Edward Snowden

[ReeferMadness]

Whether or not he'd go to prison is an unknown at this time, and I do believe he could have increased the likelihood of that happening by running off, but he is jeopardizing some serious issues with his refusal to surrender himself. That much is known.

What is known is that the NSA is manipulating the US's position as a major internet hub to spy on the citizens of the world. And the reason that we know that is that Edward Snowden told us. And now he's being persecuted by the same people who are reading my emails.

Edward Snowden should be free. It's the people chasing him who belong in jail.

[Guest American Woman]

Bradley Manning would no doubt see things differently. As does Daniel Ellsberg.

I don't think you should be speaking for them under the circumstances; however, as I've said repeatedly, Binney said that Snowden was transitioning from whistleblower to a traitor. Now why should Manning and/or Ellsberg's opinion carry more weight than his? And I'm repeating, yet again, that Binney, a NSA whistleblower, is not in prison.

[dre]

I don't think you should be speaking for them under the circumstances; however, as I've said repeatedly, Binney said that Snowden was transitioning from whistleblower to a traitor. Now why should Manning and/or Ellsberg's opinion carry more weight than his? And I'm repeating, yet again, that Binney, a NSA whistleblower, is not in prison.

First of all... The reason Binney didnt go to prison is because he never successfully blew on ANYTHING. He wasted time with your precious legal route and got nowhere.

Q: Did Edward Snowden do the right thing in going public?

William Binney: We tried to stay for the better part of seven years inside the government trying to get the government to recognize the unconstitutional, illegal activity that they were doing and openly admit that and devise certain ways that would be constitutionally and legally acceptable to achieve the ends they were really after. And that just failed totally because no one in Congress or — we couldn't get anybody in the courts, and certainly the Department of Justice and inspector general's office didn't pay any attention to it. And all of the efforts we made just produced no change whatsoever. All it did was continue to get worse and expand.

As for your constant claims about Binney talking about Snowden being a traitor? Those are based on the belief that he gave classified information to China or Russia. Problem is thats complete unsubstantiated.

What does Mr Binney really think?

Q: So Snowden did the right thing?

Binney: Yes, I think he did.

So there you have it! Your own source completely destroying your continued silly assertions about the "legal route", and saying Snowden not only did the right thing to go public, but also to flee.

Now why should Manning and/or Ellsberg's opinion carry more weight than his? And I'm repeating, yet again, that Binney, a NSA whistleblower, is not in prison.

They shouldnt. Ellsberg, and Binneys opinions carry the same weight, and they BOTH say Snowden was right to go public, and right to flee. And again... Binney never went to prison simply because his attempts to blow the whistle were unsuccessful because he wasted time trying to report the snooping to the government... the ones DOING the snooping.

As for Mannings opinion on Snowden? We dont know what that is because HES IN PRISON AND WILL DIE THERE.

Edited August 11, 2013 by dre

[ReeferMadness]

I don't think you should be speaking for them under the circumstances; however, as I've said repeatedly, Binney said that Snowden was transitioning from whistleblower to a traitor. Now why should Manning and/or Ellsberg's opinion carry more weight than his? And I'm repeating, yet again, that Binney, a NSA whistleblower, is not in prison.

Why don't we hear Binney in his own words instead of yours?

Fast forward to the end of the segment. Binney says that Snowden should be prosecuted but only after the administrations (up to and including the President and Vice President), the heads of NSA and so on.

[dre]

Q: You three wouldn't criticize him for going public from the start?

J. Kirk Wiebe: Correct.

Binney: In fact, I think he saw and read about what our experience was, and that was part of his decision-making.

Wiebe: We failed, yes.

Jesselyn Radack: Not only did they go through multiple and all the proper internal channels and they failed, but more than that, it was turned against them. ... The inspector general was the one who gave their names to the Justice Department for criminal prosecution under the Espionage Act. And they were all targets of a federal criminal investigation, and Tom ended up being prosecuted — and it was for blowing the whistle.

