Trayvon Martin - The other side of Hypocricy

cybercoma · July 23, 2013

I'm not saying he should be charged with a hate crime. In fact, I specifically said I find the laws in the United States idiotic because they can charge a person multiple times for the same crime, whereas you can't here. But the fact of the matter is that Zimmerman obviously thought he was black, whether or not he knew it is irrelevant.

July 23, 2013

I'm not saying he should be charged with a hate crime. In fact, I specifically said I find the laws in the United States idiotic because they can charge a person multiple times for the same crime, whereas you can't here. But the fact of the matter is that Zimmerman obviously thought he was black, whether or not he knew it is irrelevant.

No, a person can't be charged "multiple times" for "the same crime" in the U.S.; and again, in Canada, you can appeal on an acquittal, which cannot be done here, so in effect the person is being tried a second time for the same crime, even though it's seen as a continuation of the same trial. There's no difference, really. Edited July 23, 2013 by American Woman

scribblet · July 23, 2013

I'm not clear on that. Can Zimmerman be re charged for the same crime, what about the double jeopardy clause in the 5th amendment ?

July 23, 2013

I'm not clear on that. Can Zimmerman be re charged for the same crime, what about the double jeopardy clause in the 5th amendment ?

Apparently federal and state charges for the same conduct are allowed, according to the Supreme Court, because they are separate sovereigns. I don't think they can be charged with the same crime, though - hence, as I understand it, the "federal civil rights violation" charge (which will likely never happen) rather than another murder charge. In the U.S., there can't be an appeal on an acquittal, which is allowed in Canada. So in both cases, it's really a way around the Double Jeopardy law. Canada's stance is that it's not another trial for the same crime, but rather a continuation of the same trial, but really it's not. It's another trial. Just as the U.S. says it's not charging a person twice as one is state charges and one is federal, but really it is. IMO, it's a play on words in both instances that allows the government to get around the Double Jeopardy law - and subject the accused to another trial after they've been acquitted. Edited July 23, 2013 by American Woman

GostHacked · July 24, 2013

I am thinking he said 'looked black' to avoid seeming like a racist. Trying to be all politically correct.

roy baty · July 24, 2013

This case went to trial because "the mob" demanded it and finally got it. As a result, there was the fully expected acquittal and a huge waste of $$s in the process. Anyone who claims this acquittal was racist is saying all 6 jurors are racist and the FBI is as well. Anyone still claiming this was a racist verdict is racist themselves. Also, Obama proved yet again what a weak President he really is.

While I don't agree with everything Bill O'Reilly says, I think he summed up the problem w/race, crime and Obama's handling of all this very well this week:

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/oreilly/index.html#http://video.foxnews.com/v/2562291524001/president-obama-and-the-race-problem/?playlist_id=86923

Edited July 24, 2013 by roy baty

scribblet · July 25, 2013

Oh my, can we post something from Fox on here cos it just can't be true you know.

It took a lot of guts to say those things because they are issues that are always pounced on as 'racist', no one wants to address them.

He is right about the 72% rate of single mothers, surely this is a good part of the poverty cycle.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/39993685/ns/health-womens_health/t/blacks-struggle-percent-unwed-mothers-rate/

Here's another article from Wall Street Journal and a black writer, worth a read.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323394504578608182550247030.html

George Zimmerman's acquittal of murder charges in a Florida court has been followed by predictable calls for America to have a "national conversation" about this or that aspect of the case. President Obama wants to talk about gun control. Civil-rights leaders want to talk about racial profiling. Others want to discuss how the American criminal justice system supposedly targets black men.

All of which is fine. Just don't expect these conversations to be especially illuminating or honest. Liberals in general, and the black left in particular, like the idea of talking about racial problems, but in practice they typically ignore the most relevant aspects of any such discussion. cont...

Edited July 25, 2013 by scribblet

bleeding heart · July 25, 2013

This case went to trial because "the mob" demanded it and finally got it. As a result, there was the fully expected acquittal and a huge waste of $$s in the process. Anyone who claims this acquittal was racist is saying all 6 jurors are racist and the FBI is as well. Anyone still claiming this was a racist verdict is racist themselves. Also, Obama proved yet again what a weak President he really is.

While I don't agree with everything Bill O'Reilly says, I think he summed up the problem w/race, crime and Obama's handling of all this very well this week:

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/oreilly/index.html#http://video.foxnews.com/v/2562291524001/president-obama-and-the-race-problem/?playlist_id=86923

No, the case going to trial was perfectly legitimate. That doesn't mean the verdict was wrong....but to say it shouldn't have gone to trial at all is preposterous.

scribblet · July 25, 2013

Actually, they weren't going to charge him at all because of the defence laws, it was mob rule and pressure that caused them to bring about charges.

