High Salaries for police and firefighters

[Scotty]

I would be happy to see the paramedics and ambulances given to the fire department to manage, and stationed at firehalls.

[Boges]

In Toronto the airwaves are being plastered by advertising by the Toronto Fire Service. They are basically implying that modest cuts to the budget will result in dead babies.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/01/22/we-cant-afford-the-risk-toronto-fire-fighters-paint-dire-picture-if-trucks-are-removed/

The City of Toronto will eliminate four fire trucks and cut 84 firefighters if a budget passed by the city’s executive committee wins approval from city council.

City staff had recommended cutting five trucks and 105 firefighters, but the executive committee on Wednesday voted 7-4 to “add $2-million to maintain an existing truck.”

Mayor Rob Ford voted against saving the fire truck, as did Councillors Frank di Giorgio, Denzil Minnan-Wong and Peter Milczyn.

The recommended budget would leave Toronto with 123 fire trucks in 82 fire stations. It now goes to council for a final decision.

Jim Sales, the fire chief, said the changes will not affect fire response times. He said that in the past year five of the city’s trucks were out of service on any given day, due to firefighters who call in sick.

It's interesting that there was no outcry about public safety when firefighters called in sick en masse.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Boges

[Michael Hardner]

It's interesting that there was no outcry about public safety when firefighters called in sick en masse.

It's not an emotional argument. It's a question of X fires per year require this much coverage and that is that.

[Boges]

It's not an emotional argument. It's a question of X fires per year require this much coverage and that is that.

Is that why the Union is trying to appeal to the public with crying babies and firefighters holding teddy bears?

There are two thoughts on the issue of Firefighter funding.

1) Do you base it on the the number of fires that needed fighting in the past or 2)Do you just have coverage based on response time.

This is why Firefighters almost always beat the police and ambulance to scenes. They base the location of stations throughout the city on response time.

But if they're largely just sitting at the station twiddling their thumb or showing up at fender benders where they aren't required then it's sensible to suggest cutting their budget.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Boges

[Argus]

This is why Firefighters almost always beat the police and ambulance to scenes. They base the location of stations throughout the city on response time.

But if they're largely just sitting at the station twiddling their thumb or showing up at fender benders where they aren't required then it's sensible to suggest cutting their budget.

If you check you tube you'll see just how fast fires grow in only a few minutes. A fast response time is needed. But I also agree they shouldn't be sending truckloads of men for medical emergencies. I like the idea of putting the paramedics under the fire service, ambulances too. Have them at the same fire halls.

Have a look at the graphics in the attached. It shows how drastically the number of fires hasd declined over the years, and how the vast majority of fire trucks now go to medical calls, not fires.

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2012/07/firefighters-dont-fight-fires.html

Now say you have two trucks at a station, with 4-5 firefighters per truck. Since many firefighters have their paramedic training, you could have a far smaller, paramedic truck there as well. When the calli is medical, you send out two guys on the paramedic trucks, instead of 4-5 on the fire trucks. This would probably eliminate most of the current budget for paramedics, though there would probably be additional costs incurred, at least at first, by the fire department for new trucks and additional space at firehalls.

See this article last week. Only 2-5% of fire department responses are for actual fires. The rest are medical calls, most of them non life threatening.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/how-firefighters-fan-the-flames-of-fear/article7445707/#dashboard/follows/

Edited February 2, 2014 by Argus

[ipiqmomo]

Firstly I would just like to make sure nobody thinks I am trying to trash them, or overly protect firefighters in general, and I have never written to one of the forums, so I may be proceduraly off base in my approach.

As to the "no educated need". I don't know about outside of Quebec, but in major cities in Quebec(Montreal, Laval, Quebec, etc) firefighters need 3 years of schooling to get hired(1 year professional diploma, 2 years college) . On top of rigorous written exams, 1 year of probation and another ("nose bleed inducing"exam, to quote a friend) after that year in some cases. Sure there are lots who apply, but the amount of people cut just at those 2 levels is big. (about 10-15% make it to the first, and then maybe 25-30% to the second) After that you aren't guaranteed a job, you have to study for entrance exams, and train full time to get in.

"Firefighting isn't really dangerous." I could see your point, OK so convenience store clerks probably get shot more, but there are probably a few more clerks that firefighters aren't there? So the equation needs to be balanced. On that note, I was also a combat engineer(mine/IED clearance) in the army, I was well payed when I was in Afghanistan, I didn't complain so maybe you shouldn't either. As for the salary of the poor colonel, don't get me started.

Another point, "there are no fires anymore" just the one month internship that I did while in school I went into 3 separate fires, my buddy who's a firefighter in another city had 8 fires in the last 2 months(and by the way, one of the major reasons there are less fires is because firefighters do huge amounts of fire prevention and education. Do your research, since firefighters in major cities have been doing fire prevention the amount of fatal fires has plummeted). OK it doesn't sound like much but if you would like to do three years of school, not be guaranteed a job after that, physically beat your body for years. See, carry, and try to save sick/dead/dying people without wanting to kill yourself. Drive at breakneck speeds (that may result in your broken neck) to get to someone you don't know to save their life. Oh, and lest we forget, the going into the burning buildings thing (and I believe that we established that it's not an urban myth), I invite you to call any major city, and say "I would like this job, and I would like to do it for 40k a year", I think you will be hired on the spot. By the way, most of us would do it for 40k, because it's a passion. Would you keep your job for 50% the salary?