Theres your beloved "legal route" in action. They went to the inspector General like they are supposed to under the law. He turned their names over to the justice department who went after them under the espionage act.

[Guest American Woman]

Why don't we hear Binney in his own words instead of yours?

I quoted Binney's words. They are his words, not mine.

"So he is transitioning from whistle-blower to a traitor."

Again. HIS words, not mine, from the source you also linked to.

[dre]

I quoted Binney's words. They are his words, not mine.

"So he is transitioning from whistle-blower to a traitor."

Again. HIS words, not mine, from the source you also linked to.

Youre willfully ignoring the rest of his words, and ignoring the context.

Q: Did Edward Snowden do the right thing in going public?

William Binney: We tried to stay for the better part of seven years inside the government trying to get the government to recognize the unconstitutional, illegal activity that they were doing and openly admit that and devise certain ways that would be constitutionally and legally acceptable to achieve the ends they were really after. And that just failed totally because no one in Congress or — we couldn't get anybody in the courts, and certainly the Department of Justice and inspector general's office didn't pay any attention to it. And all of the efforts we made just produced no change whatsoever. All it did was continue to get worse and expand.

That... is what Mr Binney said. You are cherry picking quotes, and ignoring the fact that Mr Binney not only THOROUGHLY descredited the ridiculous assertion that Snowden should have gone the "legal route" but that he was right to go public and to flee. And you are trying to use as a source, a person that has refuted every single point you have tried to make.

[jacee]

... jeopardizing some serious issues with his refusal to surrender himself ...

... "man up and surrender himself" as he can see the problems he's creating ...

American Woman, can you be more specific about these "problems" and "issues" that should be encouraging him to turn himself in (and likely spend his life in jail)?

I don't get your reasoning.

Why would he want to turn himself in?

[ReeferMadness]

I quoted Binney's words. They are his words, not mine.

"So he is transitioning from whistle-blower to a traitor."

Again. HIS words, not mine, from the source you also linked to.

Well, you are transitioning from honest debate to something less than that. Not only are you cherry-picking Binney's words, you're using them out of context. When Binney said that Snowden is transitioning to a traitor, it had nothing to do with Snowden's refusal to surrender himself to his persecutors. Binney felt that Snowden was crossing a line when he started talking about the US hacking into China. Binney was quite happy to have Snowden talk about the NSA illegally spying on US citizens.

[Guest American Woman]

Well, you are transitioning from honest debate to something less than that. Not only are you cherry-picking Binney's words, you're using them out of context. When Binney said that Snowden is transitioning to a traitor, it had nothing to do with Snowden's refusal to surrender himself to his persecutors. Binney felt that Snowden was crossing a line when he started talking about the US hacking into China. Binney was quite happy to have Snowden talk about the NSA illegally spying on US citizens.

I'm not using his words out of context but it sure sounds as if you've taken my words totally out of context. I have no idea where you are coming from with your off-the-wall accusations.

[ReeferMadness]

I'm not using his words out of context but it sure sounds as if you've taken my words totally out of context. I have no idea where you are coming from with your off-the-wall accusations.

And you won't have any idea if you don't make the effort to understand. Here's a recap:

You said: Binney said that Snowden should come back to the US and stand trial

I said: Binney actually said that Snowden should come back to stand trial only after those responsible for the NSA spying program (all the way up to the president) stand trial first. Unlike you, I provided a link to prove it

You said: Binney said that Snowden is transitioning to a traitor

The last statement has nothing to do with whether Snowden comes back to stand trial. You've dragged it in because clearly because you don't really like what Binney is saying in totality - that although Snowden might be taking this too far (Binney's views, not mine), the actions of the NSA and those who sanctioned it are far worse.

So, instead of debating honestly, you're cherry picking and quoting Binney out of context of the debate.

[Guest American Woman]

And you won't have any idea if you don't make the effort to understand. Here's a recap:

You said: Binney said that Snowden should come back to the US and stand trial

I've said no such thing. I was clearly quoting someone else regarding his coming back, and I provided the link.

