High Salaries for police and firefighters

[Signals.Cpl]

There is absolutely no shortage of people who want to be police and firefighter, nor has there ever been.

Not questioning wether or not there is a shortage of people who want to be police officers/fire fighters or not, question is how many police officers/firefighters we have and how many of those wishing to become one or the other are really the type of person suited for that job. Wanting to do a job and being capable of meeting the standards required for that job are two very different things. Look at how many people in the US want to be SEALs and how many people in Canada want to be JTF2 and CSOR members and then compare to how many actually get in.

A lot of the reasons for the overtime, I'm given to understand are regulations driven by union negotiations. As in the cite I posted in the OP where an arbitrator awarded overtime to firefighters who would have earned it (theoretically) if the city hadn't taken an uneeded truck out of service. One of the main overtime causes for police is court testimony. Whether it's for traffic tickets or murders, police generally testify on their own time. The excuse police departments make is that scheduling appearances during work time takes a cop off the road. But it's the same money, and appearing on their own time earns them time and a half, with a minimum 4 hour payment even if they're there for 15 minutes. It makes no sense at all.

And if you were to have to go and do your job on your off days without being compensated for that you would be happy and do it? Wether an officer needs to be in court for 5min or 15 hours is irrelevant, he should get paid for that time, as to coming during working hours? Well think about it this way, every station/division needs to field say 30 officers every 8 hours at minimum, now imagine if 8-10 of those officers ended up having to go to court, what happens then? The officers are not available to do their job because they are in court which means someone else will have to be called in to make up the numbers and will therefore be paid overtime.

The point I'm making is that the requirement of the jobs is high school diploma. Nothing more. Sure, those who want to be cops and firefighters go out of their way to get all kinds of added education because the competition to get accepted is FEROCIOUS! But all that added edcuation is needed to fight off other applicants, not to do the work. Additional courses or skills acquired on the job are no different than in any other profession where people are constantly upgrading their knowledge, mostly in hopes of promotion.

What requirements should be placed on police officers and firefighters? A Degree in Arts, sciences or Engineering? Is someone with a degree in English really that much more worthy of a higher salary than a police officer or a fire fighter just because of their degree? The requirement for both jobs are specific and have little to do with a university education, many may want to be one or the other but few are truly capable of working either job.

At the end of the day you get what you pay for, cut the pay and quality will go down, its really that simple.

[Wilber]

The point I'm making is that the requirement of the jobs is high school diploma. Nothing more. Sure, those who want to be cops and firefighters go out of their way to get all kinds of added education because the competition to get accepted is FEROCIOUS! But all that added edcuation is needed to fight off other applicants, not to do the work. Additional courses or skills acquired on the job are no different than in any other profession where people are constantly upgrading their knowledge, mostly in hopes of promotion.

Published basic requirements have little to do with the reality of getting any job. When my son was selected for the APD, he was one of six selected from about a thousand applicants. All except one had degrees. The other had two years of college specializing in criminology and psychology and had spent four years working with the police and court system as a victims services volunteer. All except one was thirty or older and all had life experience that made them attractive as applicants. Applicants have to be very fit, the first thing they are subjected to is two days of physical testing. They undergo psychological evaluation and the department will interview selected others such as relatives, teachers and close friends as part of the process. Even after all that, we know they don't always get it right.

They do need that education. The amount of law that is dumped on them at the Justice Institute during training is incredible, along with all the other stuff that goes along with being a cop. Anyone who doesn't have experience with post secondary education would have a very hard time trying to get through. Dealing with the Constitution and Charter of Rights takes a lot of specialized knowledge which has to be continually updated and refreshed. Just dealing with something like warrants can be a week long course. After they make any arrest, they spend hours doing paper work and dealing with witnesses, evidence if they want any hope of Crown pressing charges. Screw any of it up and they are just wasting their time.

One thing that is very different from most other jobs is getting to spend your work hours dealing with the worst elements of our society and the results of their endeavors. Beat up, carved up, shot, OD'd, victims of domestic and child abuse, mangled in auto accidents etc, delivering the news to relatives (that's where things like experience in victims services really helps). Stress in police work is different from most other jobs and its effects are controversial but when the kid graduated, we and his wife were given a book called "Cops Don't Cry" which deals with things like the stresses they are under and how to recognize signs they are becoming a problem.

