TTC Police Shooting

[Guest American Woman]

Good article: Hold judgment on Yatim shooting, says police trainer

"It's fine to demand answers but there is a period of time that is required for due process to occur," Syd Gravel, a retired staff sergerant from the Ottawa Police Service said......

Gravel says the shooting of Yatim has brought about a lot of flashbacks to the time, 26 years ago, when he shot and killed a robbery suspect after he refused a command and made a move Gravel deemed was a threat to his partner.

In the aftermath of that shooting, which Gravel said nearly destroyed his life, one of the things he found most frustrating was the questions and judgment he faced by the public, close friends and family. ...

A passenger/witness describes Yatim as looking crazed and "screaming obscenities. I remember hearing, 'You’re a f--king p---y. you bitches, you f--king bitches.'”

Not quite the calm young man that he's so often being described as. The cop can't answer questions, as Gravel says, so we don't know what he saw/heard/thought before we get the results of the investigation. I can't help but wonder how so many people believe they can draw conclusions without having all of the information.

Edited August 4, 2013 by American Woman

[Guest Derek L]

Good article: Hold judgment on Yatim shooting, says police trainer

"It's fine to demand answers but there is a period of time that is required for due process to occur," Syd Gravel, a retired staff sergerant from the Ottawa Police Service said......

Gravel says the shooting of Yatim has brought about a lot of flashbacks to the time, 26 years ago, when he shot and killed a robbery suspect after he refused a command and made a move Gravel deemed was a threat to his partner.

In the aftermath of that shooting, which Gravel said nearly destroyed his life, one of the things he found most frustrating was the questions and judgment he faced by the public, close friends and family. ...

A passenger/witness describes Yatim as looking crazed and "screaming obscenities. I remember hearing, 'You’re a f--king p---y. you bitches, you f--king bitches.'”

Not quite the calm young man that he's so often being described as. The cop can't answer questions, as Gravel says, so we don't know what he saw/heard/thought before we get the results of the investigation. I can't help but wonder how so many people believe they can draw conclusions without having all of the information.

Indeed, and as mentioned in the Star article I provided above, several of the teenage & younger passengers initially thought “gun”…….frantic calls ensue to the police about a crazed man on transit trying to kill teenagers, this of course is passed on by 911 dispatchers to police who respond, to find an armed combative person….all in a mater of minutes I might add……police tell him to drop his weapon, he doesn’t comply and moves towards police……And get’s shot for his troubles.

I highly doubt the passengers/driver or police sought this outcome, but the question remains, what did Mr Yatim seek? Fore the night’s events would not have transpired as they did if Mr Yatim didn’t threaten passengers with a knife well exposing himself or when confronted by the police , if he had just “dropped the knife”.

I truly have zero sympathy for the young man since the results are a response to his own actions.

[Guest American Woman]

I have sympathy for all involved as I don't know why the young man acted as he did, either. At any rate, I feel for his family who is suffering his loss. I do know that the cop's life has changed forever too, as well as his family's, and I can't understand the hostility that is being directed at him - and police officers in general.

[Guest Derek L]

And another report from the Star on Sammy Yatim:

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/07/30/sammy_yatim_shot_by_police_was_trying_to_get_life_back_on_track.html

A few quick points on his character:

The 18-year-old had left his home in June after disagreements with his father over smoking pot and not having a steady job, friends say. He was struggling to live independently and get his life on track.

I doubt smoking pot makes one violent......I wonder if we was into other harder drugs?

Yatim came to Toronto to live with his father after his parents divorced. His mother still lives in Aleppo in Syria but has come to Toronto to deal with her son’s death.

Friends said he deeply missed his home country, where he returned most summers, but he didn’t appear to be affected by the civil war there. He was close to his mother, a pediatrician, and fiercely protective of his 16-year-old sister Sarah

I've heard Aleppo is nice this time of year:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/03/syrian-rebels-un-aleppo-footage

Videna said Yatim was focused on finding a job and starting college in the fall. He had just graduated from Brébeuf College after repeating Grade 11. “The last time I saw him, all he talked about was, ‘I gotta get my life straight. I’m 18 years old and I’m pretty much not going anywhere.’ ”

Actions speak louder then words I suppose.....

Another school friend, who asked not to be identified, said Yatim carried a knife everywhere and even bragged about owning a gun. But the friend didn’t think he was capable of harming anyone. “For him to stab somebody, I don’t think he had the hand-eye co-ordination.”

Yatim is also believed to have practised Systema, a Russian martial art that can involve hand-to-hand combat and the use of knives and guns.

But I thought:

“Sammy was scared of bugs,” said Schifitto. “He wouldn’t hurt anyone. He liked helping people.”

By brandishing a knife and his penis?

