excuse excessive use of force against sick people, though.

It's a training need: Police have community responsibility to keep the peace. That involves more than just criminals, and the methods used for criminals are not appropriate for mental health distress.

Psychiatrists can't make people stay on their meds. Community treatment orders help, but when a person violates the order by going off their meds, is in distress and causing concern in the community, the police must know how to intervene appropriately.

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Not sure about other cities but in the GTA, police have undergone specialized training for quite some time. As I mentioned, the stories we read about are when things go wrong - we never hear about all the times that their interdictions go right. One sad truth about the mentally ill is that their actions can be erratic and violent - and our Police are human. Training does not equip you for every situation. A sad situation - but letting the mentally ill live on the streets has a price......so while we can criticize an individual occurrence of an officer over-reacting, it's important that we give them credit for being that last line of defence - and all the times that they "get it right".

eyeball · January 30, 2015

My son just checked himself into the emergency ward to try and get help for his deteriorating state of mind the other night. He could sense he was slipping and wanted to avoid being taken in by the police like last time which was pretty traumatic for everyone involved, especially him.

He was told upon his last release that if he started feeling ill again and could get himself into the hospital before it got too bad that they would be able to help him get better again faster. A psych ward is a very scary place and my son mustered an enormous amount of effort, initiative and courage to go seek help this time. He was apparently so scared he was shaking and crying while waiting for the taxi to take him to the hospital. He took the system at it's word and did what he was supposed to do but after hours of waiting in the emergency room to be seen he only became more psychotic until finally...well, guess who they called to wrestle my son into restraints and into an isolation room, the cops...four of them apparently.

The police are faced with the same problem my son, the hospital and all of us face, the lousy funding priorities of politicians. My son has definitely been "treated" by way more cops than doctors over the years. I notice there seems to be no shortage of money for cops these days.

Like I said, the problem of how to better treat mental illness has right-wing conservative and especially Conservative sensibilities plastered all over it.

Edited January 30, 2015 by eyeball

Big Guy · January 30, 2015

eyeball - please accept my congratulations on coping with a child with mental illness. I too dealt with a young family member who continues to fight his personal demons. I personally went through a 3 year depression a few years ago and can empathize with your son and the battles that he has fought. There is light at the end of the tunnel and mental illness is finally getting the acceptance that has been unavailable in the past. The BELL initiative and certain celebrities are now promoting the understanding of this illness that is far, far more prevelant than previously thought.

I believe that the police are now reviewing their approach with a goal of minimizing misunderstandings that lead to shootings and death.

Things will get better.

eyeball · January 30, 2015

My son's getting better too, despite the wait and heavy handed treatment he tried to avoid, my son seems to have gotten help before this psychosis damaged anymore brain tissue. It's great to see police are reviewing their approach. I asked a few how they'd feel about starting a Cops-For-Mental Illness program similar to the Cops-For-Cancer but didn't start any fires burning. I think I'll start emailing that suggestion over their heads, maybe if it trickles down from above it'll seem more like someone important came up with the idea.

In any case, the issue of a lack of funding is the key issue here. It's unconscionable that crime is declining while health issues are climbing and the funding priorities of our governments aren't more appropriate for that simple reality.

I don't know what the cost of calling four cops versus a doctor is but I bet if the cops weren't having to waste their time doing the doctor's job they could be out rounding up Jihadis and lefties instead. One time it took six cops.

jacee · January 31, 2015

after hours of waiting in the emergency room

What a shame. Your son does the right thing to help himself, and then nobody pays attention until his distress causes someone else discomfort.

Maybe calling 911 would get him quicker action and a paramedic to advocate for him?

I believe they can't leave a patient until they are seen by a doctor, so they get quicker service to get them back on the road.

My respect to your son for his strength in dealing with his huge challenges, and to you eyeball.

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cybercoma · January 31, 2015

There does seem to be a disturbing trend of killing people in difficult situations instead of handling those situations like a trained professional.

Keepitsimple · January 31, 2015

There does seem to be a disturbing trend of killing people in difficult situations instead of handling those situations like a trained professional.

After reading this thread I hope what you meant to say was:

There does seem to be a disturbing trend of killing people in difficult situations instead of getting these people the treatment they need and deserve by a trained professional.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Keepitsimple

eyeball · January 31, 2015

after hours of waiting in the emergency room

What a shame. Your son does the right thing to help himself, and then nobody pays attention until his distress causes someone else discomfort.

Maybe calling 911 would get him quicker action and a paramedic to advocate for him?

The cops came last time he called 9/11. They called the ambulance and tried to do what they could but it all still kind of went sideways.

What's really needed is a gentler more timely sort of receiving environment for people suffering from mental distress. The other problem is that when someone does come in and says they need help when they can feel their grip slipping, they're assessed and often released because they're not sick enough yet to be treated.

It's a case of pay a little now when someone comes in or wait till things get worse and pay more later. Hospital staff know this but there is nothing they can do. Everyone knows this.

Smallc · January 31, 2015

In Winnipeg, there is what is effectively a mental health ER. Maybe that should be looked at elsewhere.

eyeball · February 1, 2015

A mental health ER sounds pretty good alright especially if it was attached to a mental health hospital. In Vancouver General Hospital you go through ER and then into the Psychiatric Assessment Unit where you're fed drugs and bounce off the walls until you calm down and a room in a treatment setting becomes available. It can take weeks.

