Law and Order in America

kimmy · July 6, 2013

What an inane turn this thread took.

In Henderson Nevada, police are being sued for arresting a family so that they could use their homes to stake out a neighbor.

Police contacted a resident and informed him that they wanted to use the home in a stake-out. When he refused, they went to his home, smashed the door down with a battering ram, pointed guns at him, and shot him and his dog repeatedly with "pepper balls" while hurling obscenities at him.

They also lured his parents out of their home (which is on the same street) so that they could use their home as well. They were arrested when they attempted to return to their home.

This case has sparked some additional interest because aside from the stuff you'd expect, the plaintiffs are also claiming that their Third Amendment rights have been violated. That amendment says that the government can't use your home as a quarters for soldiers without your consent, except by legal process during time of war. It's apparently almost unheard of that this amendment is actually applied, for obvious reasons. While the police officers are not soldiers, I think the larger principle is that the government can't simply demand to use your home at their convenience.

I hope the family wins; the police clearly have the impression that they're entitled to do whatever they like in pursuit of "bad guys" and that if you're not with them you're the enemy too.

-k

GostHacked · July 6, 2013

What an inane turn this thread took.

Usual suspects taking part it's a pattern.

And for your article I was reading something like that the other day. Crazy stuff.

bush_cheney2004 · July 6, 2013

I hope the family wins; the police clearly have the impression that they're entitled to do whatever they like in pursuit of "bad guys" and that if you're not with them you're the enemy too.

The case will likely be settled for a handsome sum to be paid by the city.....this happens more often than you might think. As for the Third Amendment drama, good luck with that. Cops are not "soldiers".

The legal action alleges assault, battery, false arrest and imprisonment, intentional infliction of emotional distress, negligent infliction of emotional distress, conspiracy, defamation, abuse, malicious prosecution, and negligence, and it claims the plaintiffs are due compensation for each offense.

cybercoma · July 6, 2013

Usual suspects taking part it's a pattern.

...with impunity of course. But it's posters like Argus that are the problem. :rolleyes:

Edited July 6, 2013 by cybercoma

dre · July 6, 2013

...with impunity of course. But it's posters like Argus that are the problem.

Go figure!

July 6, 2013

Usual suspects taking part it's a pattern.

Says the member whose post I was directly responding to.

...with impunity of course. But it's posters like Argus that are the problem.

Says the member who brought up Germany.

waldo · July 6, 2013

And I gave you a link to the U.S. Census Bureau identifying Mexicans and Hispanics separately.

your latest dodge was a link to an article that claimed data associated with the U.S. Census Bureau... more pointedly, it's decades old data and clearly you didn't even bother to look at the numbers as it certainly doesn't correlate to your original link or have numbers that support your claim.

you're dodging my question asked in relation to your first link - the one that claims a greater number for German ancestry... I asked you for the Hispanic number associated with that article. Why the dodge? Is there a problem?

my earlier screen shot was a summary accounting (from the U.S. Census Bureau, 2010 census) for the Hispanic population makeup. As follows is the full detailed breakout of that summation showing a number of 50,477,594 for the Hispanic population of the U.S.. As before, your initial source is a failed source... your claim (and that of the other guy who claims to be an American), that Americans with German ancestry is the largest population category within the U.S. is, again, busted!

Scotty · July 7, 2013

The case will likely be settled for a handsome sum to be paid by the city.....this happens more often than you might think. As for the Third Amendment drama, good luck with that. Cops are not "soldiers".

The legal action alleges assault, battery, false arrest and imprisonment, intentional infliction of emotional distress, negligent infliction of emotional distress, conspiracy, defamation, abuse, malicious prosecution, and negligence, and it claims the plaintiffs are due compensation for each offense.

Really? What's the difference? Especially today, when police have tanks, wear military gear, have military weapons and perform all the functions of a military unit? There weren't even many 'police' back then. So I don't think those who wrote that little item would, upon looking at today's police, make much of a distinction between them and soldiers.

Tell me these guys don't look and act like soldiers.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article34671.htm

July 7, 2013

I'm still waiting for a link regarding the guy in Brooklyn who was shot by police 90 times. Cybercoma?

July 7, 2013

Really? What's the difference? Especially today, when police have tanks, wear military gear, have military weapons and perform all the functions of a military unit? There weren't even many 'police' back then. So I don't think those who wrote that little item would, upon looking at today's police, make much of a distinction between them and soldiers.

Tell me these guys don't look and act like soldiers.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article34671.htm

Posse Comitatus..........

This is hardly a “new alarming trend”, from “Coppers” using Tommy guns in the 1930s…The RUC adopting early armoured cars in the 1920s….US Marshalls & Sheriffs (and the RCMP) using Winchester repeaters in the 1800s…….The Bow Street Runners armed with flintlock to fend off highwayman in the 1700s …..And all the way back to Cohortes Urbanae protecting the streets of Ancient Rome armed with the same Gladius used by the Legions …………..

