the EU catches Israel off-guard regarding its illegal settlements

jacee · February 8, 2014

Jacee I can only tell you the typical Israeli does not relish being hated in the world any differently than any other nationality. All they ask is to be treated with the same standard as the other nations it is in conflict with.

The status quo on the West Bank can not continue-it is a cancer eating away at both Israelis and Palestinians and the only people who benefit are the cancer cells, i.e., the extremists and in particular terrorist groups as well as those on the side lines whose contribution to the dialogue is to engage in rhetoric that demonizes either side.

Sometimes I think some of the forum contributors when discussing the conflict are nothing more than spectators cheering on pit bulls in an arena and trying to jab both dogs in the pit with sitcks to get them to fight.

It matters to me what people younger than me think. The fact that those of us ahead of you may have failed to achieve peace and respect between us does not mean you can not help achieve that by encouraging both sides to learn to live together.

Don't give up fighting for peace for BOTH sides to live in peace and harmony. Israelis do care. So do Palestinians. Neither wants to be hated.

I agree Rue. It's a fine line to respect both views, but a necessary one.

PIK · February 10, 2014

And it is time for people to start ragging on the arabs. What have they done for peace,nothing, do they want peace , sure does not look like it. Israel and the palistines want peace but the neighbours do not and it is time for the Israeli bashers to start looking at the facts for once. Great posts by rue and dop.

bleeding heart · February 10, 2014

If it were that simple, PIK, there'd be a lot less debate.

Anyway, your argument is with, for starters, Canada and the US, who sharply disagree with your assessment on an official level. A lot of Israelis disagree with it too.

GostHacked · February 13, 2014

And it is time for people to start ragging on the arabs. What have they done for peace,nothing, do they want peace , sure does not look like it. Israel and the palistines want peace but the neighbours do not and it is time for the Israeli bashers to start looking at the facts for once. Great posts by rue and dop.

The notion of a new Jewish state of Israel in Palestine predates WWI via the Zionist movement in Europe. So to me using the holocaust as an excuse or a major reason for the creation of Israel is a complete bullsh*t. This was just a nice reason to feel sorry for the Jews and let them have a state in a place that they KNEW was going to cause long term issues. Never let a crisis go to waste.

Europe on the whole seemed to be against the Jews. But for some reason Arabs need to hold blame for Israel's problems after being essentially driven out of Europe. Or were they driven out? When you take into account when the Zionist movement started.

DogOnPorch · February 13, 2014

The notion of a new Jewish state of Israel in Palestine predates WWI via the Zionist movement in Europe. So to me using the holocaust as an excuse or a major reason for the creation of Israel is a complete bullsh*t. This was just a nice reason to feel sorry for the Jews and let them have a state in a place that they KNEW was going to cause long term issues. Never let a crisis go to waste.

Europe on the whole seemed to be against the Jews. But for some reason Arabs need to hold blame for Israel's problems after being essentially driven out of Europe. Or were they driven out? When you take into account when the Zionist movement started.

You might want to watch this. Quite good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPIctGbAZEQ

Rue · February 14, 2014

Ghost you made the statement that the holocaust is being "used" as a major reason and excuse for Zionism and this is as you called it absolute b.s. since Zionism pre-dated the holocaust.

Let me address that comment. First of all the script for the allegation that the holocaust is "used" to justify Zionism was in fact drafted for a script to be used by the Ministry of Communications in Syria, by former Nazis who moved to Damascus after the War and wrote that script and it was then later recycled by the KGB and disseminated regularly throughout the Soviet bloc of Warsaw Pact nations by Stalin when he was unable to convince Israel to become a communist state under his influence.

At least when you restate such a script find out where it comes from and who drafted it.

Next point. Its completely nonsensical. The fact that the notion of Zionism was conceived prior to the holocaust does not mean the holocaust did not prove it to be true or that it was used. The accusation of "use" suggests of course that Jews manipulate their own deaths for political purposes and this accusation is nothing more than hateful and discriminatory against not just Jews but all holocaust survivors. To suggest they manipulated the holocaust to create a country is as low as it gets.

It takes victims of genocide and holds them not only culpable for their homicide but then suggests they are unethical for wanting to flee their genocide and survive. At the pith and substance of your argument is that a people who survive genocide are manipulators and dishonest for wanting to escape and live in a safe refuge where never again will they be wiped out.