I said: Binney actually said that Snowden should come back to stand trial only after those responsible for the NSA spying program (all the way up to the president) stand trial first. Unlike you, I provided a link to prove it You said: Binney said that Snowden is transitioning to a traitor

Binney did say that - and I did provide a link. So did you.

The last statement has nothing to do with whether Snowden comes back to stand trial. You've dragged it in because clearly because you don't really like what Binney is saying in totality - that although Snowden might be taking this too far (Binney's views, not mine), the actions of the NSA and those who sanctioned it are far worse.

Try not to speak for me, as clearly you have no idea why I "dragged" that in.

So, instead of debating honestly, you're cherry picking and quoting Binney out of context of the debate.

I'm doing no such thing, so I suggest you lay of the false accusations.

[ReeferMadness]

AW, I've reviewed the postings and I think I've fairly characterized things.

[Guest American Woman]

.

Edited August 11, 2013 by American Woman

[dre]

AW, I've reviewed the postings and I think I've fairly characterized things.

Youre getting some experience with the dishonest bait and switch type of argument AW is famous for.

Lets break down the various talking points...

1. Snowden should have used the "legal route".

This has been so thoroughly debunked and discredited its amazing anyone would cling to it. Intelligence whistleblowers who have tried this route have gotten absolutely NOWHERE and most of them were charged under the espionage act ANYWAYS. Three times in this thread she has been asked to name a single intelligence whistleblower that has EVERY gotten ANYWHERE using the legal route, and she has completely ignored the questions. She has also been provided with a half dozen quotes from former intelligence whistle blowers on the matter including one from one of her own sources. Not ONCE has she attempted to respond to any of it.

2. Nobody knows if Snowden would go to prison, and William Binney isnt in prison!

This set of assertions was also completely and thoroughly debunked. The last whistleblower is doing a 90 year jail term and will die in prison. The only reasons Binney didnt get prison time is because he never successfully blew the whistle on anything at all. He never went public... he tried the "legal route" and not only did he get nowhere at all, the Inspector General (who he was SUPPOSED to report this to) turned his name over to the justice department so that he could be part of a criminal investigation.

3. Snowden should have stayed in the US to "face the music"!

Another absolutely ridiculous assertion. Bradley Manning sat in jail for 3 years before there was even a trial, and then was sentenced to prison for the rest of his life.

And when challenged on these things you see the bait and switch. Quotes from Binney about a "transition to being a traitor" as if that somehow supports any of the arguments she has been making. I have never in all my years posting on internet forums seen a poster not only cling to assertions that have been so thoroughly debunked, but at the same time completely ignore every argument against their position.

She, and many others have it in for this guy. They hate him because he challenged the US government, nothing more. But at the end of the day one has to ask... Who are the traitors? Is it Snowden for revealing to Americans the extent of governement surveillance? Or the millions of authoritarian sycophants that have rounded on this guy like a pack of angry dogs, and by doing so encouraged the government to violate the rights of Americans.

Edited August 12, 2013 by dre

[jbg]

One question I have is, how do we really know that Snowden COULD let Russia if he wanted too? He could become a prisoner and no one would ever know.

His lawyer would know whether that happened or not. However, Snowden's email and phone conversations will definitely be listed to and read during the duration of his stay there. One can be certain of that.

I'm sure he'll be treated great the way anyone is in a free country </sarcasm>

[cybercoma]

There's an article in The Atlantic about Obama's insulting speech about these spying programs. The author raises a good point in regard to Snowden going the "legal" route:

[T]he Obama Administration has zealously persecuted a number of national security whistleblowers. I've yet to hear any whistleblower assert that Snowden could have dealt with this internally. Even the senators who thought Americans' rights were being violated could do little to stop it.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/08/the-surveillance-speech-a-low-point-in-barack-obamas-presidency/278565/

So what legal route is there when even Senators that opposed these things were incapable of stopping it?

Edited August 12, 2013 by cybercoma

[GostHacked]

There's an article in The Atlantic about Obama's insulting speech about these spying programs. The author raises a good point in regard to Snowden going the "legal" route:

So what legal route is there when even Senators that opposed these things were incapable of stopping it?