All that has happened is the technology has changed….

bush_cheney2004 · July 7, 2013

....All that has happened is the technology has changed….

Yep....why would law enforcement not evolve weapons and tactics? The criminal perps sure don't seem to be standing still.

The_Squid · July 8, 2013

Police contacted a resident and informed him that they wanted to use the home in a stake-out. When he refused, they went to his home, smashed the door down with a battering ram....

Just curious... Do the Americans on this forum think that this should be allowed to occur?

July 8, 2013

Just curious... Do the Americans on this forum think that this should be allowed to occur?

This American would need a lot more information than you provided in that one unsourced statement before being able to answer the question.

The_Squid · July 8, 2013

This American would need a lot more information than you provided in that one unsourced statement before being able to answer the question.

You sure do like to avoid ever answering any sort of direct question eh...?

In general, should law enforcement be allowed to kick people out of their homes, and arrest them if they don't comply, to use it as a stakeout? No emergency in the house itself... no danger to anyone inside the house... the police just want to use it because it would be a great vantage point.

July 8, 2013

You sure do like to avoid ever answering any sort of direct question eh...?

In general, should law enforcement be allowed to kick people out of their homes, and arrest them if they don't comply, to use it as a stakeout? No emergency in the house itself... no danger to anyone inside the house... the police just want to use it because it would be a great vantage point.

I'm avoiding answering the question because I want more information?? Good grief. I've no source for the claim, I don't know if the claim as you presented it actually happened or not, or how it happened, and I'm supposed to form an uneducated opinion??

That's rich. Being criticized for wanting more information, for wanting to be able to check out the facts before forming an opinion. :rolleyes:

bush_cheney2004 · July 8, 2013

Still not enough information....law enforcement can legally confiscate a motor vehicle (private property) from a citizen under current law. Police bash in the wrong door on the wrong house quite frequently. In this case, assuming the facts are as presented, the city of Henderson, Nevada will be paying a settlement to the plaintiffs.

Scotty · July 9, 2013

Yep....why would law enforcement not evolve weapons and tactics? The criminal perps sure don't seem to be standing still.

Could you illustrate the advancement in 'perps' since bugsy malone? As far as I can see they tend to be less well-armed than they used to be. Certainly the police rarely come across groups of them with fully automatic weapons such as the mob used to use in the thirties. I don't think most of today's criminals are even as advanced as they were back then. The mob is a shadow of itself, and its members no longer zip their lips but blab freely for deals, and the street gangs are just vicious scruff. I'm not saying the police shouldn't have stronger weapons available, but only, as in some of the cites I've posted, seem to be relying on it much more often, for routine jobs, and seem to be taking up the mentality, to some degree, of an army of occupation which doesn't trust anyone as opposed to the old beat cops.

bush_cheney2004 · July 9, 2013

Could you illustrate the advancement in 'perps' since bugsy malone?

Sure...the very famous example is a bank robbery shootout in North Hollywood, California back in 1997, wherein law enforcement (police and county sheriffs) found themselves outgunned by armored perps. The cops finally resorted to getting more firepower from a local gun shop and SWAT.

Local patrol officers at the time were typically armed with their standard issue 9 mm or .38 Special pistols, with some having a 12-gauge shotgun available in their cars. Phillips and Mătăsăreanu carried illegally modified fully automatic AKMs and an HK-91 rifle with high capacity drum magazines and ammunition capable of penetrating vehicles and police Kevlar vests. The bank robbers wore full suits of body armor which successfully deflected bullets and shells fired by the responding patrolmen. SWAT eventually arrived bearing sufficient firepower, and they commandeered an armored truck to evacuate the wounded. Several officers also appropriated AR-15 rifles from a nearby firearms dealer. The incident sparked debate on the need for patrol officers to upgrade their capabilities in similar situations in the future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

Edited July 9, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

GostHacked · July 9, 2013

So here is 'more information' about the post kimmy had made.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/08/family-booted-from-home-for-police-detail-suing-with-rare-use-third-amendment/

A Nevada family is using a rare legal argument in a lawsuit claiming police tried to commandeer their homes for a surveillance operation and then arrested the homeowners for resisting -- invoking the Third Amendment, which bars soldiers from being "quartered" in a residence without permission.

The Mitchell family, in a lawsuit filed July 1, detailed the incident from July 10, 2011. According to the complaint, it all began when the Henderson city police called Anthony Mitchell that morning to say they needed his house to gain “tactical advantage” in a domestic violence investigation in the neighborhood.

The situation turned ugly when Mitchell refused repeated requests to leave and police smashed through the door, the 18-page complaint states.

Mitchell alleges the police, upon entering his home, forced him to the floor at gunpoint, then shot him and his “cowering” dog with a few rounds of pepper-spray pellets. Police then allegedly handcuffed and arrested Mitchell in connection with “obstructing a police officer” before occupying his home.

No warrant, no state of emergency, these people need to be supported all the way.