The many sects of Islam, so, which will dominate eventually?

[Guest Peeves]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/wave-of-attacks-hits-shia-and-sunni-areas-of-iraq-killing-at-least-57/article12024147/

Sunni? Shia?

I seemingly read this sort of thing and have for years. "

"Wave of attacks hits Shia and Sunni areas of Iraq, killing at least 57"

Kurds are targeted too.Have been for generations.

Then there's a lesser known sect I've been aware of that have been outcasts for generations..the Suffis regarded as even more heretical than kafirs

http://www.ryot.org/mystical-muslim-sufis-thrive-in-egypt-despite-attacks-by-radicals/211073

Not many here have studied religions particularly what is behind, the cause, history for the violence and hate between various sects of Islam.

Personally I believe the cause to be the same old cause of human history,the political seeking of power. I believe that exceeds any religious agenda.

Is the fact that Muslims have and are murdering each other (SEE ARAB SPRING_SEE SYRIA_ SEE EGYPT_ SEE HAMAS _FATAH), really any different than human history through the centuries for power?

Well it might be just a bit considering that many of those violent events in religious convictions are seemingly conducted by 'peaceful" religions.

Were and are these religious battles really for peace? Are religions peaceful?

Well, most of the contemporary 'religions" of today have evolved to peaceful solutions excepting I would suggest for one conspicuously still devoted to violence and a need for power.

Note; I reference RELIGIONS, not countries.

Countries that seem to have had any aspirations for expansion don't profess it to be a religious process as for example religiously ,Shia states as Iran- Syria- opposed by religiously Sunni states, all of course following a religion of peace.(not.)

Sadly the citizens suffer regardless the nature and target of the sectarian violence. Is that not always the way?

Witness the murders of Jews , Gypsies, etc. as an aftermath of Hitler's grab for Hitlers living space (Lebensraum), it is the innocent that die when the pious seek religious or other desires for power.

Christians suffer in Egypt for no reason, Suffis elsewhere for no reason, the innocent Bahá'í elsewhere all while the bigots and followers of religion claim to be peaceful. Has it not always been so?

Power. Greed, Avarice

Peace? Not by a hair ona chinny chin chin...

[GostHacked]

I think in a couple other religion threads or the terrorism threads we went in depth to the different factions within Islam. Islam has as many factions within it, like Christianity has the plethora of smaller sects.

Personally I believe the cause to be the same old cause of human history,the political seeking of power. I believe that exceeds any religious agenda.

The way I see it, religion has always been the tool that helped the political agenda of the ruling class. No matter what religion you follow.

Now within a secular society that may be changing, and religion may not have the influence on the surface, but it still controls much of what goes on behind the scenes.

I would say if people in the government were more secular (non-religious) then you might see a more logical approach to certain things.

I've used the term 'let's you and him fight' in my signature before and that applies here in some way.

The bigger simpler picture to me is Christianity pitting the two major sects of Islam against each other. Have the Sunnis and Shiites go at each other and then clean up whatever is left after the fact. Not sure if that same tactic is working the other way and dividing up and pitting different sects of Christianity against each other.

The thing that gets me is ... both religions claim to be for peace, when both religions act in complete opposite of peace. All over ideology.

To the seculars, atheists, agnostics, the actions of these peace loving religions really really confuses us.

[Bonam]

So long as religions maintain the power to short-circuit the rational minds of men and make them feel answerable only to some supernatural being whose will and justice they believe supersedes all else, so too will there be violence and hatred and suffering.

[Guest Peeves]

So long as religions maintain the power to short-circuit the rational minds of men and make them feel answerable only to some supernatural being whose will and justice they believe supersedes all else, so too will there be violence and hatred and suffering.

But, it's the irrational that become fanatical, fundamental ferverous followers of any religious order that are a problem. Benign followers that practice charity and brotherly love are no problem. Rational beings are generally like me, atheistic or agnostic.

[Guest Peeves]

I think in a couple other religion threads or the terrorism threads we went in depth to the different factions within Islam. Islam has as many factions within it, like Christianity has the plethora of smaller sects.

The way I see it, religion has always been the tool that helped the political agenda of the ruling class. No matter what religion you follow.

