Israel's 10 year racist law anniversary

Bonam · July 16, 2013

Here are some of the most blatant racist and discriminatory laws:

Jewish National Fund Law
Name: Jewish National Fund Law Enacted: 1953 Status: Active Themes: Land and Planning Rights
Description: Bestows on the Jewish National Fund (JNF or Keren Kayemeth LeIsrael)—a Zionist organization that was established in 1901 to collect funds for the purpose of purchasing land for the exclusive benefit of the Jewish people—governmental authorities, and provides financial advantages, including tax relief, in purchasing land.

Basic Law: Israel Lands
Name: Basic Law: Israel Lands Enacted: 1960 Status: Active Themes: Land and Planning Rights
Description:
Stipulates that the ownership of “Israel lands”—namely land under the control of the state, the JNF, and the Development Authority—cannot be transferred in any manner. However, the law allows transfer of land ownership between these three entities, knowing that the JNF seeks to lease land that it owns to Jews only.

Really? Those are the worst of the so-called "racist" laws you've been harping on about? One is a tax break for a non-profit group and another is an allowance to use state lands? Seriously?

You must be one of these people that thinks that requiring voter ID is a "racist" law because some demagogue told you so.

Rue · July 16, 2013

Now you have seen them.

What now? Deflection?

Yes this coming from someone who will not because he can not address the issues I raise directly.

Still waiting for you how you plan to destroy Israel. Why won't you respond and explain how you intend to wipe it out and what you intend to do with anyone you consider Zionist. Do you have the integrity to finish what you start when you come on this forum and try incite violence through couched references to terrorist attacks? Do you? Go on finish it. You have the nerve to accuse others of deflecting when you call for terror and then refuse to say how you will implement that terror and pathetically try justify it by saying you only mean violence against Zionists. Oh that makes it morally correct.

You are past laughable. Have you even read the laws you are referring to as "racist"?

Once again you are trying to suggest certain laws discriminate against a particular race of people when clearly they do not. If anything they create a fast track for certain Jews for citizenship.

It would appear you think non Jewish Israelis are a race of people. You are of course sadly mistaken but its what you do. Use words like "race" and "racism" in an absurd context because you lack the intellectual discipline to take the time to properly identify which people you think are being unfairly treated.

Israelis whether they are Jewish, Muslim or Christian or non Jewish could be treated in exactly the same manner you claim only treats non Jewish Israelis unfairly. If you took the time to read the laws and learn how they were applied you would know why. However you have no clue how these lies are applied. Not a clue. The combined some of your alleged knowledge comes from reading web site bites. You have not a clue as to the laws you refer to. Not a clue.

To you religion, culture, its all the same to you isn't it. Just throw out that word race.

You are a parrot. You keep chirping the same chirp of "racism" but you haven't a clue what you think the sound means. You mimmick someone else's sound without having a clue what it is you mimmick.

Are you even capable of reading the alleged law you quote and explaining how it discriminates against

someone because of their "race"?

Go on. After you explain how you intend to dispose of Zionist Jews, read the law and tell me how it discriminates against someone's race.

Lol. Deflection? You won't answer. You can't. You have demonstrated on this forum repeatedly you never finish what you start. You never explain your views. You just throw out subjective assumptions with zero proof of their basis.

Go on stop repeating the web site list and explain how the laws discriminate. You can't. You can't read that far. Your attentions pan clearly expires after one sound bite.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Rue

Rue · July 16, 2013

Since Israel's inception there have been a progression of laws dealing with land that was abandon by individuals who fled what became pre-1967 Israel after the Arab League of nations initiated a war to kill off all Jews in this area.

H Jones conveniently ignores the war to drive out Jews triggered the exodus of non Jewish Palestinians within pre-1967 Israel and pre-1967 Israel came about when the Arab League of Nations ran away from the war they started. They literally panicked and gave up and ran when the Jews they thought they could kill wouldn't die and fought back.

That he will not acknowledge.