Hans Selye, the foremost researcher in stress in the world, said that police work is "the most stressful occupation in America even surpassing the formidable stresses of air traffic control.

Guess any schmuck can do that job but as Signals.Cpl says, you will get what you are willing to pay for.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Wilber

[Scotty]

Wanting to do a job and being capable of meeting the standards required for that job are two very different things. Look at how many people in the US want to be SEALs and how many people in Canada want to be JTF2 and CSOR members and then compare to how many actually get in.

SEALS and JTF2 are elite units. The police are not, to put it bluntly, elite. It is not at all difficult to find enough quality applicants. I would hazard a guess that if the salaries were cut by 40% it still wouldn't be hard to find enough quality applicants.

, every station/division needs to field say 30 officers every 8 hours at minimum, now imagine if 8-10 of those officers ended up having to go to court, what happens then? The officers are not available to do their job because they are in court which means someone else will have to be called in to make up the numbers and will therefore be paid overtime.

Of course if they have to do official work on their own time they should be compensated. That is why they should not be doing official work on their own time. Your mind seems to have skipped the elementary logic that if we do have 8-10 of those cops being paid every day to be in court (at time and a half +)it would make far more sense to hire 8-10 more cops instead, at normal pay. That way they could not only have enough on the street, but there'd be no overtime, thus drawing big savings, enough savings, in fact, to hire more cops. After all, ten cops being paid time and a half every day is taking up the same money as 15 cops being paid regular salary.

What requirements should be placed on police officers and firefighters? A Degree in Arts, sciences or Engineering? Is someone with a degree in English really that much more worthy of a higher salary than a police officer or a fire fighter just because of their degree?

You are missing the point again. I'm not suggesting police and firefighters go the route of teachers and nurses (escalating educational requirements in order to justify overly generous salaries). I agree they don't need degrees. My point was that the lack of education and training required and the large number of applicants do not mesh with the high salaries. It is not unskilled labour, but it is not difficult for most people to learn and do well. The majority of the job involves traffic patrol and minor offenses, after all.

At the end of the day you get what you pay for, cut the pay and quality will go down, its really that simple.

That's an old cannard which doesn't really follow through on salaries. Do we get what we pay for in generous salaries to MPs and MPPS? Senators? City counsellors? If we tripled the pay of firefighters, would we get better firefighers in some way? People who would be better requipped to fight fires or rescue people from trapped cars? I rather think not. Price elasticity works to a degree, but given the inherent numbers of people interested in the position, I doubt we'd have any difficulty at all finding applicants just as capable as that fine young officer in Toronto who shot the guy in the streetcar, those fine upstanding gentlmen in Vancouver who tazer the polish guy to death, or all those cops during the G20 who gleefully beat and arrested everyone in sight without the slightest care or interest in legalities.

[Wilber]

Of course if they have to do official work on their own time they should be compensated. That is why they should not be doing official work on their own time. Your mind seems to have skipped the elementary logic that if we do have 8-10 of those cops being paid every day to be in court (at time and a half +)it would make far more sense to hire 8-10 more cops instead, at normal pay. That way they could not only have enough on the street, but there'd be no overtime, thus drawing big savings, enough savings, in fact, to hire more cops. After all, ten cops being paid time and a half every day is taking up the same money as 15 cops being paid regular salary.

My god, you're brilliant. I can't imagine that any city council or police department has considered that or costed it out. Any department I know of would love to have more officers.

You are missing the point again. I'm not suggesting police and firefighters go the route of teachers and nurses (escalating educational requirements in order to justify overly generous salaries). I agree they don't need degrees. My point was that the lack of education and training required and the large number of applicants do not mesh with the high salaries. It is not unskilled labour, but it is not difficult for most people to learn and do well. The majority of the job involves traffic patrol and minor offenses, after all.