Now within a secular society that may be changing, and religion may not have the influence on the surface, but it still controls much of what goes on behind the scenes.

I would say if people in the government were more secular (non-religious) then you might see a more logical approach to certain things.

I've used the term 'let's you and him fight' in my signature before and that applies here in some way.

The bigger simpler picture to me is Christianity pitting the two major sects of Islam against each other. Have the Sunnis and Shiites go at each other and then clean up whatever is left after the fact. Not sure if that same tactic is working the other way and dividing up and pitting different sects of Christianity against each other.

The thing that gets me is ... both religions claim to be for peace, when both religions act in complete opposite of peace. All over ideology.

To the seculars, atheists, agnostics, the actions of these peace loving religions really really confuses us.

Agree. That's why I see any slight move that is inclined to religious pursuit as danger..to whit Turkey's leader. I believe there is an agenda there as

there is in ANY country with a dominant religion.For that matter, with any that has an increasingly more numerous following of an emerging religion in an otherwise predominantly secular country.

[Mighty AC]

So long as religions maintain the power to short-circuit the rational minds of men and make them feel answerable only to some supernatural being whose will and justice they believe supersedes all else, so too will there be violence and hatred and suffering.

Well said!

Sheeple are an extremely valuable resource. You have many individuals easily lead or controlled by a few. To sweeten the pot, these are people who have willingly suspended their reason to varying degrees. The leaders of sheeple desire to increase their flock and influence and political leaders desire support for their agenda. Co-opting sheeple into one's political ideology via control of a few religious leaders is a time tested, effective way to grab power and get ish done.

[GostHacked]

Bonam and Mighty AC. Hard to argue with either point!

[Shady]

Personally, I think the sheeple related to things like global warming are just as bad.

[GostHacked]

Personally, I think the sheeple related to things like global warming are just as bad.

Although there is a parallel here with global warming as a religion and how it is portrayed, let's stick with the subject at hand before we go off the deep end here.

[jbg]

I seemingly read this sort of thing and have for years. "

"Wave of attacks hits Shia and Sunni areas of Iraq, killing at least 57"

Kurds are targeted too.Have been for generations.

*********************************

Witness the murders of Jews , Gypsies, etc. as an aftermath of Hitler's grab for Hitlers living space (Lebensraum), it is the innocent that die when the pious seek religious or other desires for power.

Christians suffer in Egypt for no reason, Suffis elsewhere for no reason, the innocent Bahá'í elsewhere all while the bigots and followers of religion claim to be peaceful. Has it not always been so?

Power. Greed, Avarice

Peace? Not by a hair ona chinny chin chin...

The radical Muslims have an expression, "you love life and we love death." At the rate they're going that's what they'll have.

[Mighty AC]

Personally, I think the sheeple related to things like global warming are just as bad.

Ah...you missed an opportunity. If you're going to make such an off topic post you really should have spelled 'bad' like a sheep would say it. ba-ah-ah-ah-ad.

[Guest Peeves]

The radical Muslims have an expression, "you love life and we love death." At the rate they're going that's what they'll have.

The 'peaceful religion to die for eh.

I remember..? Patton? The object is not to die for your country, but to make the other SOB die for there's.

Still a Muslim, some Muslims, think that is to aspire to as martyrs.

I don't think Christianity has felt thus since the Crusades.

[Guest Peeves]

Ah...you missed an opportunity. If you're going to make such an off topic post you really should have spelled 'bad' like a sheep would say it. ba-ah-ah-ah-ad.

Never miss an opportunity for a punishing retort.

[Mighty AC]

Still a Muslim, some Muslims, think that is to aspire to as martyrs.

I don't think Christianity has felt thus since the Crusades.

At present, Islam is certainly more of a problem than Christianity, as the latter has been forced to temper its views to a greater degree over time. However, Christians are still killing for their religious beliefs. Do you feel it is worse to aspire to die while killing for religion than to simply kill for religion?

[Guest Peeves]

At present, Islam is certainly more of a problem than Christianity, as the latter has been forced to temper its views to a greater degree over time. However, Christians are still killing for their religious beliefs. Do you feel it is worse to aspire to die while killing for religion than to simply kill for religion?

Where are Christians 'still killing for their religious beliefs' ? Please expand on that position.