Nor will he acknowledge that the actual total of pre 1967 Israel this land entails is only 13% of pre-1967 Israel.

He also ignores that the Supreme Court of Israel ruled that such land is to be leased to ANY Israeli citizen not just Jewish ones. In H Jones world, he ignores the laws in Israel, the very laws that prove he is wrong.

Now the Jewish National Fund is accused by people who have no clue as to Israel's existence as simply having stolen

land from Muslims and resold it to Jews.

That is the revisionism H Jones would love to peddle.

What he won't discuss is the 250,000 Jews that came to settle on those lands, were refugees thrown out of Arab league nations after those nations stole all their belongings and the lands they leased forcing them to flee to Israel.

That he won't discuss. Nor will he discuss that while he comes on this forum and pontificates how Israel took this land from Arabs for Jews, no Jew is allowed to own land anywhere in Sharia law nations of the Middle East. Not one peep.

He sees it credible to say if a Jewish state created itself to guarantee Jews land to live on that is "racist" but the Sharia law nations of the Middle East who refuse to allow Jews to own land forcing them to Israel-well that's just fine.

Jews should just pooooooof disappear. Thus the reference to killing them all and then trying to rationalize it by saying he only means to destroy Zionist Jews. What does he intend to do with the ones HE (hah) determines are non ZIonist? Where will they go? Oh wait, they will move to Jordan. Uh no. Jordan created out of 90% of the land mandated for a Jewish state has a law that says Jews can not own land in Jordan or become citizens of Jordan. Oooopsy.

Say I know the Jews can move to Afghanistan, Sudan, Yemen, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, they will be warmly welcomed.

Oh wait. Let's send them back to Germany or wherever else their ancestors came from er or kill them whatever.

Oh but wait, none of those countries recognize their rights to return to property they owned. oooops.H Jones forgot that.

Say now both the Sharia law and European nations seized Jewish property and gave it away to non Jews and won't give it back. Imagine that. Funny how that works.

European natons can unilaterally seize Jews of their land, try gas them all, and when some of these Jews were able flee to Israel, those Jews poof are not escaping racism against Jews no no no they just for nor reason decided to comeand be racist against Arabs. They had nothing better to do and remember according to H Jones and the nations he supports, the holocaust never happened, its a phony Zionist lie to justify being racist.

Never mind the Arab League nations throwing more Jews out of their countries than were displaced by Israel forcing those Jews to Israel-just ignore that.

I mean the audacity that Jews fleed persecution and created a state so they could own land so never again would they be discriminated against. Uh no. Let's just ignore the discrimination against Jews and pretend they just poof camefrom under cabbage leaves to hate Arabs.

How dare these Jews think they have a right to live in a country where their Jewishness will not be used as an excuse to gas them or persecute them.

Why could they not just sizzle and burn properly right H Jones. Gosh darn it why could they not just all have been killed of right H Jones? Go on say it.

What is it with Jews that they refuse to just crinkle up and die H Jones?

How is it they have all their property seized in Europe and the Middle East, flee this blatant anti-Semitic persecution, take a last existential stand in the desert of their forefathersand you "H Jones" call them racist for fighting against discrimination and their lives?

The 13 percent of the land in Israel now is home to homeless Jews who fled there. The irony is H Jones will not explain why Arab League nations with all their land could not offer citizenship to the Arabs they told to flee.

He won't discuss how the Arab League nations deliberately imprisoned them in open air detention camps. He won't discuss how the Arab League of nations discriminates against Palestinians and loaths them.

Not H Jones. "His" mandate is to selectively revise history to ignore as much as possible and pretend Jews are hateful people who for no reason seize land from others.

July 16, 2013

Really? Those are the worst of the so-called "racist" laws you've been harping on about? One is a tax break for a non-profit group and another is an allowance to use state lands? Seriously?

My thoughts exactly. As I keep saying, I haven't seen "50 racist laws," in spite of the claims all over the internet by all of the usual suspects.