You clearly know little about policing. I can't speak for the RCMP but our department covering 375 sq km both urban and rural with 30km of US border and a population of around 140,000 has about 200 members and 100 support staff. Patrol officers do not do traffic unless it is something blatant. Most of the time when you see a patrol car stopped by the side of the road, it is a patrol officer typing away trying to get caught up by putting his written notes on his computer. His presence tends to slow people down but he is not looking to hand out tickets unless someone is doing something particularly dumb. Of course you have no way of knowing which he is and most people aren't willing to find out. Many of them also do things like surveillance, street undercover and can also be members of other teams like ERT. All of which require special talents and training. The officer you see may be much more than just a cop sitting in a car.

That's an old cannard which doesn't really follow through on salaries. Do we get what we pay for in generous salaries to MPs and MPPS? Senators? City counselors? If we tripled the pay of firefighters, would we get better firefighers in some way? People who would be better requipped to fight fires or rescue people from trapped cars? I rather think not. Price elasticity works to a degree, but given the inherent numbers of people interested in the position, I doubt we'd have any difficulty at all finding applicants just as capable as that fine young officer in Toronto who shot the guy in the streetcar, those fine upstanding gentlmen in Vancouver who tazer the polish guy to death, or all those cops during the G20 who gleefully beat and arrested everyone in sight without the slightest care or interest in legalities.

Just what we need, more cops like those. Make it a minimum wage job. That will do it.

[Signals.Cpl]

SEALS and JTF2 are elite units. The police are not, to put it bluntly, elite. It is not at all difficult to find enough quality applicants. I would hazard a guess that if the salaries were cut by 40% it still wouldn't be hard to find enough quality applicants.

But at the end of the day it is only a guess, the reality is that if you cut the pay we will see the TPS and any other police service and fire department that follows their lead become a revolving door employer, come in gain a couple of years experience and then move on to greener pastures. Now what happens when 50%+ of your department is consistently the new officers? What happens when the experience and knowledge of an organization disappears and you are left with the inexperienced officers?

By the way, the idea is the same wether we are talking about the SEALs, JTF2, Infantry, Clerks or an ACISS Tech it all comes down to being able to do the job and some people no matter their qualifications or desire are not suited to do the job. Same applies to police officers and firefighters, I for one see being a police officer as a harder job than being a member of the military or even a member of the Special Forces units because ultimately you might deploy for six months, a year or two but once in Canada every time you go to work you wont have to worry about someone stabbing you, shooting you, fighting with you etc... or in the fire fighters case the same thing plus going in to burning buildings which causes a whole host of other hazards.

Of course if they have to do official work on their own time they should be compensated. That is why they should not be doing official work on their own time. Your mind seems to have skipped the elementary logic that if we do have 8-10 of those cops being paid every day to be in court (at time and a half +)it would make far more sense to hire 8-10 more cops instead, at normal pay.

You must have missed that in my initial post I stated if you want to stop paying over time you hire more officers. Reality is that hiring more officers will not cut costs though, it might be a necessity but the reality is that with each new officer you would have to pay for his initial recruitment(man hours spend to select him/her, resources spend etc...), initial training, ongoing training, equipment and supplies, medical, dental, death benefits, retirement benefit, workspace maintenance(more officers require more space), vacation time, etc... when all is added up you will be paying more than the time and a half for that officers to go to court outside work hours... I guess you didn't factor in the dozens of hidden costs associated with each officer.

That way they could not only have enough on the street, but there'd be no overtime, thus drawing big savings, enough savings, in fact, to hire more cops. After all, ten cops being paid time and a half every day is taking up the same money as 15 cops being paid regular salary.

True, but that is only right as long as you are looking at a specific point, add up all the extra costs I mentioned above and the 5 extra officers are going to cost significantly more than the time and a half. I am all for more officers as long its for the right reasons.

You are missing the point again. I'm not suggesting police and firefighters go the route of teachers and nurses (escalating educational requirements in order to justify overly generous salaries). I agree they don't need degrees. My point was that the lack of education and training required and the large number of applicants do not mesh with the high salaries. It is not unskilled labour, but it is not difficult for most people to learn and do well. The majority of the job involves traffic patrol and minor offenses, after all.

Police officers and fire fighters are not paid for what they DO, they are paid for what they MIGHT HAVE TO DO. Think 9/11 and the WTC, remember how everyone's instinct was to get out and get out fast while the firefighters, Paramedics and Police officers were doing the exact opposite and double timing it in to the buildings? How many people would have done that?

