Law and Order in America

[carepov]

Crime rates are down.

Yes both in Canada and the US.

Deaths of police officers are way down.

Perhaps in Canada but not in the US.

But police are killing more people.

Yes in the US, but is this true in Canada? I cannot find any data.

Not because they have more to fear.

Not because they have more to do.

Why?

In the US, perhaps it is related to more guns on the street? Maybe the same is happening in Canada?

[Guest American Woman]

Deaths of police officers are way down.

Not true. In 2011 police fatalities rose 13%.

But police are killing more people.

Stats, please.

[roy baty]

The examples posted in here are obviously unacceptable but still represent the minority of law enforcement officers. There are and always were cops that abused power. Thanks to the likes of mobile phone cameras we get to see more of it. What gets me is you'd think these cops would be a bit wiser nowadays with every Tom, Dick and Harry carrying a video camera.. Dummies..

[Guest American Woman]

The examples posted in here are obviously unacceptable but still represent the minority of law enforcement officers. There are and always were cops that abused power. Thanks to the likes of mobile phone cameras we get to see more of it. What gets me is you'd think these cops would be a bit wiser nowadays with every Tom, Dick and Harry carrying a video camera.. Dummies..

Of course the examples are unacceptable, but as I've pointed out too, with over half a million law enforcement officers dealing with how many incidents a day throughout the year over many years, these examples amount to but a drop in the bucket. With the likes of mobile phone cameras, as you say, you'd think we'd be deluged with examples if it were representative of "law enforcement in America." By far the majority of law enforcement officers are well trained professionals, serving and protecting; and "bad apples" are not unique to the U.S.

[Guest Derek L]

Before tasters I guess cops used smellers... Seriously, I think that before tasers the cops just used guns.

Back in the “good old days” before tasers, the police relied more heavily on these:

[jacee]

Yes both in Canada and the US.

Perhaps in Canada but not in the US.

Yes in the US, but is this true in Canada? I cannot find any data.

In the US, perhaps it is related to more guns on the street? Maybe the same is happening in Canada?

I was using your data.

The number of officer deaths has decreased throughout the 20th century and is still lower, despite increased population and number of officers.

[Guest American Woman]

The number of officer deaths has decreased throughout the 20th century and is still lower, despite increased population and number of officers.

No, the number of officer deaths has not decreased throughout the 20th - and 21st - centuries; and I'm still waiting for those stats I asked you for. Thanks!

[cybercoma]

No, the number of officer deaths has not decreased throughout the 20th - and 21st - centuries; and I'm still waiting for those stats I asked you for. Thanks!

Here you go.

http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.html

[Guest American Woman]

Here you go.

http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.html

Same as what I found, your site doesn't prove her claim at all.

[cybercoma]

Who said I was trying to?

But for that matter, It doesn't prove your claim either. What it shows it that officer deaths fluctuate through the years. The highest decades of officer deaths were in the 20s-30s and again in the 70s. So if you take 1970 as your cutoff date, then officer deaths have been falling since then. They were lowest in the 20th century during '43 and '44, likely due to the war. From 1920-1932 they were quite high, which was of course due to prohibition. It seems 1900-1910 was the decade with the fewest police deaths in the 20th and 21st century. So jacee's comments aren't entirely wrong. They're just relatively misleading. Officer deaths are reduced from what they were throughout the 1970s, which was nearly half a century ago and they continue to fall. These are not per capita deaths either. The population of the US and the number of officers has increased substantially over this time. If you take a look at per capita figures, the 1920s and early 30s make it looks like there was a murderous rampage against cops. Meanwhile, per capita numbers really do make the number of officer deaths today the lowest they've been since 1900.

[Guest American Woman]

Who said I was trying to?

Not me.

But for that matter, It doesn't prove your claim either.

It sure does prove my claim, as my claim is that her claim is false.

What it shows it that officer deaths fluctuate through the years.

Yep. Which isn't what she said.

The highest decades of officer deaths were in the 20s-30s and again in the 70s. So if you take 1970 as your cutoff date, then officer deaths have been falling since then.

And they fell between the 20's-30's and the 70's, too, only to rise again - as they have fluctuated through the years in between and since then. The reality is that her claim is false.

At any rate, those aren't the stats that I had asked for. I already knew her claim about the numbers regarding the death of police officers wasn't correct, which is why I said it wasn't true.

These are not per capita deaths either.

Her claim wasn't in regards to per capita, either.

Edited August 7, 2013 by American Woman

[carepov]

I was using your data.

The number of officer deaths has decreased throughout the 20th century and is still lower, despite increased population and number of officers.

OK so we are talking US. Yes officer deaths do seem to be declining - but I would not say they are way down. Perhaps they are down because the police is getting better at taking out potential cop killers?

Like I said earlier perhaps the number of people shot by police in the US is up due to more guns on the street? Anyways I only found data from 2003 to 2009, I wonder how many people were killed by police "back in the good ole days when cops walked the beat and served their community"?

[jacee]

OK so we are talking US. Yes officer deaths do seem to be declining - but I would not say they are way down. Perhaps they are down because the police is getting better at taking out potential cop killers?

Like I said earlier perhaps the number of people shot by police in the US is up due to more guns on the street? Anyways I only found data from 2003 to 2009, I wonder how many people were killed by police "back in the good ole days when cops walked the beat and served their community"?