You just trot that out with no thought. You just spew it out like the Arab media and white supremacist groups have since the end of the holocaust. You depict holocaust survivors as unfair manipulators.

Then you have the audacity to go further and suggest these people who fleed the holocaust or the 900,000 Jews expcelled from the Arab League countries are victimizers, not victims.

People thrown out of their countries, stripped of all their belongings, are victimizers in your revised world of history and why not right ghost because at the pith and substance of your argument is Jews can not be victims-they were never and can never be victims who prevailed and empowered themselves through universal sufferage-in your mind a Jew can not liberate himself or herself and be independent-that is impossible.

Thus it can\t possibly be the Jews who fled to Palestine or the Jews thrown out of Arab league nations were victims-only Arabs can be and the holocaust? Well in your revision of history you see no co-relation as to how the holocaust proved exactly what Zionism was created to try prevent-the genocide of Jews.

You show complete and utter ignorance of the history of Jews and not only an ignorance a sheer contempt. Jews suffered for over 3,000 years as second hand citizens persecuted and subject to massacres, house arrest, pogroms-in your world you don't want to hear that or how its inextricably linked to the people of Christianity who in the name of a Jewish King were taught to believe Jews were cursed people going to hell and would be damned until they converted and repented.The very pith and substance of your religion taught that Jews were demons to be spit at and killed but in your revisionism this never happened. Zionism just popped up out of nowhere right? These uppity Jews just had nothing better to do than stir trouble and victimize Arabs .

What a crock. Talk about absolute bs.

Zionism was not even a religious movement. It was a movement of socialists, union members who were Jews who realized as long as they lived as second class citizens in a Christian world they would never be free. So some said, let us be free again. No longer will be the modern day slaves and instead of a Pharoa,European monarchs.

Jews identified themselves as an oppressed people seeking expression of their identity through nationality precisely because Christians would not recognize us as equals. No more no less. The fact that this realization occurred before the holocaust does not mean the holocaust did not

relate to proving its credibility. What an illogical thing to state.

The Zionists warned that the slaughters would continue if the Jews did not find their own country and the holocaust proved that point. To say the holocaust is an excuse for Zionism is no different than saying women use rape as an excuse to suggest they are equal to the men who rape them and should not be raped. Brilliant logic Ghost. You again demonstrate how your bias against Jews and our desire to be equals just rubs your stomach raw. You just can't imagine a victim of rape saying no more.

Zionists and Jews who went to Palestine did not victimize anyone. They came with nothing. They took malaria infested swamps and inferior land no one wanted and reworked it. Blood and toil transformed desert into farm land. No they did not come and plunder Palestinians like your Christians did in North and South America. Don't try revise history to suggest Jews did to Arabs what your people did to aboriginals-that is absolute bull.

In fact when the Zionists went to Palestine they worked and lived with Palestinian Arabs. Palestinian Arabs sold land, but donated land as well. You know nothing of the Palestinian people and how they worked side by side Jews and moved to towns close to them. There was no war between Jews and Muslims until your Christian people decided to come and do what they have always done, divide and conquer.

Prince Faisal was a benevolent but remarkably naïve man.He had met with Weitzman the head of the Zionist movement many times. He had zero problem with Jews. He agreed to two states side by side. His vision was remarkably advanced.

Had his vision been allowed Israel today would have been pretty much like Liechenstein or Moncaco or Luxembourg or a small Switzerland. It would have been a non military nation where Jews could own land and live in freedom subject to their own laws but where Arabs could continue to travel through on their nomadic movements. Faisal was at heart a Beduin-a person who did not look at borders the way Europeans did but he could understand why Jews wanted to return to their homeland.

Go read your history and stop trying to revise it to depict Jews as victimizers and oppressors of Arabs. Take your anti-Semitic myths that Jews are victimizers and realize they are fiction based on hatred of Jews. White supremacist-Nazi myths recycled from old anti semitic tales of jews being manipulative blood suckers and now according to you of their own deaths.

It was Churchill who on direct orders of the British who conspired with the French and lied to the League of Nations to get a mandate where he pledged to create two states, one Jewish and one Arab while telling the Arabs he would never allow a Jewish state.

It was Churchill who flooded Palestine with non Palestinian Muslims in far more numbers than any Jews from Europe displacing these Palestinians but yes we know in your history, no Arab displaced another Arab, no Arab came to Palestine displacing Palestinian Arabs from their lands-only Jewish demons did that-demons who used the holocaust.