So just your regular ole teen that collected, carried and bragged about knives (and a gun), practiced martial arts, was kicked out of the family home over his drug use and being an overall loser, well making yearly trips to the epicentre of the Syrian civil war……..What a sweet young man.

[ReeferMadness]

Good article: Hold judgment on Yatim shooting, says police trainer

"It's fine to demand answers but there is a period of time that is required for due process to occur," Syd Gravel, a retired staff sergerant from the Ottawa Police Service said......

I have sympathy for all involved as I don't know why the young man acted as he did, either. At any rate, I feel for his family who is suffering his loss. I do know that the cop's life has changed forever too, as well as his family's, and I can't understand the hostility that is being directed at him - and police officers in general.

If people had any level of confidence that there will be due process, you wouldn't be seeing the same level of reaction. The "due process" will drag on for months and months. No doubt, it's hoped that the public interest and outrage will die down over time, Then, when the inevitable happens and the cops are cleared, there will be a couple of small headlines and everything will be forgotten. Until the next trigger-happy cop needs a notch on his belt.

[ReeferMadness]

And some witnesses that were on the Streetcar:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/08/04/sammy_yatim_what_happened_in_the_words_of_witnesses.html

I’ll predict the investigation is less than a year and the officer is cleared.........crazy guy with a knife and his dink out threatens teenagers on public transit, is told to drop weapon by police, he advances towards police (as shown in the videos) and an officer drops him.....case closed.

I predict you're right - the cop is cleared in almost all of these cases, which is why people are right to be outraged.

Your summary of events leaves out a few things, such as

• He had ample opportunity to attack unarmed people in the streetcar but didn't
• Of the 9 bullets that were fired, 6 were fired after the guy was down on his back
• He was tased after being shot 9 times (WTF??)

[jacee]

By brandishing a knife and his penis?

So just your regular ole teen that collected, carried and bragged about knives (and a gun), practiced martial arts, was kicked out of the family home over his drug use and being an overall loser, well making yearly trips to the epicentre of the Syrian civil war..What a sweet young man.

None of that matters a bit.

He was 'crazed' ... whether by drugs or mental health issues doesn't matter either.

What matters is how police conduct themselves in such situations.

People in that kind of mental distress, regardless of how they got that way, do not respond rationally to police commands.

Police need a new strategy for such incidents that doesn't rely on compliance with verbal orders ... or death.

What are the police procedures for dealing with what they seem to call 'excited delerium'?

Do they not have any yet?

Edited August 5, 2013 by jacee

[Guest Derek L]

Your summary of events leaves out a few things, such as

• He had ample opportunity to attack unarmed people in the streetcar but didn't

I’ve no idea, I would assume that once one decides to brandish a weapon well exposing themselves, reason has left the equation.

• Of the 9 bullets that were fired, 6 were fired after the guy was down on his back

Again, I’ve asked if anybody knows how many of the 9 actually hit him?

• He was tased after being shot 9 times (WTF??)

He was shot at 9 times......then as can be seen in the videos, the police approach, stop, retreat, tell him to drop the knife, then taser him..........One can deduce that he still had a knife and presented enough of a threat for several approaching officers to halt.....

[Guest Derek L]

What are the police procedures for dealing with what they seem to call 'excited delerium'?

Do they not have any yet?

It depends.......Here's a graph, from the National Post, highlighting threats and the corresponding police responses:

http://wpmedia.news.nationalpost.com/2013/07/force2.jpg?w=620&h=952

[ReeferMadness]

I’ve no idea, I would assume that once one decides to brandish a weapon well exposing themselves, reason has left the equation.

Again, I’ve asked if anybody knows how many of the 9 actually hit him?

I don't claim to be a weapons expert (although I did fill a paper target with 9mm holes once), if the good officer couldn't hit a stationary target at the range Sammy was at (15 feet maybe), he should really find another line of work. And the position of Sammy's twitching legs after the first 3 shots clearly show that he was down. Maybe the cop just thought he was taking a rest??

He was shot at 9 times......then as can be seen in the videos, the police approach, stop, retreat, tell him to drop the knife, then taser him..........One can deduce that he still had a knife and presented enough of a threat for several approaching officers to halt.....

One can deduce anything one bloody well wants. As I said, Sammy was clearly down. IF he was holding the knife, it may well have been just a case of his body reacting to the trauma by clenching. Sammy may be been completely unaware of his surroundings. In any case, he was down. There can be no argument that the cop thought he was in mortal danger as he fired the last 6 shots.

[Guest Derek L]

I don't claim to be a weapons expert (although I did fill a paper target with 9mm holes once), if the good officer couldn't hit a stationary target at the range Sammy was at (15 feet maybe), he should really find another line of work. And the position of Sammy's twitching legs after the first 3 shots clearly show that he was down. Maybe the cop just thought he was taking a rest??