Hudson Jones · July 16, 2013

Really? Those are the worst of the so-called "racist" laws you've been harping on about? One is a tax break for a non-profit group and another is an allowance to use state lands? Seriously?

You must be one of these people that thinks that requiring voter ID is a "racist" law because some demagogue told you so.

Really? Are you so numb to racism and discrimination that your reaction to preferential land laws for only one group of citizens is: "really?" Like it doesn't matter to you that one group of citizens are given preferential treatment when it comes to land over another?

Fortunately, not all Jews are numb to Israel's racist and discriminatory behaviour and the rate of those who condemn racism, especially when it comes to Jews living outside of Israel, are increasing because the Israeli government's actions and moral values does not reflect their values.

jbg · July 17, 2013

Its statements like these I blast you for. Non Jews will not grasp what you said. What bothers me is not what you said. One on one I share the sentiments but we have these sentiments for reasons non Jews will not understand out of context and it will fuel hate monger sites like H Jones.

Why I criticize you is you do not take the time sometimes to explain yourself and these bites of response come across simply as hateful.

I appreciate your taking the time to explain our three-year rift.

To explain to non-Jews what I mean, there are Jews who integrate into Canadian and American society, more or less, and Jews, such as Chasids, who reject such integration. In my area, in a Chasidic village, a young man was almost burned alive, at the behest of a Chasid rabbi, because he deigned to worship in the "wrong" facility. Jews, among other groups, have gained much through participating in our relatively open, free countries.

I decry anyone of any religion who rejects the rule of law.

.

Rue · July 17, 2013

Fortunately, not all Jews are numb to Israel's racist and discriminatory behaviour and the rate of those who condemn racism, especially when it comes to Jews living outside of Israel, are increasing because the Israeli government's actions and moral values does not reflect their values.

You speak for no one just yourself and your site. This pretention you now speak for Jews is hilarious it also shows

the fantasy world you live in.

Rue · July 17, 2013

I appreciate your taking the time to explain our three-year rift.

To explain to non-Jews what I mean, there are Jews who integrate into Canadian and American society, more or less, and Jews, such as Chasids, who reject such integration. In my area, in a Chasidic village, a young man was almost burned alive, at the behest of a Chasid rabbi, because he deigned to worship in the "wrong" facility. Jews, among other groups, have gained much through participating in our relatively open, free countries.

I decry anyone of any religion who rejects the rule of law.

I totally agree with your sentiments. We just have to be careful.

Chasids for those who do not know come in to rough categories. Some support the state of Israel, others do not. The ones who do not believe the Messiah must return before Israel can be created and therefore the current state of Israel

is an "abomination". Some of them have allowed themselves to be used as pawns by the Iranian government at a deny the holocaust convention.

They live in Israel and demand all the benefits the state has to offer including welfare because they do not work,just pray and depend on charitable handouts.

Interestingly anti semites like to lump all Jews into one big group.

Chasids are well known because of their visible appearance of wearing black robes, big fur hats, beards side hair.

Many live in Hebron.

Another portion of these Chasids do recognize the State of Israel but they still prohibit their members from joining the Israeli defence Forces but expect the IDF to defend them. They live separate and apart from other Jews. They do not consider Jews such as JBG and myself Jews. They can have extreme fundamentalist views that do not reflect mainstream Jews or Israeli Jews let alone the majority of Jews. They are a minority.

My criticism of this group is they live in a secluded world and cling to antiquated views of women, sex, religion, morality. I also do not like the way they will say someone like me is not a real Jew.

Now the Chasids should not be confused with other orthodox Jews who have for example settled on the West Bank and come from New York and are extremist in their views and believe the Bible indicates all of Judea and Somaria (Jordan and Israel and probably a bit of Iraq, Lebanon, Syria) belong to Jews.

They can be violent and one of their founding leaders was a violent hateful man who incited violence against Palestinians and Arab peoples.

