Maher Arar, & the families in Lac Megantic

[Icebound]

WWWTT, when you use the term "government", who do you mean exactly? Because after all.,there is no such thing as "government" or "the State" or even "society" - there is only individuals. Like it or not, we live and die alone - as individuals.

Of course we can co-operate while alive - but as individuals.

You might want to check out some history. People recognized thousands of years ago, that if you tried to "live and die alone", you were amongst the first to be enslaved.

So they gave up some of their individual freedoms in order to become part of something greater... a manor, a city-state, a "nation". You cannot operate these entities by "individuals", because individuals fight amongst themselves and destroy the entity from within. So you have to govern it as a collective, with assigned tasks... somebody protects the internal peace, somebody protects the perimeter, somebody grows the food, somebody directs policy so that food-production and transport (and other activities) proceed in an orderly and timely manner...

So what do you get for agreeing to give up some freedoms? In a "democracy", you get a chance to BE one of those leaders. At the very least you get a say as to who BECOMES those leaders.

In other words, friend.... "government" is you. And if your minions do good, your state is prosperous. And if they screw up....well, since you put them there, they are your responsibility, and you get to pay.

If you don't like the minions which you put there, use better judgement in choosing them next time.

...

Edited July 19, 2013 by Icebound

[WWWTT]

You have made it obvious you dont know. If you did, it would consist of more than shrieks of Harpers fault !

If this accident hasnt happened before, why are you so up in arms to blame Harper?

Not one single person , er rational person, has put up the no fault banner. Some irrational people have said its Harpers fault without any clue as to the whys and hows of this accident.

No its just your childish rants to blame Harper without having the slightest clue what went wrong.

Ya actually I think you feel lonely being the only one that has no clue as to what is going on.

When someone criticizes your idol Harper,the fingers go straight in the ears and you start shaking your head repeating over and over "you don't know what you're talking about" and "you just want to blame Harper" or "think about the poor people,this is not about politics"

WWWTT

[Charles Anthony]

Folks,

Stop the personal attacks.

Ch. A.

[g_bambino]

Indirectly, Bambino, you admit the truth. It's not the Crown's money - it's the money of citizens like me.

You mean unlike where I directly "admitted" the truth here?

IMV, to further his political career, Harper used my money, to pay off Arar who walked away with $10 million.

And if I understand you properly, Bambino, Harper should have negotiated a better deal.

That's your view, yes.

I already said: Harper is responsible for those events; if your view of Harper's actions upsets you so much, take it up with your MP, file access to information requests, start a movement, don't vote Conservative next election, whatever.

A better deal is what it seems you think Harper should have negotiated.

[ed.: +]

Edited July 19, 2013 by g_bambino

[GostHacked]

Michael Hardner, on 17 Jul 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

So we should expect that the government spies on us, that money is wasted, that people die in the healthcare system with no investigation on how to prevent future deaths ?

I don't buy it, sorry.

You ARE buying it however in the form of taxes. Some of the recommendations being proposed now are the same things that were proposed when the last train disaster happened.

However I never blamed the federal or provincial solely for it. The train operator bears responsibility as does the company that owns/runs the trains. If a company can save money by not going above and beyond the regulations they will and very often do.

Also the response from the company running the trains, they are cutting their staff in the province by 25%.

Lack of regulation/oversight.

Negligence by the train operator/owner.

More oversight means it's going to cost you more now than it would have years ago when these recommendations were made.

[GostHacked]

WWWTT, when you use the term "government", who do you mean exactly?

Quebec provincial and Canadian Federal governments. Specifically departments responsible for transport safety on both levels.

[Michael Hardner]

You ARE buying it however in the form of taxes.

That's just rhetoric. And we're getting sidetracked.

We're talking about fatalism and - to my mind - the implied complacency. If you really felt that way you wouldn't be posting about Snowden either.

[August1991]

The buildings on Parliament Hill, and others around the country are filled with people who are the govt and you know it but like to play some game and be all starry eyed and oh wow man.

Give it up.

Well, who are those people and what exactly motivates them?

In other words, friend.... "government" is you. And if your minions do good, your state is prosperous. And if they screw up....well, since you put them there, they are your responsibility, and you get to pay.

If you don't like the minions which you put there, use better judgement in choosing them next time.

That is simplistic beyond words: the "government is me". To me, government - like any organization - has many people, individuals. Or as you put it Icebound: "minions".

GostHacked has maybe a better presentation of this: ultimately an individual will have to write a cheque, or pay a tax. It is individuals who live and breathe in any society.

You mean unlike where I directly "admitted" the truth here?

Fair enough, and I noted your admission. But my use of the word indirectly referred rather to the point of the OP. Edited July 19, 2013 by August1991

[g_bambino]

[M]y use of the word indirectly referred rather to the point of the OP.

Which is what? Politicians make decisions you don't like?

[August1991]

Which is what? Politicians make decisions you don't like?

Sometimes politicians take decisions/say things that I agree with. And sometimes, they don't.

To return to the point of the OP, IMV, politicians spend other people's money to solve their problems.

Imagine, bambino, if you could solve your problems with other people's money.

And then imagine, what kind of people would seek such kind of power.

Bambino, is it any wonder that you're a monarchist.

[Icebound]

Sometimes politicians take decisions/say things that I agree with. And sometimes, they don't.

To return to the point of the OP, IMV, politicians spend other people's money to solve their problems.

That is the whole point.... your view ... how to put this politely... is myopic.

The "government" is there at YOUR behest. YOU installed then, you gave them power to look after your interests. Politician are simply the caretakers of your money. They spend it to solve YOUR problems.

If you don't like how they are doing it, you have to a) let them know, ... come up with better ideas, ... c) install someone else, even yourself.

Because there are more than 30 million of us, some of us are bound to be disappointed. That is just tough... But it doesn't alter the fact that government is YOU... And the minute that YOU decide that you are not part of the government, the whole concept of democracy breaks down.

[August1991]

The "government" is there at YOUR behest.

MY behest?

Icebound, uh, are you a Leftist American?

Edited July 19, 2013 by August1991

[Icebound]

MY behest?

Icebound, uh, are you a Leftist American?

LOL

I am a pragmatic Canadian. You know..... science, statistics, facts.... I want to be able to own a gun, but live in a society where I don't need one.

and yes... governments are installed at YOUR behest. You (and all of the rest of us) install governments and remove them. We OWN the government and are responsible for its successes and its failures.

Oh.... and that government should be acting in the interests of ALL the population, not just some select subsets...,

You know: of the people, for the people, BY the people.... that would be you.

It is our job to pick the best possible people for the job. If we fail to do so, we get what we deserve.

...

Edited July 19, 2013 by Icebound

[g_bambino]

To return to the point of the OP, IMV, politicians spend other people's money to solve their problems.

And pay the price if they do so in a way that the majority of the electorate finds unacceptable.

The question here, though, is what do you think the problem was that Arar posed to Harper? I've said a number of times Arar posed a problem in that he could've sued the Crown and won millions more in damages as well as his case incurring further millions for lawyers, clerks, the court's time, etc., etc. But, you don't seem to want to even consider that Harper authorised 10 million be paid to Arar in order to save tax money. Can you not see that as being a very real possibility?