15-20 feet, at night, well under stress, firing a more powerful cartridge (then a 9mm) had might as well been a mile……….And I use to shoot IPSC.....I would be surprised if more than 30-40% of the shots hit him……I guess that will come out in time though.

One can deduce anything one bloody well wants. As I said, Sammy was clearly down. IF he was holding the knife, it may well have been just a case of his body reacting to the trauma by clenching. Sammy may be been completely unaware of his surroundings. In any case, he was down. There can be no argument that the cop thought he was in mortal danger as he fired the last 6 shots.

Why? As I said, how many hit him, and I’ll add, where did the shots hit him?

One can clearly see in the video, prior to the taser, the approaching police officers reaction.

[ReeferMadness]

Derek, apparently, your view is that the cops can do no wrong. So, I'll let crime specialist and former Toronto police officer Ross McLean do the arguing.

See video here

Choice quotes:

On the takedown

This did not look at all like a good tactical takedown

It seemed to go very fast to an escalation... it just ramped up to the point that there's audio that apparently has the officer very close to daring this young man to step forward and when he stepped forward, that's when he was shot.

On whether 9 shots are reasonable

To me, this is almost... 2 or 3 incidences here. You've got the first shooting and was that justified. The three shots... triple tap.... hit him. And as I suspected all along, that dropped the young man. I mean those bullets are hollow point bullets. They're going to drop you. New video has come out from the store security video that shows him falling back on his back. The pause is while they're looking at him lying on his back and you can see his legs... twitching. The officer who did the original 3 shots is looking at him making an assessment. For some reason, he decided that the was an imminent threat for the first three shots; he was an imminent threat for 6 shots after that. (news commentator: while on the ground).

This is almost like looking at another shooting.

On whether 3 shots should have been enough and how the SIU will see it

TV commentator: How dangerous can you be after you've been shot 3 times?

Ross McLean: Well, this is the question. People will debate and the SIU has given the benefit of the doubt in almost every case to the officer.

On whether the officer did enough to de-escalate the situation.

The Toronto police receive great training on communications. They receive tactical communications about how to descalate something. Some of the things that you do....if you see that pointing the gun at someone isn't working.... it's time maybe to lower the voice and ask the person what's the problem.... you get them talking..... They should be stalling, talking, getting that time til the taser gets there.

On the question of why the shooting started so quickly.

I'm quite frankly disturbed by it. You see other officers sitting there who are not too worried about this person coming at them. They came quick and the scary part for me is that they came after almost a dare by that officer.

On the powers of the SIU to get to the bottom of this.

They're limited in what they can say. They're limited in what they can charge. They're limited in what they can talk about.

On whether better training will even work

Did the officer follow his training. That's the question for me. I've talked to other officers in the past where they say yah, we get the training in the college on this but you know what? That's for the college and not on the street. So, it doesn't matter if you get the training and you're not going to deploy it.

Pretty damning stuff. And then people wonder why the police aren't well regarded.

Edited August 5, 2013 by ReeferMadness

[Guest Derek L]

Derek, apparently, your view is that the cops can do no wrong. So, I'll let crime specialist and former Toronto police officer Ross McLean do the arguing.

See video here

Choice quotes:

On the takedown

On whether 9 shots are reasonable

On whether 3 shots should have been enough and how the SIU will see it

On whether the officer did enough to de-escalate the situation.

On the question of why the shooting started so quickly.

On the powers of the SIU to get to the bottom of this.

On whether better training will even work

Pretty damning stuff. And then people wonder why the police aren't well regarded.

Does officer McLean know how many shots hit him? Or is his opinion formed through the same CCTV/youtube footage we all have seen?

[ReeferMadness]

Does officer McLean know how many shots hit him? Or is his opinion formed through the same CCTV/youtube footage we all have seen?

That's a pretty weak reply. Did you even bother watching the video? Or have you just made up your mind that the police are always right. Ross McLean made a pretty good case that

1. Some police have a tendency to shoot instead of talk
2. In this case, the shooting started way too soon
3. There was no apparent reason for the last 6 bullets, even if you accept the first 3 were justified
4. The SIU probably won't get all of the answers needed

His comments were based not just on this incident but his training and experience. It is rare for a former police officer to even hint at criticizing the police, which makes these comments more powerful.

[Guest Derek L]

Found several other quotes from Ross McLean:

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/07/27/crime-video-doesnt-always-tell-the-whole-story-former-cop-warns

While video is helpful, crime specialist Ross McLean points out it doesn’t tell “the whole story.”

“It’s not black and white but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t deserve a full investigation to see that the correct steps were taken,” he said Saturday.

He also goes on to say:

Video may not tell you everything “but it will confirm certain things,” he added.