Of the settlers on the West Bank one third of the Jews might fall under this category. Another third are non religious Jews who moved their because of tax benefits. The other third would be Chasid Jews who live in Hebron and other such areas and do not recognize the state of Israel.

Interestingly the Palestinian Authority pretends they do not exist and while countries like Iran use them in a pretentious game like H Jones tries to do to suggest there are Jews who are against Israel what Iran does not tell you is it expelled them all and so did all the Arab countries except those on the West Bank and those in Morrocco who the

Muslim monarchy has always protected or at least tried to protect.

However these anti Israel Jews have been massacered by Muslims before and after Israeli came into existence.

You might also want to ask yourself whether H Jones could care less whether a Jew is pro or anti Israel. He wouldn't know the difference and more importantly the terrorists he supports could care less and when they bomb kill all Jews and supporters of Israel-uh no they do not do a test to see if they are acceptable to H Jones or not.

The frustration JBG shares unfortunately is a sad reflection on all extremists. Extremists who use religion we surely all agree (except H Jones) are an obstacle to peace and democracy.

I was going to school at Hebrew University of Jerusalem studying history and political psychology one summer when

a female student and I took the bus home to our residence on the other side of Jerusalem situated right next to an

Chasidic neighbourhood. We got out of the bus and were walking home at about 7 pm on a weekday when an Chasid spit at her in the face because her legs and arms were showing. I grabbed the guy and knocked him out one punch. Suddenly we were swarmed by Chasids coming out of every corner of the streets like a bunch of fire ants. The female student I was with was holding her own knocking one down after the other and I must have punched out five guys but the rocks and stones were hitting us and we were both bloody and the sob's broke my nose near my eye with a rock.

Suddenly the police were there and they pulled us both out and sprayed people with water. Of course we got shit for antagonizing these people but you know in a way where the police were lecturing us not to be so damn stupid but also

appreciating the practical issue. The police and army can't stand having to police them and getting spit on.

In a modern Western state like Israel people living in a world of the past clash with the society and its not just fundamentalist Muslims, its these kinds of Jews too and the laws collide not just with orthodox Muslims but orthodox Christians and Jews do. This is not an issue of race as it is culture and past fundamentalist views trying to remain as

the world changes including Israel and the Arab nations and Western non religious values filter in to both Jewish and Muslim societies in the Middle East as well as the old traditional Christian ones.

We Jews are of many cultures and so our belief in democracy, what constitutes a progressive and modern society, can clash with certain fundamentalists and not just Muslim ones but Jewish and Christian ones.

In that respect we are no different than people who today consider themselves Muslim or Christian but reject the orthodox or fundamentalist views of their own religion.

The kind of Muslim extremist who fuels the Muslim Brotherhoods, Hezbollah, Hamas, they and the clergy who justify their existence still control the hearts and minds of many Muslims but democratic values questioning terrorism, intolerance and demanding a separation of religion from state are slowly coming to other countries.

Israel is a complex hybrid of old and new of all three religious origins and every spectrum of political I ideology ranging from anarchist-communist anti Israel to extreme right wing totalitarian on the other.

The full spectrum is found in the Knesset representing not just Jewish Israelis but Muslim and Christian Israelis as

well.

This is something H Jones wants to distort and misrepresent. His site wants you to reduce all Jews into 2 categories, one he approves of and the other he does not. The ones he approves of because he claims they hate Israel he has no idea about. He has never met one. He lives his life through white supremacist and Muslim extremist inter-net sites who raise them as a pretense to utter anti-Semitic remarks.

H Jones is so out of touch he quotes Benny Morris thinking this new Historian is anti Israeli.

Oh look says H Jones I found an anti Israeli Jewish Historian.

Someone needs to tell him Mr.Morris admitted what he does is not history nor is he anything but a Zionist who in fact

believes Jews and Arabs need to be separated from one another. This ridiculous H Jones quotes the very kind of person he thinks he is criticizing.