Health authorities basically know and have communicated to politicians how many people in a given population at any given time will require acute mental health care. It's not uncomplicated but it's also not rocket science. It should be little different than figuring out how many fire stations or police stations you need to position around a city, you know, to keep your children and communities safe. I thought that's what a government was for.

poochy · February 1, 2015

Why wouldn't I believe it when all that right-wing governments do is promise to get tough and crack down and all that right-wing voters do is cheer them on like they were at an ultimate fight match?

The only thing that makes you sad is that everyone doesn't just fall in line.

O of course that's it, it has to be, anyway, a mentally ill person can be a dangerous person, that's reality, you can't always fix the world with sunshine and lollipops, of course expressing that obvious reality to you means that i'm an evil conservative, and i don't care about people, but you aren't anything approaching a reasonable person so i don't care what you think. Your opinions are almost universally outrageous, the sensibilities about people with mental issues at that time were very much those of most everyone, to think it was some sort of specifically right wing plan is ludicrous, we, as in all of us, or mostly, simply did not know what else to do with them.

Thankfully we have gotten better, not nearly good enough, but that doesn't mean that in every case we can fix people, and sometimes those people will do bad things and sometimes when protecting the public those people will need to be stopped. I understand that, i wish it weren't true, but it is, do you think a man that kills his wife and children and himself isn't ill? If a police officer shot this man before he managed to kill his entire family would you be ok with it, or would you rather risk the horrific outcome to possibly save the ill and dangerous man?

Edited February 1, 2015 by poochy

eyeball · February 1, 2015

I'd just rather someone other than right-wingers we're running so much of the world, that's all I know.

I think it would be better place.

Big Guy · February 1, 2015

I do not believe this to be a left or right issue. For a very long time mental illness was looked at as something one was to be ashamed of and certainly not spoken about. I can remember a time when cancer was looked at in the same way.

I do not blame law enforcement for these killings. Policemen are not psychiatrists and when dealing with somebody armed have to assume that the individual is not suffering from mental illness but "normal" and just plain dangerous. A few second hesitation can cost a policemen and other innocents their lives.

I believe that the vast, vast majority of those who are in law enforcement are decent, sensitive people whose first priority is to serve and protect.

eyeball · February 1, 2015

I do not believe this to be a left or right issue. For a very long time mental illness was looked at as something one was to be ashamed of and certainly not spoken about. I can remember a time when cancer was looked at in the same way.

Mental illness in and off itself is not a left and right issue. The right wing however makes the issue of mental illness a lot worse than it needs to be. Whether its providing better public funding for mental health, punishing the mentally ill as criminals instead of treating them as patients or defending cops that kill them, you will find a bunch of right wingers doing their best to argue against and block attempts to treat the mentally ill with more public funding, humanity and compassion.

I do not blame law enforcement for these killings. Policemen are not psychiatrists and when dealing with somebody armed have to assume that the individual is not suffering from mental illness but "normal" and just plain dangerous. A few second hesitation can cost a policemen and other innocents their lives.

In rare cases yes but I largely disagree. Police know full well that many of the people they are called upon to deal with are mentally ill. They should never discount the possibility the person they are facing is ill and be better prepared for it, with more non-lethal tools and methods and more training, especially in psychiatry. They should be trained as psychiatric first responders to deal with mental trauma that is on par with and in depth as the training an advanced paramedic receives to deal with physical trauma. Paramedics should be getting psychiatric training too.

I believe that the vast, vast majority of those who are in law enforcement are decent, sensitive people whose first priority is to serve and protect.

I do too, I just think they could be doing a far better job than they have been. I think the reason they're not has a lot to do with many of the godawful right wing sensibilities I've mentioned.

Edited February 1, 2015 by eyeball

Wilber · February 2, 2015

Anyone watch this? Doesn't seem like it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAwavz-sWh0

Edited February 2, 2015 by Wilber

eyeball · February 2, 2015

We all live in the path of harm's way to one degree or another. I'm well aware of what PTSD is.

I'd been on the reserve fire department down the road years before and the chief knew I had a lot first aid training so he called one day to come respond to a kid who'd been caught between a dog fight and mauled by one of them. I arrived on scene and while there wasn't a lot of blood his lower leg was badly punctured, he was in shock and pain but seemed more worried about the dogs. A crowd had gathered and there was a lot of yelling and crying going on. The cops arrived moments before someone shot the dog that presumably bit the kid. The kid reacted really badly to that because he figured the whole thing was his fault and I was still trying to calm him down about the time the ambulance arrived. It definitely took me a few hours to wind down that day, the cops also looked a little worse for wear and the whole village was on edge for days.

I'd hate to imagine how a cop feels when they've shot some poor demented soul who it turned out was just ill. And I can guarantee you that many of the loved one's of ill people who are killed carry a lot of guilt and emotional distress too, it's like a contagious aspect of the mental illness the individual was afflicted with - everyone gets a little sick in the process and many often find themselves on a therapist's couch too. It bears mentioning that mentally ill people are far far more likely to be the victims of violence, instead of being perpetrators.

It's a little weird that the same governments that appeal to those who criticize a lot of the public funding that goes to public health also under-fund the mental health needs of people they most want to see money going towards - like people being put in harm's way. Hey look, there goes a radical! Here quick, hit him with a million or two!