That's an old cannard which doesn't really follow through on salaries.

Sure it does. Cut salaries and the good will soon leave while the ranks will eventually be replenished with less than capable replacements that will justify ever increasing corruption with their low pay.

Do we get what we pay for in generous salaries to MPs and MPPS? Senators? City counsellors? If we tripled the pay of firefighters, would we get better firefighers in some way?

Not necessary that you would get better firefighters, but cutting the pay sure guarantees that the good will move to greener pastures, when your job entails putting your life on the line on a daily basis and you end up living at or just above the poverty line it means those who can will leave and those who cant leave will stay, and to be fair those who cant leave are usually not the cream of the crop. If the government decided to cut my pay in half I can live with that because Im single and I am ready to face more hardships than if I was married and had children, I can face the hardships but putting my family through unnecessary hardships will lead me to find a better job therefore the military loses a quality member. Same applies to police officers, cut their pay and benefits and you will likely see an exodus because then you will affect the quality of life of the families.

As for the MPs, MPPs, Senators and City Councillors ask that question when they have to fight fire's or face down armed thugs.

People who would be better requipped to fight fires or rescue people from trapped cars? I rather think not. Price elasticity works to a degree, but given the inherent numbers of people interested in the position, I doubt we'd have any difficulty at all finding applicants just as capable as that fine young officer in Toronto who shot the guy in the streetcar, those fine upstanding gentlmen in Vancouver who tazer the polish guy to death, or all those cops during the G20 who gleefully beat and arrested everyone in sight without the slightest care or interest in legalities.

No, but you would get even more people willing to do those jobs, see thats how money works, offer a good salary and benefits and you get a lot of applicants cut said benefits and you get less applicants. You are making the assumption that the same number of people will want to serve and fire fighters and police officers if the salaries were 40%, 50% or 60% of what they are today but the reality is that those numbers will greatly drop as well and you end up with those who cannot do anything else applying, so is it really them you want as police officers?

Ok, so there are 5,400 police officers and you are using one action by one officer as proof of what exactly? So there are 65,000 police officers in Canada at the municipal, provincial and federal level doing a great and dangerous job on a daily basis and you choose two events that were perpetrated by a handful of officers to prove exactly what? That police officers are bad? Cut the pay and those two activities become the norm rather than being an anomaly. As for the G20 what would you have done? Sit and watched those freaks destroy Toronto? I blame politicians for not letting the police lose on those animals that were destroying property as soon as it happened. Think about this, the G8 and G20 happen in a different city/country every time and almost without fail there is violence, destruction and property damage. Now what is the common factor to all those events? Every time it is in a new city thus new police force thus either every police department in every city the G8/G20 has been held is full of bloodthirsty maniacs or the more rational explanation is that thread that binds them all together, the "protestors" who go and commit those violent acts. And I am not talking about the actual protestors who were there to exercise their rights, I am talking about the animals who went there to cause mayhem.

[+]Spelling

Edited August 10, 2013 by Signals.Cpl

[Scotty]

They do need that education. The amount of law that is dumped on them at the Justice Institute during training is incredible, along with all the other stuff that goes along with being a cop. Anyone who doesn't have experience with post secondary education would have a very hard time trying to get through.

I don't buy it. I took a few law courses in college. They weren't that hard. You just needed to memorize some stuff and have a moderate level of intelligence. The law police need is basic. They don't need precedents or complexities. They just need rules of evidence given them, ie what they can and can't do and ask and when they can and why. Following rules is not that hard. The rules of precedent surround the Criminal Code can be complex, but police officers aren't required to make decisions like that. That's why we have Crowns.

Dealing with the Constitution and Charter of Rights takes a lot of specialized knowledge which has to be continually updated and refreshed.

No it's not, not at their level. They just have to follow a set of specific rules regarding when they can enter a premises, when they can seize something, what they can look inside in what circumstances, and how they treat a suspect.

Just dealing with something like warrants can be a week long course. After they make any arrest, they spend hours doing paper work and dealing with witnesses, evidence if they want any hope of Crown pressing charges. Screw any of it up and they are just wasting their time.

The average uniformed officer doesn't make many arrests. And I think most Canadians would be shocked at how few. The truth is the majority of police time is spent on traffic offenses and accidents. The following might be of interest, written by a former mayor of Toronto.