As for JBG and myself and many Jews, we are not perfect. However we do not embrace religious extremism. The fact we support a collective identity and nation for Jews does not mean we hate Muslims.

My battles with JBG are over choice of language. I criticize myself for the exact same mistakes. I am no better than he is at times unintentionally generalizing.

The bottom line though is we want people to move into the modern times and learn to progress past

Biblical times.

This notion women should remain covered and are inferior or we should persecute gays or threaten women who get abortions, its not what we signed up for with any of these extremists in all these religions.

None of us agree on much but we do agree that we should be in the modern age and treat women and gays as equals.

In regards to abortion-none of my business. That is a decision for the woman, her body, her family and her doctor.

I see no role from the state.

I think most modern people of all faiths would agree with that.

I wish we would just sometimes let people think for themselves rather than engage in H Jones slurs of imagined groups of people dictating what we should all think about them and all of life for that matter.

Somewhere H Jones got the idea he is the Messiah sent to save the world. Many Chasids thought the Messiah came in the form of a guy called Rabbiah Shnneerson. That old guy kicked the bucket and they realized oopsy he was not the messiah.

Neither is H Jones.

bleeding heart · July 17, 2013

So anyone who sees themselves as a historian, teaches history, and writes books - is a historian. Good to know. The world, evidently, is filled to the brim with historians.

Who died and made you boss?

Rue claimed that Morris himself said he wasn't an historian. So the discussion, at least between rue and myself, is not quite the contorted one he is now backtracking towards.

bleeding heart · July 17, 2013

As for Bleeding. First he accused me of being anti gay.Now he says I accused him of being anti-Semite.

I have not stated he is an anti-Semite. He inferred that just as he did I am anti gay. Its what he does.

Here's what you wrote:

"You respect everyone's identity

er um except the collective identity of Jews right?"

Try to debate with a little integrity, Rue. It might make you feel a little better!

Edited July 17, 2013 by bleeding heart

Rue · July 18, 2013

Rue claimed that Morris himself said he wasn't an historian. So the discussion, at least between rue and myself, is not quite the contorted one he is now backtracking towards.

Not quite so fast. Benny Morris has admitted as I stated in public he was not following the role

of an historian. He admitted he violated the code of historians.

The term "new historian" he did not attach to himself. People who are anti Israeli and wanted to use

him and others like him like Pappe to try delegitimize the right of Jews to have a state came up

with the phrase.

Is that clear? Back track uh no. You trying to once again re-write or misinterpret what I said, maybe.

Rue · July 18, 2013

Here's what you wrote:

"You respect everyone's identity

er um except the collective identity of Jews right?"

Try to debate with a little integrity, Rue. It might make you feel a little better!

Integrity? Lol you mean like you bragging on this forum you don't read more than a word or two of

what people have to say?

Do you mean the Hudson Jones site whose sole agenda on this forum is to disseminate recycled diatribes

against Israel containing nothing but subjective allegations that are never proven or discriminatory

negative stereotypes about Jews who wish to have a collective identity and non Jews who support that

right?

Save the righteous tone Bleeding. You set the tone of your level of debate a long time ago. You

are in no position to lecture anyone about integrity.

In fact you joined in this thread to support and defend a person who came on this board to incite hatred

and terror. You want to pretend otherwise be my guest.

I say it again H Jones or whatever claims to be that name came on this forum calling for the destruction of the State of Israel referring to Israelis as a cancer. He then tried to rationalize that by saying

its reasonable because he only wants Zionist Jews or Zionist supporters in Israel destroyed.

You want to defend that and lecture me on integrity?

You want to lecture me on integrity while you try misrepresent what I said about Morris?

Right.

I dish back the crap I am given. so do some others on this forum. Sometimes we disagree-but 99% of people on this forum do not come on it with one agenda and call for the destruction of people and incite violence and hatred.

Integrity?

Right please do explain to me what grain of sincerity let alone credibility in the methods of communication and choice of words "H Jones" has used on this site.