In your world Britain did not create a Jewish free state in Jordan in direct defiance of the League of Nations Mandate, and despite that state today still calling itself the Palestinian state-well no not to you.It just came out of nowhere and need not be questioned and we just skip over the fact it granted automatic citizenship to any Palestinian as long as they were not Jews.

We just skip the part of history where the French lied to Faisal to get the Pictot agreement-we just skip how the French deliberately lied to Faisal and made up a fabrication that Wietzman would change his mind and never recognize an Arab state causing Faisal to think Wietzman lied to him ripping up his agreement with the Jews.

Then of course, the day after, the very day after, the French arrested Faisal and expelled him seizing Syria and Lebanon as French colonies and then the British placated Faisal by placing his two sons on puppet thrones in Jordan and Iraq and then subsequently creating Saudi Arabia for Faisal\s remaining family.

That manipulation you ignore.

You also ignore how the very originators of the Palestinian nationalist movement were not even Palestinians-they were Egyptians, Iraqis and Syrians not Palestinians paid and fueled by the British and French to cause dissension to prevent a Jewish state. The actual Palestinian Arabs also displaced by non Palestinian Arabs allw ere the same. Everyone just hated Jews in your world because they were victimizers.

What revisionist bull.

Jewish victimizers. Yes the Jews of the Arab world referred to as khafir and dhimmi-forced to live in dhimmitude (apartheid) as third class infidel citizens with no rights.

That's right it was not Jews referred to as animals and placed in forced ghettoes, no no, in Ghosts' world the Jews of Arabia for no reason would want to go to Israel. No reason at all other than to victimize Arabs. When they fled with nothing on their backs, it was because they were victimizing the Arabs.

In Ghost's world the Arab League of Nations never violated and oppressed and used the Palestinian Arabs. Only Jews did. The Arab League never stated as it did to the world it would use Palestinians as pawns and cage them in open air prisons and use them as fodder to blackmail the world until it gave Israel back to it.

The Arab world never treated its Palestinians as inferiors.

In Ghosts' world the Arab League were victims.

The Arab League who referred to Palestinians as animals not worthy of anything but being caged were victims.

When Egypt, Syria, Iraqm embraced Hitler Nazism and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem lived in a stolen Jewish home in Berlin as a guest of Hitler throughout the second world war, it was Jews doing the victimization.

Whent he Grand Mufti worked to pressure Eichman to implement the gas camps and called on the Arab world to join the Nazis in wiping the jews off the planet, we just skip that-it has nothing to do with the history of today's conflict or how this Mufti was not even Palestinian and used Palestinians.

We will just skip the fact that Yasir Arafat was an Egyptian and running heroin and hash hish drug caravans across the Middle East and was chosen to head an anti Jewish movement because of his connections with Egypt and so many countries through his drug trades.

Never mind he would go on to steal billions from the people he claimed to lead and killed thousands of Palestinians you see because in G hist's world its all poof begone-only Jews did the victimizing.

GostHacked · February 14, 2014

You might want to watch this. Quite good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPIctGbAZEQ

I had seen it, and it is a good movie but I would not be using it as evidence or something to support a position. Does nothing to go against the notion that Zionism as a movement existed long before WWI and WWII. The holocaust was used as a political tool even though the immigration to the new Israel had already started with land buys.

Israel took about 40 years to be created from the start of the Zionist movement (I am guessing here). The Balfour declaration was part of that process, but was never officially endorsed by the UK.

So as much as people like to blame the Nazi's and Mufti for Israel's problems, Israel has created all it's problems on it's own in my view. Want to be a grown up country? Act like one.

GostHacked · February 14, 2014

Rue, long winded reply again. Care to back it up with some links? Your post was too long did not read and will contain most of the stuff already put out by Dog and others. Easy to get you two going in circles on this topic.

I'll tell you what I think, don't put words down claiming them to be my thoughts.

DogOnPorch · February 14, 2014

I had seen it, and it is a good movie but I would not be using it as evidence or something to support a position. Does nothing to go against the notion that Zionism as a movement existed long before WWI and WWII. The holocaust was used as a political tool even though the immigration to the new Israel had already started with land buys.

Israel took about 40 years to be created from the start of the Zionist movement (I am guessing here). The Balfour declaration was part of that process, but was never officially endorsed by the UK.