Chief Bill Blair noted in this budget request that in 2010 the police responded to 578,000 calls for service to the end of November — about 630,000 for the full year. There are 5,600 officers, which means that on average each officer responded to about 110 calls in 2010. Since each officer works about 220 shifts per year, this means that each officer responded to one call for service every two shifts.

And it is not as if officers are making arrests on every shift. The average number of arrests per officer in Toronto, as it is in other Canadian cities, is seven to eight per year, that is, one arrest every six weeks, only one crime of which is a crime of serious violence.

One thing that is very different from most other jobs is getting to spend your work hours dealing with the worst elements of our society and the results of their endeavors. Beat up, carved up, shot, OD'd, victims of domestic and child abuse, mangled in auto accidents etc, delivering the news to relatives (that's where things like experience in victims services really helps). Stress in police work is different

I have no doubt working as a cop or firefighter can have its stressful moments. But life is a tradeoff, isn't it? Part of that stress is lack of predictability, not knowing what you're going to be doing that day. A lot of people would give a lot for that. Compared to spending all your days working in a cubicle staring at a computer screen, doing the same work day after day, month after month, year after year... yes, a lot of people are more than willing to accept the trade-off. Lots of jobs are unpleasant, just in different ways.

[Topaz]

I won't knock anyone wages that put themselves in danger at times, if anything, I think many workers wages should be upped to a good living wage like 40,000.00. Many workers don't get a cost of living, and the cost of living still goes up and I think the fed should lower the income tax rate for workers making under 60,000.

[Wilber]

The average uniformed officer doesn't make many arrests. And I think most Canadians would be shocked at how few. The truth is the majority of police time is spent on traffic offenses and accidents. The following might be of interest, written by a former mayor of Toronto.

Ask for a ride along for a full twelve hour shift with your local police department on a busy weekend evening. You will soon find out how full of crap you are.

Chief Bill Blair noted in this budget request that in 2010 the police responded to 578,000 calls for service to the end of November — about 630,000 for the full year. There are 5,600 officers, which means that on average each officer responded to about 110 calls in 2010. Since each officer works about 220 shifts per year, this means that each officer responded to one call for service every two shifts.

On edit.

The former mayor is an ignorant tool. He averages out calls between every cop on the force, not just patrol officers. He's including detectives, special squads, white collar crime cops and even the poor suckers who have the job of trying to nab kiddy porn pervs on the net. Is he really so clueless as to how much work it takes to make many arrests or is he just playing politics?

One more edit.

Does that twit of a mayor think that police officers should never back each other up or that there is, or never should be more than one of them involved in any call? People like that in authority are frightening.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Wilber

[Argus]

You want to see skill? I don't know what the London Fire Brigade pays its drivers, but it's not enough. Holy Christ!

[Argus]

The problem with fire departments, the costs and how they take away from other servives, notably ambualnce/paramedics is a difficult one. You could cut down on the number of fire stations and crews, but in the event you have a fire, or need a rescue vehicle, ambulances are not equipped to do anything but wait around. I agree with those who suggest there needs to be integration here.

The first fire department show I ever saw, way back when, was called Emergency. It was based on the LA fire dept paramedics, who worked out of a firehall. They were firemen, and they responded to health calls on their own, but were also equipped and trained to make rescues, bust doors, go into burning houses, etc. When they needed more people, a pumper would go with them. Or they would accompany the pumper (can't remember if there was a ladder truck) if there was some rescue/fire they were needed at. Not sure if this allows for fewer people on the trucks or not.

One thing for sure, it does not make sense to send a massive fire truck and 4/6 firefighters on medical calls unless they're the only thing available. I understand they often beat paramedics/ambulances to the scene, but I regard that as unacceptable. Response times for ambulances/paramedics are far too high in Ontario, and definitely too high in Ottawa, which, despite McGuinty allegedly having represented the city for a decade, has the worst health care services in Ontario, the longest ER wait times, and, last time it appeared in the media anyway, the longest ambulance/paramedic response times.

[The_Squid]

$70-80k isn't too much for emergency response workers.