And that is only if those senators KNEW about the program.

[Hudson Jones]

Youre getting some experience with the dishonest bait and switch type of argument AW is famous for.

Lets break down the various talking points...

1. Snowden should have used the "legal route".

This has been so thoroughly debunked and discredited its amazing anyone would cling to it. Intelligence whistleblowers who have tried this route have gotten absolutely NOWHERE and most of them were charged under the espionage act ANYWAYS. Three times in this thread she has been asked to name a single intelligence whistleblower that has EVERY gotten ANYWHERE using the legal route, and she has completely ignored the questions. She has also been provided with a half dozen quotes from former intelligence whistle blowers on the matter including one from one of her own sources. Not ONCE has she attempted to respond to any of it.

2. Nobody knows if Snowden would go to prison, and William Binney isnt in prison!

This set of assertions was also completely and thoroughly debunked. The last whistleblower is doing a 90 year jail term and will die in prison. The only reasons Binney didnt get prison time is because he never successfully blew the whistle on anything at all. He never went public... he tried the "legal route" and not only did he get nowhere at all, the Inspector General (who he was SUPPOSED to report this to) turned his name over to the justice department so that he could be part of a criminal investigation.

3. Snowden should have stayed in the US to "face the music"!

Another absolutely ridiculous assertion. Bradley Manning sat in jail for 3 years before there was even a trial, and then was sentenced to prison for the rest of his life.

And when challenged on these things you see the bait and switch. Quotes from Binney about a "transition to being a traitor" as if that somehow supports any of the arguments she has been making. I have never in all my years posting on internet forums seen a poster not only cling to assertions that have been so thoroughly debunked, but at the same time completely ignore every argument against their position.

She, and many others have it in for this guy. They hate him because he challenged the US government, nothing more. But at the end of the day one has to ask... Who are the traitors? Is it Snowden for revealing to Americans the extent of governement surveillance? Or the millions of authoritarian sycophants that have rounded on this guy like a pack of angry dogs, and by doing so encouraged the government to violate the rights of Americans.

Shabam!

[PIK]

I would laugh if snowden was gay. That would putin in a pickle. But anyway snowden is a dead man, I give him less then 2 years. And what he did was wrong and deserves to be punished for it.

[cybercoma]

I would laugh if snowden was gay. That would putin in a pickle. But anyway snowden is a dead man, I give him less then 2 years. And what he did was wrong and deserves to be punished for it.

So Snowden deserves to be killed for that, but the Wall Street executives that engage in rents and usury, those who produce nothing and destroyed the economy, they're cool?

[Guest Derek L]

I would laugh if snowden was gay. That would putin in a pickle. But anyway snowden is a dead man, I give him less then 2 years. And what he did was wrong and deserves to be punished for it.

Or better yet, Putin exchanged him to the Americans for a Russian intelligence officer

[GostHacked]

I would laugh if snowden was gay. That would putin in a pickle. But anyway snowden is a dead man, I give him less then 2 years. And what he did was wrong and deserves to be punished for it.

Looking more like the old Soviets more and more. Guilty till proven innocent. America, she used to be a shining beacon, what happened?

[Guest Derek L]

Looking more like the old Soviets more and more. Guilty till proven innocent. America, she used to be a shining beacon, what happened?

How about if the Russians exchanged Snowden for Alexander Poteyev.......The Russians already had a trial for Poteyev, then the Americans could put Snowden before the courts.....

[dre]

Or better yet, Putin exchanged him to the Americans for a Russian intelligence officer

Or maybe he will be pardoned! If his actions result in changes to this program, or one of constitutional challenges is successful it will be pretty hard for the government to keep saying what he did was wrong.

And the program is a pretty blatant violation of the 4th amendment.

Still... what you are saying is possible. It wouldnt suprise me if the US made a secret deal, to bring him back and face a secret trial, for dislosing their secret programs.

Theres certainly lots of little authoritian yes boys cheering for this guy to get strung up!

Edited August 12, 2013 by dre