So as much as people like to blame the Nazi's and Mufti for Israel's problems, Israel has created all it's problems on it's own in my view. Want to be a grown up country? Act like one.

You're right, Israel should grow-up like Canada and simply annex everything from sea to shining sea and throw everybody who disagrees onto reservations. Meanwhile, the Arab-Israeli wars ARE traced to the Grand Mufti. Not some mysterious somebody else. As for the movie, it is taken from the minutes of the Wannsee Conference and lasts as long as the actual meeting. Eichmann and the Mufti were comrades in arms and friends on a social level.

Edited February 14, 2014 by DogOnPorch

GostHacked · February 14, 2014

You're right,

I know.

DogOnPorch · February 14, 2014

Rue, long winded reply again. Care to back it up with some links? Your post was too long did not read and will contain most of the stuff already put out by Dog and others. Easy to get you two going in circles on this topic.

I'll tell you what I think, don't put words down claiming them to be my thoughts.

I'm not Rue's keeper.

DogOnPorch · February 14, 2014

I know.

So you agree with me then. If Canada did it under far less contentious circumstances, who are YOU to tell Israel what it can do with land it sits on?

DogOnPorch · February 14, 2014

Rue: When the Grand Mufti worked to pressure Eichman (sic) to implement the gas camps and called on the Arab world to join the Nazis in wiping the jews off the planet, we just skip that-it has nothing to do with the history of today's conflict or how this Mufti was not even Palestinian and used Palestinians.

Haj Amin al-Husseini was born in Jerusalem.

GostHacked · February 14, 2014

So you agree with me then. If Canada did it under far less contentious circumstances, who are YOU to tell Israel what it can do with land it sits on?

No you agreed with me, you said do yourself. I am right. Have fun.

DogOnPorch · February 14, 2014

No you agreed with me, you said do yourself. I am right. Have fun.

You're right in that you know not very much about the Arab-Israeli conflict.

DogOnPorch · February 14, 2014

For example...this is completely alien to you. So much so, you will not admit it happened.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1913&dat=19410429&id=p6g0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=6GkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4104,2567380

GostHacked · February 14, 2014

You're right in that you know not very much about the Arab-Israeli conflict.

I am right as I seem to know more than you!

DogOnPorch · February 14, 2014

I am right as I seem to know more than you!

Hardly...you'd claim that Israel has settlers in Gaza without my correcting you. You don't even know who Nasser is w/o Google.

GostHacked · February 15, 2014

Hardly...you'd claim that Israel has settlers in Gaza without my correcting you. You don't even know who Nasser is w/o Google.

I am glad you are man enough to bring up my past mistakes, regardless of my admissions of errors or corrections in my statements.

Now if we can only get rid of the settlements in the West Bank. That would be like ... progress.

DogOnPorch · February 15, 2014

I am glad you are man enough to bring up my past mistakes, regardless of my admissions of errors or corrections in my statements.

Now if we can only get rid of the settlements in the West Bank. That would be like ... progress.

Meh...you asked for it.

Re: the West Bank...that you wish to engage in ethnic cleansing does not surprise me.

Rue · February 15, 2014

So the Mufti was born in Jerusalem. Yes. He never claimed to be Palestinian as it now is today. You would know that if you bothered to find out what he stood for and why he was a Nazi active in the extermination of Jews.. The word was only used by Arafat after he failed to kill King Hussein in the Black Sabbath uprising.The Mufti ridiculed the concept of calling someone Palestinian. He wanted a caliphate state consisting of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Israel btu never referred to himself as you do. Palestinian is a modern day invention. Go read his bloody speeches. He saw himself as a Muslim first, and pan-Arab second.

Once again you try revise history. You don't like the long winds huh. Don't read. You write what you do making accusations about Jews manipulating the holocaust and I will write what I want in their defence. Yah I know. In your world you say what you want and if you disagree with someone you simply throw out its a too long to avoid conceding what you stated was nonsensical. Got it.

Edited February 15, 2014 by Rue

DogOnPorch · February 15, 2014

So the Mufti was born in Jerusalem. Yes. He never claimed to be Palestinian as it now is today. You would know that if you bothered to find out what he stood for and why he was a Nazi active in the extermination of Jews.. The word was only used by Arafat after he failed to kill King Hussein in the Black Sabbath uprising.The Mufti ridiculed the concept of calling someone Palestinian. He wanted a caliphate state consisting of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Israel btu never referred to himself as you do. Palestinian is a modern day invention. Go read his bloody speeches. He saw himself as a Muslim first, and pan-Arab second.