However, had Cory not (allegedly) withheld evidence and falsified the arrest warrant there might not have been a trial under Florida laws. Alan Dershowitz says she should be prosecuted.

bleeding heart · July 25, 2013

Whatever reason sparked the fact of the trial, the notion that there shouldn't have been one is silly.

The "defense laws" don't immunize you from a trial, based almost exclusively on your own accounting of events.(Remember, no witness saw the entire altercation, so are useless in whether or not a trial is justified.)

That's insanity. .The shivering logic of the NRA losers, perhaps.

Edited July 25, 2013 by bleeding heart

cybercoma · July 25, 2013

If Zimmerman was black and Trayvon white, nobody would even consider that it shouldn't go to trial.

Shady · July 25, 2013

If Zimmerman was black and Trayvon white, nobody would even consider that it shouldn't go to trial.

Maybe in your mind, but that's just projection.

July 25, 2013

If Zimmerman was black and Trayvon white, nobody would even consider that it shouldn't go to trial.

Speak for yourself. This isn't all about race in everyone's mind.

Bonam · July 25, 2013

If Zimmerman was black and Trayvon white, nobody would even consider that it shouldn't go to trial.

So incorrect.

Black Dog · July 25, 2013

Oh my, can we post something from Fox on here cos it just can't be true you know.

It took a lot of guts to say those things because they are issues that are always pounced on as 'racist', no one wants to address them.

He is right about the 72% rate of single mothers, surely this is a good part of the poverty cycle.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/39993685/ns/health-womens_health/t/blacks-struggle-percent-unwed-mothers-rate/

Is that a surprise when so many African American men are in jail or dead?

Here's another article from Wall Street Journal and a black writer, worth a read.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323394504578608182550247030.html

George Zimmerman's acquittal of murder charges in a Florida court has been followed by predictable calls for America to have a "national conversation" about this or that aspect of the case. President Obama wants to talk about gun control. Civil-rights leaders want to talk about racial profiling. Others want to discuss how the American criminal justice system supposedly targets black men.

All of which is fine. Just don't expect these conversations to be especially illuminating or honest. Liberals in general, and the black left in particular, like the idea of talking about racial problems, but in practice they typically ignore the most relevant aspects of any such discussion. cont...

Yup, they just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Nevermind that they are starting at a disadvantage, never mind the institutional and systemic barriers out there. Suck it up, black people!

Also it's quite sad to read someone who should know better display such profound ignorance as when he talks about black leaders being part of the system as some sort of counterpoint (thus showing he doesn't really understand what is meant by "the system").

GostHacked · July 25, 2013

Also it's quite sad to read someone who should know better display such profound ignorance as when he talks about black leaders being part of the system as some sort of counterpoint (thus showing he doesn't really understand what is meant by "the system").

Guys like Sharpton and Jackson don't care about their fellow black man. They are political tools and only show up in big cases like this.

Black men (damn, men in general) are gunned down all the time. And many would be classified easily as hate crimes coupled with racism. These two mentioned are complete opportunists and seized the moment. Give em a pat on the back. They used this case and threw it into the spotlight. So in my view that makes Sharpton and Jackson, part of the problem.

Black Dog · July 25, 2013

Guys like Sharpton and Jackson don't care about their fellow black man. They are political tools and only show up in big cases like this.

Black men (damn, men in general) are gunned down all the time. And many would be classified easily as hate crimes coupled with racism. These two mentioned are complete opportunists and seized the moment. Give em a pat on the back. They used this case and threw it into the spotlight. So in my view that makes Sharpton and Jackson, part of the problem.

Great. Has fuckall to do with what I'm talking about, though.

GostHacked · July 25, 2013

Great. Has fuckall to do with what I'm talking about, though.

You hinted that guys like Jackson and Sharpton are 'part of the system' which essentially helps keep the black man down. I am basing this on the Wall Street Journal bit that was quoted.

Am I correct in that assessment? Please clarify.

Black Dog · July 25, 2013

You hinted that guys like Jackson and Sharpton are 'part of the system' which essentially helps keep the black man down. I am basing this on the Wall Street Journal bit that was quoted.

Am I correct in that assessment? Please clarify.