For instance, eyewitness footage was a key piece of evidence in the case of Robert Dziekanski’s death. A civilian recorded RCMP officers using a stun gun on the Polish immigrant in a Vancouver airport in 2007. A public inquiry later found the use of the stun gun was not warranted.

“The other thing is, the video can also confirm that the police were justified,” McLean said. “So it’s not just to catch them doing something wrong, it can also exonerate the police.”

So, former officer McLean is offering numerous opinions, based on thew same video that we all have seen

[Guest Derek L]

That's a pretty weak reply. Did you even bother watching the video? Or have you just made up your mind that the police are always right. Ross McLean made a pretty good case that

1. Some police have a tendency to shoot instead of talk
2. In this case, the shooting started way too soon
3. There was no apparent reason for the last 6 bullets, even if you accept the first 3 were justified
4. The SIU probably won't get all of the answers needed

His comments were based not just on this incident but his training and experience. It is rare for a former police officer to even hint at criticizing the police, which makes these comments more powerful.

I've watched it........As he said, determining what shots (or maybe the taser) actually killed him will be important……echoing the same questions I’ve been asking…

And he also mentioned a similar case in which a person was shot multiple times, and was killed by a shot to the head well he was on the ground……the officers were cleared of wrongdoing……

And he also mentioned at the end of the video, he’s no longer knowledgeable of current Toronto police policies.

[ReeferMadness]

Found several other quotes from Ross McLean:

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/07/27/crime-video-doesnt-always-tell-the-whole-story-former-cop-warns

He also goes on to say:

So, former officer McLean is offering numerous opinions, based on thew same video that we all have seen

So what?

Did you miss this choice quote?

“What’s most disturbing about it is the number of shots fired and the pause between the shots,” he said.

“Why did it take nine shots?” McLean asked. “If the three were sufficient to drop him, then did you need to fire the other six or at that point could you just have taken control of him with physical force?”

He explained police officers are supposed to use their firearms when the threat of serious injury or death is imminent.

That doesn't sound at all different from what I said above.

Keep at it - the hole you're digging is getting deeper.

[ReeferMadness]

Another interview with crime specialist and former Toronto police officer Ross McLean. Not very compliementary of police in general, the Toronto police force (particularly with regards to the G20 debacle), or police in general.

More training needed when it comes to lethal force. And police need to follow the de-escalation training, not just the firing range training.

[ReeferMadness]

15-20 feet, at night, well under stress, firing a more powerful cartridge (then a 9mm) had might as well been a mile……….And I use to shoot IPSC.....I would be surprised if more than 30-40% of the shots hit him……I guess that will come out in time though.

Wow, if the police can't do better than that from 15 feet, maybe they shouldn't be carrying firearms at all. By your estimation, it's probable that 5 or 6 of the bullets missed. And he was firing at point blank range.

Someone (it might have been you) claimed earlier in this thread that these bullets could still be dangerous a mile away from where they were fired. It sounds to me like Officer Forcillo firing his weapon may have been more a threat to public safety than a skinny teenager with a knife in one hand and his dick in the other. Particularly after he was lying on his back shot.

[Guest Derek L]

So what?

Did you miss this choice quote?

That doesn't sound at all different from what I said above.

Keep at it - the hole you're digging is getting deeper.

Why would I keep "digging"? My stance hasn't changed, nor my several simple questions answered....even by your linked to former officer.....

Has your opinion of the eventual results of the investigation changed? Even McLean didn't offer a full opinion on if the police were justified, nor what the results will be.....

[ReeferMadness]

And he also mentioned a similar case in which a person was shot multiple times, and was killed by a shot to the head well he was on the ground……the officers were cleared of wrongdoing……

He said SIU cleared the cop. That's not the same thing as saying that the cop couldn't have done a better job or that the cop was justified in shooting a guy on the ground. The point he was actually making is that SIU is letting the police get away (literally) with murder.

Edited August 5, 2013 by ReeferMadness

[Guest Derek L]

He said SIU cleared the cop. That's not the same thing as saying that the cop couldn't have done a better job or that the cop was justified in shooting a guy on the ground. The point he was actually making is that SIU is letting the police get away (literally) with murder.

If SIU "cleared the cop", why then did the Crown not press charges if he still wasn't justified?

And where did McLean make that point?

[ReeferMadness]

Go back to the first video and listen to what he says about SIU. And read my quotes. SIU is limited in what they can do and say. And if there is even the slightest question, they side with the police.

[On Guard for Thee]

"Edged weapons attack"? Have another look at that video and tell me where there was an attack.

[Guest Derek L]

Go back to the first video and listen to what he says about SIU. And read my quotes. SIU is limited in what they can do and say. And if there is even the slightest question, they side with the police.

Yes, I read/watched that part.......so are you suggesting that SIU/The Crown are both in the pocket of the Toronto Police?