Also re your query "Do you feel it is worse to aspire to die while killing for religion than to simply kill for religion?"

A martyr has to be irrational and/or brain washed to desire death by murdering an innocent victim, civilian, child, or bus load of people simply because they are of a different belief, sect etc.

The only subtle difference is that one may be defending themselves in killing for their religious freedom or simply to survive.

To set out to kill simply for one's religion staggers my imagination given the protestations by religious fundamentalists that religion is striving for peace.

In a generation of contemporary and past times,Jews were murdered for simply being Jews, Baha'i for being Baha'i, Sunni for being Sunni, etc.

Those complicit in their murder have been over the centuries, Christians, Muslims, Atheists and pretty much any that wanted a scape goat for anything.

If someone is irrationally attacking me,a civilian, an innocent, a differing sectarian follower, just out to murder anyone or if they are yelling a tribal chant, cheer or exultation, It matters little their motivation.

One is simply devoid of rational thought or mercy. The other? I would need know their situation or motive.

[Mighty AC]

To set out to kill simply for one's religion staggers my imagination given the protestations by religious fundamentalists that religion is striving for peace.

Yet those same fundamentalists always feel justified in doing their god's work. Sad that these evil, vengeful gods are so pitiful and weak that they require humans to do their bidding.

Where are Christians 'still killing for their religious beliefs' ? Please expand on that position.

Christianity certainly leads the league in historical religious violence but Islam is currently a larger problem. However, Christian terrorists aren't done yet; they are still killing, and advocating violence, in the name of their all loving, peaceful god. Until fairly recently targets of violence where often other sects of Christianity, but now they tend to target gays, abortion doctors and Muslims.

Homosexuals

Anti-homosexuality Bill - Uganda

Openly Gay Mississippi Mayoral Candidate Set On Fire and Dumped in River

70 year old gay man stoned to death

Christian kills his 5 year old for being gay

Other Religions

Fundamentalist Kills 77 In Norway to "Preserve a Christian Europe"

Christians burn 100's of Muslims alive in Nigeria

Doctors

Born Again Christian Kills Abortion Doctor

South Dakota Moves To Legalize Killing Abortion Providers

Man wielding axe attacks Planned Parenthood clinic, cites religious beliefs

Sniper Attacks on Doctors Create Climate of Fear in Canada

One is simply devoid of rational thought or mercy. The other? I would need know their situation or motive.

In my opinion, religious belief in general requires the suspension of rational thought. Some very rational and reasonable people purposefully refuse to apply the same sound, skepticism to religion that they apply to every other area of their lives. How is this achieved? A culture of brainwashing. Teach anyone from birth that this life matters little and the god is always right and you get a compliant puppet. Now throw strife, poverty, anger, promises of rewards for positive action and you have a compliant soldier.

[Guest Peeves]

There are indeed singular events of extremes perpetrated by those claiming to be Christians. Contemporary Christian fundamentalists,divisions nor churches practice violence as a general rule what is fundamental to todays Islam, and has been from its beginnings.

You can't compare violence by todays Christians with todays Muslims. Apples and pear.

There are no Christians in Western society that would endorse murder over their religion while there are followers of present day Islam that applaud martyrdom that follows the murder of a differing sect, civilian, children on a bus or in a mosque, or ..........why bother,if you don't get the distinction it matters not.

[Michael Hardner]

There are indeed singular events of extremes perpetrated by those claiming to be Christians. Contemporary Christian fundamentalists,divisions nor churches practice violence as a general rule what is fundamental to todays Islam, and has been from its beginnings.

You can't compare violence by todays Christians with todays Muslims. Apples and pear.

Firstly, can you actually provide a numeric analysis of these things ? Let me set the bar a little higher - please make it irrespective of time period, and take out so-called cultural factors.

It can't be done, of course.

The reason why it's important to point that out is because the implied solution to perceived flaws in other peoples is to quarantine and keep them out. It would make sense if they were susceptible to the religious disease in a way that "we" are not. But that isn't the case. Religion affects all humans in the same way - for good and bad, I'd say.

So, an open multi-faith society may in fact be the "cure".

[Guest Peeves]

Maybe.