Lastly, the first aid part, yes there are not enough paramedics. Yes their salary sucks compared to ours (at least in Quebec it does, and that sucks). But do you think an ambulance is that much cheaper? Vehicle, customization, equipment, medical equipment(we know that stuff is cheap, and inexpensive to maintain/clean/certify), gas, staff, etc, etc, etc. You know why fire trucks/firefighters are so expensive, because they do everything, if a piece of equipment is needed it's there and if it isn't, then the guys in the truck will make whatever they have work. Cops do what? Stop bad guys and give me tickets. Paramedics do what? Save peoples lives in medical situations. What do firefighters do? Medical intervention, water rescue, search and rescue, confined spaces rescue, high altitude rescue, hazardous material intervention, help citizens in floods, catch their runaway animals, catch their runaway carports when they aren't weighted down properly in the fall and the wind picks up, take care of gas leaks, vehicle accident rescue, fire prevention/citizen education, building/business inspections, help get obese people out of their homes in medical emergency situations, help when the weight of snow collapses roofs, blah, blah, blah... oh yes, fight fires once and a while. Firefighters are the people you call for the "who the hell do we call for this situation people". (by the way, I know paramedics and cops do more than what I said, just making a point)

I hope that this has clarified a few things. If it hasn't and you still wish to complain, next time the walls, ceiling, couch, Christmas tree is on fire and the thing in front of your face might be your hand. I invite you to get up from behind that nice safe computer and come join us.

[Michael Hardner]

"Firefighting isn't really dangerous." I could see your point, OK so convenience store clerks probably get shot more, but there are probably a few more clerks that firefighters aren't there?

Presumably we're talking about rates of violence. According to the book 'The Perfect Storm', fishing is one of the most dangerous occupations and they don't get danger pay per se.

Another point, "there are no fires anymore" just the one month internship that I did while in school I went into 3 separate fires, my buddy who's a firefighter in another city

This is what is called 'anecdotal evidence'. We need to take officially published, and reviewed data into account.

say "I would like this job, and I would like to do it for 40k a year", I think you will be hired on the spot. By the way, most of us would do it for 40k, because it's a passion.

Well that just means that the powers that be will continue to lower the wage until it gets to the point where they can't find qualified people, ie. your 40K figure.

If it hasn't and you still wish to complain, next time the walls, ceiling, couch, Christmas tree is on fire and the thing in front of your face might be your hand. I invite you to get up from behind that nice safe computer and come join us.

So are you saying we don't have a right to question such policies unless.. uh.. we're in a burning room of Christmas decorations ?

[hitops]

Why do you think wages and benefits have nothing to do with the reason they have so many applicants?

My point is exactly that they do. With the current high wages and generous benefits, there is an abundance of applicants nearly everywhere. The wages and benefits should be brought more into balance with the supply of applicants.

It's not fair to the consumers of the service (the municipal taxpayer), to be forced to pay a premium when the same service is available for less, or a nearly equivalent service is available at a far lower cost.

[Wilber]

My point is exactly that they do. With the current high wages and generous benefits, there is an abundance of applicants nearly everywhere. The wages and benefits should be brought more into balance with the supply of applicants.

It's not fair to the consumers of the service (the municipal taxpayer), to be forced to pay a premium when the same service is available for less, or a nearly equivalent service is available at a far lower cost.

I think the quality of applicants is much more important than the number.

[Argus]

I think the quality of applicants is much more important than the number.

I would think pretty much any healthy young man could do the job of firefighting, and probably would like to.

Do you really think we need to pay huge sums to get young men interested in the job? I don't. Same goes for police.

[Boges]

I would think pretty much any healthy young man could do the job of firefighting, and probably would like to.

Do you really think we need to pay huge sums to get young men interested in the job? I don't. Same goes for police.

Yeah but because the deal in public safety, their Union can play the fearmonger card and almost always do.

[Michael Hardner]

I think the quality of applicants is much more important than the number.

How is the quality of these people measured today ?

[Boges]

How is the quality of these people measured today ?

Probably Tenure.

[Argus]

How is the quality of these people measured today ?

I think it's simply a measure of the popularity of the jobs attracts huge numbers of applicants, therefore, they make their requirements higher and higher to weed out most of the applicants. I don't see how this has produced better police than in the past. I've been watching the UK documentary/reality series caleld Coppers on You Tube. Generally speaking, listening to the police in the UK talking, I don't get the impression these are a bunch of sophisticated, well-educated individuals from the upper classes, if you know what I mean. But they get the job done just fine.