The police deaths data was interesting, back to 1791 !

You mean the "good ole days" of the 1930's ... depression/prohibition ... when police deaths were the highest?

(except for 9/11)

It's truly amazing though, that police deaths haven't increased with increasing numbers of officers, but have even declined.

[cybercoma]

Not me.

It sure does prove my claim, as my claim is that her claim is false.

Yep. Which isn't what she said.

And they fell between the 20's-30's and the 70's, too, only to rise again - as they have fluctuated through the years in between and since then. The reality is that her claim is false.

At any rate, those aren't the stats that I had asked for. I already knew her claim about the numbers regarding the death of police officers wasn't correct, which is why I said it wasn't true.

Her claim wasn't in regards to per capita, either.

What the stats show is that despite a much larger population and many more police officers, the absolute number of officer deaths has declined over the last 43 years. So her claim that officer deaths have decreased over the 20th and 21st centuries is misleading, but true.

[carepov]

You mean the "good ole days" of the 1930's ... depression/prohibition ... when police deaths were the highest?

(except for 9/11)

No, sorry, I sarcastically meant the "good ole days" that cybercoma referred to earlier. These days US police kill 370-500 people/year, I wonder how many people were shot by police in the 50's, 60's... 90's? It would be even more interesting to have the numbers of "justified" and "unjustified" killings.

It's truly amazing though, that police deaths haven't increased with increasing numbers of officers, but have even declined.

No, I do not think that this is amazing at all, considering:

1. Crime rates are down

2. Practically all workplaces are safer in the US. Look at death and injury rates for taxi drivers, miners, factory/construction workers, etc.. all down significantly. I would bet that prison guard deaths/serious injuries have been dropping too despite an explosion in prison population.

[kimmy]

Judge sentenced to jail for accepting kickbacks in exchange for sentencing young people to excessive sentences at private corrections facilities. In one case a girl receive a 3 months jail sentence for creating a MySpace page mocking her school principal.

4000 convictions have been overturned as a result of this judge.

http://rollingout.com/criminal-behavior/judge-must-serve-28-years-after-making-2-million-for-sending-children-to-jail/

Kind of illustrates one danger of for-profit prisons, as cybercoma mentioned earlier.

-k

[carepov]

Wow. How could the USA allow such a disfuctional justice system to continue for so long?!

[GostHacked]

4000 convictions have been overturned as a result of this judge.

Kind of illustrates one danger of for-profit prisons, as cybercoma mentioned earlier.

-k

The few bad apples seem to be in many places. That is scary for anyone being prosecuted by the judicial system, get a crooked judge and your life is f*cked.

For profit prisons, quotas to fill the prisons so the private company can keep operating and justify their existence. If a company is private, what is the first thing they are after?? That's right , money.

[GostHacked]

Here is a nice example of police invading a home without a search warrant.

[jacee]

Wow. How could the USA allow such a disfuctional justice system to continue for so long?!

I like the part where he got sentenced to 28 years.

[Bonam]

I like the part where he got sentenced to 28 years.

Hardly enough, he should have gotten 4000 consecutive life sentences, one for each person he falsely imprisoned. A corrupt judge that sends others to prison for money is the most abominable of criminals.

[cybercoma]

Hardly enough, he should have gotten 4000 consecutive life sentences, one for each person he falsely imprisoned. A corrupt judge that sends others to prison for money is the most abominable of criminals.

He should have been treated as though he abducted and tortured those children for however many months he locked them away with real criminals.

[kimmy]

Hardly enough, he should have gotten 4000 consecutive life sentences, one for each person he falsely imprisoned. A corrupt judge that sends others to prison for money is the most abominable of criminals.

To be fair, the article doesn't say that 4000 people were falsely imprisoned, just that their convictions were thrown out. Presumably because everything this judge touched is tainted and could be easily challenged.

In fact, it turns out this is oldish news-- Judge Ciavarella and Judge Conahan were originally convicted in 2011. This was in the news because Judge Ciavarella's latest attempt at appeal has failed.

More details are here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

Particularly damning, Judge Conahan used his budgetary authority to close down a state-run detention center and direct state funds to the construction of the private facility that later gave kickbacks to Conahan and Ciavarella:

http://pysih.com/2009/02/24/judge-mark-ciavarella-and-judge-michael-conahan/

He should have been treated as though he abducted and tortured those children for however many months he locked them away with real criminals.

If he'd taken pictures of these teenagers he'd be going to jail for 28,000 years. But since he just took away their liberty, he just gets 28.

But clearly, he's a child predator. His motivation was money rather than sexual gratification, but he indisputably preyed on children.

-k

[Bonam]

If he'd taken pictures of these teenagers he'd be going to jail for 28,000 years. But since he just took away their liberty, he just gets 28.

Another example of what I talked about earlier, how puritanical morality perverts justice and culture in Western societies.

[Guest American Woman]

What the stats show is that despite a much larger population and many more police officers, the absolute number of officer deaths has declined over the last 43 years. So her claim that officer deaths have decreased over the 20th and 21st centuries is misleading, but true.

Her claim, as she made it, is flat out false. I'm also still waiting for stats regarding her claim about the number of people killed by police. I have the feeling I'm going to be waiting a long time. Edited August 8, 2013 by American Woman