[Mighty AC]

Peeves, let me get this straight. When Muslims kill or endorse violence it's the fault of their religion, whereas when Christians do the same it's the fault of the individual? It seems to me that in either case people are killing for brainwashed beliefs forced upon them by the accidental location of their birth.

In my opinion, the solution is the dilution of the power of religion through increased skepticism and critical thinking. We're moving in the right direction, but just not as fast as I'd like. That tends to be the nature of cultural change and progress though.

[The_Squid]

When Muslims kill or endorse violence it's the fault of their religion, whereas when Christians do the same it's the fault of the individual?

You missed the part where when Christians kill, they are not real Christians, but when Muslims kill they are doing what their religion tells them to do.

There are indeed singular events of extremes perpetrated by those claiming to be Christians.

[Shady]

This is the typical process that takes place whenever Islam is attempted to be discussed in this forum. It always devolves into a discussion about all religion, by the usual suspects. It's funny, because we can discuss any other religions issues without the same thing happening. But for whatever reason. The usual suspects flock to pretend that Islamic extremism is the same type of threat that other extremists from other religions. Even though all of the evidence suggests completley otherwise. It's like they keep their head in the sand, refusing to acknowledge definitive differences. It's pathetic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NRvtr7x3-A

[Guest Peeves]

Peeves, let me get this straight. When Muslims kill or endorse violence it's the fault of their religion, whereas when Christians do the same it's the fault of the individual? It seems to me that in either case people are killing for brainwashed beliefs forced upon them by the accidental location of their birth.

In my opinion, the solution is the dilution of the power of religion through increased skepticism and critical thinking. We're moving in the right direction, but just not as fast as I'd like. That tends to be the nature of cultural change and progress though.

That's not getting anything straight at all.

Islam as a political force over the world and over it's entire history up to and including today is filled with both sectarian and indiscriminate violence. Your attempt to equate that behavior to contemporary religion of any other contemporary belief is disingenuous and unsupportable.

Fundamental Islam is simply politically devoted to the Koran as it is interpreted in a context of conversion, occupation and death. Witness the Islamic world of today vs any other Western country based on the tenets of Judaism or Christianity, no comparison.

Those that are attempting to show the similarity are quite simply apologists and in denial. The proof is in the daily news. Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran etc. of today. Suppression of liberty,press,media, voting rights, and some schools, mosques teaching hate.

Sorry any attempt at comparison fails and any intelligent person should see the difference.

[Mighty AC]

This is the typical process that takes place whenever Islam is attempted to be discussed in this forum. It always devolves into a discussion about all religion, by the usual suspects. It's funny, because we can discuss any other religions issues without the same thing happening. But for whatever reason. The usual suspects flock to pretend that Islamic extremism is the same type of threat that other extremists from other religions. Even though all of the evidence suggests completley otherwise. It's like they keep their head in the sand, refusing to acknowledge definitive differences. It's pathetic.

I've said repeatedly that Islam is currently a far bigger problem. However, I find it pathetic when people deride Muslims and apologize for Christians in the same breath.

[Mighty AC]

That's not getting anything straight at all.

Islam as a political force over the world and over it's entire history up to and including today is filled with both sectarian and indiscriminate violence. Your attempt to equate that behavior to contemporary religion of any other contemporary belief is disingenuous and unsupportable.

Fundamental Islam is simply politically devoted to the Koran as it is interpreted in a context of conversion, occupation and death. Witness the Islamic world of today vs any other Western country based on the tenets of Judaism or Christianity, no comparison.

Those that are attempting to show the similarity are quite simply apologists and in denial. The proof is in the daily news. Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran etc. of today. Suppression of liberty,press,media, voting rights, and some schools, mosques teaching hate.

Sorry any attempt at comparison fails and any intelligent person should see the difference.

Why are you comparing the Middle East to only Western nations....and only today? Are African Christians not true believers? Are the bloody deeds done by European Christians for hundreds of years forgivable?

Thankfully, in recent times, Christian leaders have decided that morality trumps the word of god and pretend that much of the hate the Bible spews does not apply. I personally think that the watering down effect is a triumph of skepticism and materialism. Give people something to lose and a little knowledge and all of a sudden the men spewing BS in the name of a god start to look a lot like big foot chasers and living Elvis spotters.