If his hatred was directed at anyone else but Jews, would you be defending him? Well? If he said the same

thing about gayople what would you do?

Integrity? Have you come on this forum and challenged his words calling for the destruction of Israel

as unbecoming? Of course not.

What you did do is try accuse me of being a homophobe. That is the level you put yourself at. You don't debate what I said, you launch into an allegation I am intolerant of gays. Right. What I am intolerant of and am open about my intolerance of is two faced sob's who expect others to live by the very standards they demonstrate contempt for.

What I am intolerant of are people like you who accuse people of being anti gay while you defend the very same discriminatory stereotypes you think are delivered at you for being ay at Jews.

In your world gays are a collective people-Jews are not. Gays can express themselves as a collective community and nation but Jews can not.

Got it.

Save it for Iran, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and all the other nations of the Middle East where being gay is an abomination and crime but you do not utter a peep about.

Not not you, because in your world the Jewish collective identity which created a nation in Israel and welcomes Jewish Muslims fleeing persecution from these countries, is racist right?

Integrity?

Right.

Save the lecture about integrity. Your selectivity as to what you find integral is lacking in integrity of any kind.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Rue

bleeding heart · July 18, 2013

Save the righteous tone Bleeding. You set the tone of your level of debate a long time ago. You

are in no position to lecture anyone about integrity.

If you don't like it when people point out that you falsely deem them as anti-semites...then don't use such a cowardly little method of "debate."

GostHacked · July 18, 2013

Sorry to interrupt, I'll be brief. Rue ...... Jewish Muslims ?? Like Kosher Halal?

Rue · July 18, 2013

If you don't like it when people point out that you falsely deem them as anti-semites...then don't use such a cowardly little method of "debate."

People? Lol. What people. Speaking about being cowardly. Now you want to hide behind the description people? What if you place yourself in the plural sense I won't seem so frightening to you? What a joke.

Your attempt to prop yourself behind a rainbow flag and try play the gay victim with me was cowardly.

To discriminate against Jews for wanting to have a collective identity is bigoted. You do not think Jews should be allowed a collective status but you would be the first to call anyone who denied gays such a status a homophobe.

You embrace people who use gay pride parades to single out the only nation in the Middle East taking in gay refugees from Arab countries and call for Israel's destruction.

Now you want to play victim yet again and suggest I unfairly called you an anti-semite and you are a victim of this false allegation.

Right this coming from someone who throws his gay card whenever he feels threatened. What a two faced patoot.

Get this straight-I criticize you for discriminating against we Jews who believe we should have a collective identity. I think that makes you a raving two faced contradiction.

Your latest attempt to play unfairly accused anti-semite is a crock. I could care less what you think of non Zionist Jews and whether you think your bigotry is justified because you think you can play that bs semantic game of saying some of your best friends are Jews as long as they know their place and don't get uppity and think they need a country. Shove your bigoted patronizing two faced

pretentious attitude towards Jews.

Don't you tell me or any Jew we do not know our place because we dare express our national collectivity. You find it uppity, get tis=kiss my Star of David. Kapiche?

Your bigotry speaks loud and clear for itself using your gay identity as a pretense to justify anti Jewish sentiment is a crock.

Hiding behind your gay status is cowardly. Hiding your anti Jewish sentiment behind the Rainbow flag shows what you are.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Rue

Rue · July 18, 2013

Sorry to interrupt, I'll be brief. Rue ...... Jewish Muslims ?? Like Kosher Halal?

Oy. That is as good as Jewish Christians. Must have been the pork I ate.

July 18, 2013

Oy. That is as good as Jewish Christians. Must have been the pork I ate.

I think I've been accused of being a Christian Jew. Does that count?

jbg · July 19, 2013

I totally agree with your sentiments. We just have to be careful.

***************

The frustration JBG shares unfortunately is a sad reflection on all extremists. Extremists who use religion we surely all agree (except H Jones) are an obstacle to peace and democracy.

The situation hits close to home.