[FutureCanadian]

I don't think arbitration and accountability in negotiation on the political side is strong enough nor do I think unions are being collaborative enough. Union in North America tend to be too confrontational. A tipping point is going to be reached at some point fiscally and the situation will probably end up like the UAW where the new guys get paid squat.

I don't think it's unreasonable at all to think that cops and firefighters be paid the median wage and still get solid pensions. Adjust it every so often to inflation. That's good for the municipalities and good for the unions.

If it was only that easy though.

[Wilber]

Police and fire,are essential services and can't strike so don't fit the traditional union model.

[Social Justice]

I believe that emergency services are not paid well enough. They offer their lives in service to citizens and they deserve more than merely good pay. These jobs save lives, period. Nothing being more precious than our lives, that said they are worth it.

[irisheyes]

Quote:

The thing is, 'throwing themselves into a burning building' is becoming, for firefighters, what getting into a gunfight is for cops, something most never experience in their entire careers.

First of all, Ottawa Fire Services responded to 26,370 incidents (fire, medical, rescue, public hazard and other) in 2011 including more than 3,421 fire calls.

Do the math Scotty ..( I'll do it for you as you clearly did not research any numbers or facts before posting this). That's an average of 9.3 fires a DAY!!!

I guess you could say that a lot of those fires are not major fires..and contained fairly quickly....but that is because of the amazing response times fire fighters provide this city. Stopping small fires from turning into major ones. With today's light weight construction and cookie cutter homes the dangers of these fires are more then ever. Stopping them saves lives and the city millions and millions of dollars in property damage.

You talk about pension and health benefits...do you know that because fire fighters are exposed to hazardous materials, toxic fumes and off gasing of burning toxic materials and chemicals their chance of developing Cancer is proven to be twice as high if not more in certain Cancer types then that of a regular citizen? So what...we demand they rescue our families in a burning house... stabalize your brothers neck in an over turned vehicle while extracting him safely and swiftly so he keeps his ability to walk.... ignores the bodily fluids he's kneeling in while providing CPR to your grandma at 4 am in the morning. Pulling bodies from the water...performing ice rescues...hooking up ropes systems with enough smarts to calculate the mechanical advantage needed to pull whatever the task may be to safety...make life and death decissions of who gets treated and who doesnt in mass casualty situations ....imagine you are one of the 4 firefighters that showed up first to the bus/train incident...your scene...yours to manage and control...body parts everywhere.......and you wanna cut their health benefits and pensions??!! ( by the way only the Captain ( 25 plus years of duty usually) of that truck that controls the entire scene makes 100k if lucky. The rest of the guys vary from 48 to 85k depending on time in.

Cops deal with on a daily basis the low of the low. muderers, gangbangers, bikers, drug dealers, rapists, prostitutes, needles, knives, guns, and not to mention the pissed off crack head that spits in your face only to find out they have Hep C......so when you are not looking for " blondes, brunettes, redheads, money and yachts as your profile says you are into...you are walking a mile in these guys' shoes right...saving the day?? i think not

You wanna bring up military, lets go there too. All overseas deployments are ranked on where you go, what level of threat there is in that region and 'hardship' allowance. These are all on top of regular pay. To boot, a soldier is not taxed on his earnings. So lets be clear. A Col overseas is making 9 -11 K tax free a month!! While he sits in a TOC and supervises the grunts doing the dirty work. If you are gonna compare jobs, compare them fairly. Every penny is deserved and earned by our CF.

You say no special training or skills required....first of all....over 5000 people on avg write the fire test. Of those, 600 fall within the test scores needed for a first interview...then a second if they are lucky. From that, the best of the best are selected....if you think showing up with no education, life experience, or skill set that makes you competetive is gonna get you on...well you have another thing coming. Why do so many people show up? The honour to serve ones community while earning a salary to comfortably live in the very community he/she protects isnt such a hard thing to wrap ones head around. And why not give it to them!! Their jobs make the rest of us safer. Our insurance lower. Our houses safer. Our streets safer. And when something bad happens...they run towards the problem...not away. Do they get a dividend check at the end of the year with a percentage of property value saved? Drugs value off the streets? etc etc No...so ask yourself what do you give back?