Those guys aren't really leaders in the sense teh WSJ guy is talking about:

The left wants to blame these outcomes on racial animus and "the system," but blacks have long been part of running that system. Black crime and incarceration rates spiked in the 1970s and '80s in cities such as Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago and Philadelphia, under black mayors and black police chiefs. Some of the most violent cities in the U.S. today are run by blacks.

GostHacked · July 25, 2013

Black Dog.

That clears things up for me. Local 'leaders' not national-figure types like the two I mentioned.

Black Dog · July 25, 2013

Black Dog.

That clears things up for me. Local 'leaders' not national-figure types like the two I mentioned.

Well he drops this nugget:

The U.S. criminal-justice system, which currently is headed by one black man (Attorney General Eric Holder) who reports to another (President Obama), is a reflection of (the fact black people commit more crimes), not its cause.

I guess it's a question of political leadership versus community leadership. I don't know how much power or real influence the likes of Shrpton and Jackson have, but I'd agree they are part of the system, which pretty much proves my point that a black person in a position of some influence or power does not ipso facto have the best interests of black people at heart (indeed, that assumption is itself kinda racist).

Edited July 25, 2013 by Black Dog

scribblet · July 25, 2013

Is that a surprise when so many African American men are in jail or dead?

Commit the crime, do the time. If they are dead the odds are they were killed by another black person. Read about Chicago lately, what about the stats for the killings. Are all the 'visible minorities' in jail, innocent ?

I have no doubt there is still racism but not the way it used to be, even the U.S. has come a long way. e.g. Pres. Obama, Eric Holder, Clarence Thomas - high positions indeed. It's not all about racism by any means, there other major issues, 72% are single parent families, no wonder they can't get out of poverty. Even if the father isn't in jail or dead they generally are not around, especially not financially. It's time these leaders spoke about these issues instead of race baiting.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/11/george-zimmerman-trial-black-crime

Startling statistics reveal that between 1980-2008, African-Americans were six times more likely than whites to be victims of gun violence and seven times more likely to kill with guns than whites, according to the Justice Department. African-Americans represent a mere 13% of the US population yet more than 50% of federal prisoners are black. You can claim racial bias in the judicial system, but that doesn't explain all of it.

Why aren't so-called black leaders outraged and marching over the recent shooting rampage in Chicago. During the 4 July holiday weekend, including the Wednesday leading up to it, 62 people were wounded by gun violence in Chicago and 12 others killed. The holiday shooting spree raised Chicago's homicide tally to 200 for the year. Last year about 500 people were killed, and most of those killing and being killed in Chicago are black. According to the Chicago Tribune, "blacks make up about 33% of the city's population, they accounted for nearly 78% of the homicide victims through the first six months of 2012"

Black Dog · July 25, 2013

Commit the crime, do the time. If they are dead the odds are they were killed by another black person. Read about Chicago lately, what about the stats for the killings. Are all the 'visible minorities' in jail, innocent ?

No but there's a persistent and documented bias in the judicial system, the education system, the political system that contributes to the cycle of violence and poverty in teh African American community that no amount of bootstrapping can overcome.

I have no doubt there is still racism but not the way it used to be, even the U.S. has come a long way. e.g. Pres. Obama, Eric Holder, Clarence Thomas - high positions indeed. It's not all about racism by any means, there other major issues, 72% are single parent families, no wonder they can't get out of poverty. Even if the father isn't in jail or dead they generally are not around, especially not financially. It's time these leaders spoke about these issues instead of race baiting.

They've moved past outright lynching (for the most part). But to deny the role race plays is to simply deny history. 200 years of slavery and oppression is gonna leave a mark.

The persistent notion that crime, poverty etc are somehow not talked about in the black community is pretty ridiculous, as is the notion that it's a black problem for black people alone to solve.

Shady · July 25, 2013

Liberal democrats have kept them trapped in failing schools for decades. Their failing liberal social policies have utterly destroyed the black nuclear family. And they have the nerve to bring up the plight of the black community? How ridiculous is that?

The last thing Democrats want is a prosperous independent African American community because they could no longer take their votes for granted.

scribblet · July 25, 2013

The persistent notion that crime, poverty etc are somehow not talked about in the black community is pretty ridiculous, as is the notion that it's a black problem for black people alone to solve.

I don't believe it is discussed to the extent (if much at all) as it should be. White people can't solve it, the minute they start talking about it, it's racist.

I have no doubt there is still racism, but not to the extent the victim industry makes it out to be, we've come a long way baby. It's time for the community itself to stand up and be counted. We need more Bill Cosbys and Jason Rileys.