Once again you try revise history. You don't like the long winds huh. Don't read. You write what you do making accusations about Jews manipulating the holocaust and I will write what I want in their defence. Yah I know. In your world you say what you want and if you disagree with someone you simply throw out its a too long to avoid conceding what you stated was nonsensical. Got it.

You're losing it, Rue. I was merely stating a fact. Arafat was born in Cairo. The Mufti in Jerusalem. Both were members of the al-Husseini clan. Both were at war with the Hashemites as well as the planet's Jews. Remember, the Mufti deep-sixed Jordan's King Abdullah I in 1951...aside from Black September in 1970 which was Arafat's attempt at taking over. If anything this supports the idea that the so-called Palestinian Cause knows no national borders...nor would it respect another country's borders.

As for your long winded replies...I never mentioned anything of the sort. Get a hold of yourself. That was another poster, all together.

Edited February 15, 2014 by DogOnPorch

jbg · February 16, 2014

You're losing it, Rue. I was merely stating a fact. Arafat was born in Cairo. The Mufti in Jerusalem. Both were members of the al-Husseini clan. Both were at war with the Hashemites as well as the planet's Jews. Remember, the Mufti deep-sixed Jordan's King Abdullah I in 1951...aside from Black September in 1970 which was Arafat's attempt at taking over. If anything this supports the idea that the so-called Palestinian Cause knows no national borders...nor would it respect another country's borders.

As for your long winded replies...I never mentioned anything of the sort. Get a hold of yourself. That was another poster, all together.

You're both right. Rue is making a valid point that the term "Palestinian" is largely invented. DOP is making the point that the Mufti and Arafat have Nazi roots. There is no contradiction.

DogOnPorch · February 16, 2014

You're both right. Rue is making a valid point that the term "Palestinian" is largely invented. DOP is making the point that the Mufti and Arafat have Nazi roots. There is no contradiction.

Re: Palestine. Sorry...incorrect. Here's an example.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1893&dat=19470915&id=lLAfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=N9cEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1802,5405767

Rue · February 16, 2014

Dog on Porch I apologize.I meant my post for Ghost not you. That is about the third time I have done that. Ooooooops. Sorry. I thought I was responding to Ghost. Lol you already know I am long winded. Hah. Yah that was the point, precisely what you indicated. Its interesting over the years how this Mufti who did not ever want to be identified by the word Palestinian is often depicted that way or how Arafat for that matter who only coined the phrase after the Black Sabbath uprising is referred to as Palestinian. This man made it clear right to his death bed his concept of a state was all of Egypt, Jordan, the West Bank a and if anyone ever bothered to write what he stated he would see references to all of Syria and Lebanon as well which is why no Arab League nation wanted anything to do with him and the Syrians especially. The Syrians, Jordanians and Lebanese as well as Egyptians and Iraqis loathed the Palestinians but that is just skipped right over in this bs revisionism as if the Arab League cared about them. As for Saudi Arabia the fact that for years it offered not one penny to Palestinian refugees speaks for itself. It was only after American pressuring it relented after years of neglect.

None of these nations but Jordan offered citizenship and when Jordan stated it was the Palestinian state and offered return to all Palestinians and automatic citizenship its pay back was Arafat trying to kill Hussein and this pretend fiction that the Arab League got more than what it asked for, an entire Jew Free State with 85% of Palestine but that still is not good enough to this day.

Let's cut to the chase. The need to demonize Israel and Jews for surviving and refusing to live as second class citizens in dhimmitude as khafirs or surviving the holociaust is deep in denial by Ghost who can not fathom Jews as having survived anything-we are just Vikings who cameto slaughter and pillage.Never mind it was the Christian and Muslim societies that did that as well as the Pagans and Jews long since evolved past that and never forcefully converted anyone-let's just re-write history to cast Jews as evil oppressors. Right we are involved in ethnic cleansing and this is why the Beduin Arabs of Israel paid such generous benefits from the government their birth-rate is the highest in the world and of course we have set up gas camps to exterminate the Palestinians because you've read it here on this forum, we are Nazis the way we treat Palestinians.

Dog on the Porch, lol, I am being long winded again. Sorry I wrote you. It was Ghost I was blowing at. Third apology to you for doing that, Good Lord I must stop that.