[Michael Hardner]

I think it's simply a measure of the popularity of the jobs attracts huge numbers of applicants, therefore, they make their requirements higher and higher to weed out most of the applicants.

Higher how ? Do we require a degree now to be a police officer ? Do we have higher fitness standards ? Would such things even help ?

But they get the job done just fine.

Yes, and ultimately there is a trade off. I'm fine with having the top salaries for teachers, police officers and fire fighters if it attracts the best people, but even at the highest salaries they will want more next time and they will never agree to layoffs, and they will not agree to continued testing or processes to weed out non-performers.

[Wilber]

I think it's simply a measure of the popularity of the jobs attracts huge numbers of applicants, therefore, they make their requirements higher and higher to weed out most of the applicants. I don't see how this has produced better police than in the past. I've been watching the UK documentary/reality series caleld Coppers on You Tube. Generally speaking, listening to the police in the UK talking, I don't get the impression these are a bunch of sophisticated, well-educated individuals from the upper classes, if you know what I mean. But they get the job done just fine.

http://www.abbypd.ca/Police-Officer-Selection-Process

This is the process here. FYI, there are several former UK officers on the Abbotsford force so what makes you think their requirements are any lower than ours?

[Argus]

Higher how ? Do we require a degree now to be a police officer ? Do we have higher fitness standards ? Would such things even help ?

There's no evidence the generally higher standards for police and fire in Canada lead to better police or firefighters than in European countries. It's quite difficult for a white man to get on the police or fire service now in Canada. The jobs were always extremely popular among young men, and now with the high salaries and benefits and basically, security for life, lots of young men want those jobs. The written qualifications aren't that high. But if you want to make it past the competition you need a lot more. Most applicants take college courses, do volunteer work, and take jobs which might in some way suggest both an interest, and some experience. The vast majority of applicants for the fire service will take first aid and even paramedic training since most fire calls are now health calls. Would be cops will take jobs dealing with the public, such as security, to get that under their belt and on their resume. Applicants also bulk up and do their best to reach peak physical fitness levels.

If you simply walk in and apply without all that then you aren't going to stand a chance -- unless you're a minority member, of course, or a woman.

Yes, and ultimately there is a trade off. I'm fine with having the top salaries for teachers, police officers and fire fighters if it attracts the best people, but even at the highest salaries they will want more next time and they will never agree to layoffs, and they will not agree to continued testing or processes to weed out non-performers.

There's no evidence that our police, firefighters and teachers, all of whom are pretty much the highest paid on earth, perform better than their lower paid counterparts in Europe or the US. Barring that evidence I don't see why we are paying them so much.

[guyser]

It's quite difficult for a white man to get on the police or fire service now in Canada.

Photographic evidence suggest you didnt stop for a moment and look this up.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2011/01/13/16877876.html

for all the other grads Canada waide....

https://www.google.ca/search?q=ottawa+police+graduate+class&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=LHnyUsKsCamMyQHk2IB4&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1280&bih=551#imgdii=_

Mostly white. <sigh>

If you simply walk in and apply without all that then you aren't going to stand a chance -- unless you're a minority member, of course, or a woman.

If thats true.....why are the majority in the graduate class white? Edited February 5, 2014 by Guyser2

[Michael Hardner]

Barring that evidence I don't see why we are paying them so much.

There are economic reasons for this, as well as the basic fact that paying more generally gets you better applicants to a point. It just stands to reason.

The same goes for the civil service - we could pay them minimum wage for basic jobs so why don't we ?

[Michael Hardner]

Mostly white. <sigh>

If thats true.....why are the majority in the graduate class white?

Guyser - both you and Argus are correct. They hire predominantly white males, and it's difficult to get a job there.

[guyser]

Guyser - both you and Argus are correct. They hire predominantly white males, and it's difficult to get a job there.

The latter part is quite true

It was opined that it was hard for a white guy to get a job there.

Had the line been 'hard to get a job there, then fine, but thats not what was said.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Guyser2

[Michael Hardner]

Had the line been 'hard to get a job there, then fine, but thats not what was said.

It's not as hard for diverse groups to get a job there, though. That's true. That's still different than what people sometimes think: that it's difficult for white males to get a job there because of quotas, or that white males aren't hired. Neither of those suppositions are true.

[guyser]

It's not as hard for diverse groups to get a job there, though. That's true. That's still different than what people sometimes think: that it's difficult for white males to get a job there because of quotas, or that white males aren't hired. Neither of those suppositions are true.

Groups dont apply for these jobs, individual people do.

And yes, there is some attention paid to ethnicity for applicants, since and it appears to work well, is to have some semblance of the community in which they work.

The last TPS graduate class had a makeup of ethnic and women at slightly more than 50%.

Wanna bet what the rest of the class looked like?

[Michael Hardner]

Groups dont apply for these jobs, individual people do.

Bad wording - sorry. It's easier for people from targeted groups to work there.

In any case - you might be able to see how the two popular perceptions espoused by people of left- ilk and right- ilk are slightly off from the mark here ?

[guyser]

of course !