Services provided by the OFS include: Fire Suppression Services (including fire rescue, tiered medical response, training, communications and incident management); Special Operations (including Water/Ice Rescue services, Auto Extrication, Confined Space, Trench, Collapse and High Angle Rescue; Hazardous Materials responses; Chemical, Biological, Radiological, Nuclear and Explosive Response); Urban Search and Rescue activities and Fire Prevention and Public Fire Safety Education (including fire prevention inspections, determination of cause and origin of fires, attendance at public education events and dissemination of public fire safety educational materials)....when you get home...what can you say you did at work today to be so deserving of what bread you brought home?

Stay safe!

[Scotty]

Do the math Scotty ..( I'll do it for you as you clearly did not research any numbers or facts before posting this). That's an average of 9.3 fires a DAY!!!

Ok, but the vast majority are car fires, brush fires and small fires which present no particular danger to the firefighters. And yes, toxic fumes used to be an issue, but that's why firefighters now wear masks.

Services provided by the OFS include: Fire Suppression Services (including fire rescue, tiered medical response, training, communications and incident management); Special Operations (including Water/Ice Rescue services, Auto Extrication, Confined Space, Trench, Collapse and High Angle Rescue; Hazardous Materials responses; Chemical, Biological, Radiological, Nuclear and Explosive Response); Urban Search and Rescue activities and Fire Prevention and Public Fire Safety Education (including fire prevention inspections, determination of cause and origin of fires, attendance at public education events and dissemination of public fire safety educational materials)....when you get home...what can you say you did at work today to be so deserving of what bread you brought home?

Look, I'm not questioning whether firefighting, or for that matter, policing or military service are worthy jobs. They are. I'm questioning why they need to be paid more than just about anywhere else in the world.

For example, have a look at the salary listing for the London Fire Brigade (UK). I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest they do everything the OFS or for that matter, the TFS does. I believe the TFS now pays $90,000 for a first class firefighter and assume the OFS rate is in that neighbourhood.

http://www.img.fbu.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/njc-06-12-pay-award-final.pdf

[Human_Observer]

"Do the math Scotty ..( I'll do it for you as you clearly did not research any numbers or facts before posting this). That's an average of 9.3 fires a DAY!!! "

9.3 fires a day is not a lot of fires when you consider Ottawa has at least 25 stations.

The problem is some stations do more work then others, and certain days of the year are busier then others.

[GostHacked]

Argus that clip is awesome. Something I never noticed before was how the other guy changed up the siren sound. Now it makes sense. Long and slow for a clear run, short and fast to say GTFOTW!!!

[PIK]

I live in a small town with a few firemen making the 100gs. And I don't believe someone in a small town should be making the money that a firemen in toronto does. Our highest building is 3 floors, and we just dropped a mil on a new ladder truck.

[guyser]

I live in a small town with a few firemen making the 100gs. And I don't believe someone in a small town should be making the money that a firemen in toronto does. Our highest building is 3 floors, and we just dropped a mil on a new ladder truck.

Care to name said town?

I doubt any of what you wrote is true , the Fire Chief only makes $105Gs in the largest city in the valley.

[PIK]

Care to name said town?

I doubt any of what you wrote is true , the Fire Chief only makes $105Gs in the largest city in the valley.

No I will not, and yes it is true. This is probably with the over time.

[guyser]

No I will not, and yes it is true. This is probably with the over time.

yea....

[hitops]

If there are many applicants for the job, it's only fair and responsible to the taxpayer paying the bill to lower the wages. It's exploitation to make us pay for something when we could get it at a lower cost.

Will I want those services when I'm in trouble? Yes. Will those personnel also be available at lower wages? Also yes, as evidence by the many applicants for those jobs.

Edited December 16, 2013 by hitops

[Peter F]

Will those who are hired from those many applicants stick around at lower pay or will they, after five or six years, move on to higher paying FD's?

[Wilber]

If there are many applicants for the job, it's only fair and responsible to the taxpayer paying the bill to lower the wages. It's exploitation to make us pay for something when we could get it at a lower cost.

Will I want those services when I'm in trouble? Yes. Will those personnel also be available at lower wages? Also yes, as evidence by the many applicants for those jobs.

Why do you think wages and benefits have nothing to do with the reason they have so many applicants?