Some Chasidic sect has created a school district called Kiryat Joel (sp) in Rockland County,about 30 kms from where I live They demand, and misappropriate, government benefits for schools. One of the founders was among those pardoned by Bill Clinton; and the village voted about 99% for Hilary in the 2000 Senate election. Coincidence? The pardonee's offense was taking 100% of the money for building a school, and pocketing it.

In another village a young man decided to worship in a different facility. His penalty was near-fatal injuries from a house fire.

One doesn't have to look as far as Israel to see this behavior; Rockland County is far enough.

All the same, Rue makes a good point of not giving Jew-haters fodder.

bleeding heart · July 19, 2013

People? Lol. What people. Speaking about being cowardly. Now you want to hide behind the description people? What if you place yourself in the plural sense I won't seem so frightening to you? What a joke.

Your attempt to prop yourself behind a rainbow flag and try play the gay victim with me was cowardly.

To discriminate against Jews for wanting to have a collective identity is bigoted. You do not think Jews should be allowed a collective status but you would be the first to call anyone who denied gays such a status a homophobe.

You embrace people who use gay pride parades to single out the only nation in the Middle East taking in gay refugees from Arab countries and call for Israel's destruction.

Now you want to play victim yet again and suggest I unfairly called you an anti-semite and you are a victim of this false allegation.

Right this coming from someone who throws his gay card whenever he feels threatened. What a two faced patoot.

Get this straight-I criticize you for discriminating against we Jews who believe we should have a collective identity. I think that makes you a raving two faced contradiction.

Your latest attempt to play unfairly accused anti-semite is a crock. I could care less what you think of non Zionist Jews and whether you think your bigotry is justified because you think you can play that bs semantic game of saying some of your best friends are Jews as long as they know their place and don't get uppity and think they need a country. Shove your bigoted patronizing two faced

pretentious attitude towards Jews.

Don't you tell me or any Jew we do not know our place because we dare express our national collectivity. You find it uppity, get tis=kiss my Star of David. Kapiche?

Your bigotry speaks loud and clear for itself using your gay identity as a pretense to justify anti Jewish sentiment is a crock.

Hiding behind your gay status is cowardly. Hiding your anti Jewish sentiment behind the Rainbow flag shows what you are.

First of all, I have no idea why you believe I'm gay, and why you think I "hide behind [my] gay status," which does not in fact exist; nor do I know why your mistaking my sexual preference has you so vexed.

Second, I don't deny collective Jewish identity, and I'm not an anti-Semite. You're the one making the awful allegation, so the onus is on you to cite instances of my anti-Semitism; and to cite where I "deny [your] collective identity"; and where I've even faintly hinted that the Jewish people are "uppity."

Your tantrum-throwing is one thing; your delusions--or outright dishonesty, in which you promiscuously toss about the "ant-semite" card where it most certainly does not belong--is another thing altogether.

We have long and often disagreed with one another, and have neither of us always been civil. But now you're determined, for some reason, to sink to depths you have normally and intentionally avoided. And that's too bad.

Edited July 19, 2013 by bleeding heart

Rue · July 19, 2013

The situation hits close to home.

Some Chasidic sect has created a school district called Kiryat Joel (sp) in Rockland County,about 30 kms from where I live They demand, and misappropriate, government benefits for schools. One of the founders was among those pardoned by Bill Clinton; and the village voted about 99% for Hilary in the 2000 Senate election. Coincidence? The pardonee's offense was taking 100% of the money for building a school, and pocketing it.

In another village a young man decided to worship in a different facility. His penalty was near-fatal injuries from a house

One doesn't have to look as far as Israel to see this behavior; Rockland County is far enough.

All the same, Rue makes a good point of not giving Jew-haters fodder.

Acknowledge again your comments. Completely agreed. Not based on hated but a frustration as to double standards being demanded. I will leave it at that. In fact your situation is far worse than what we have in Canada. Our laws make it impossible for such things to happen but ironically in our constitution public Catholic school boards are still guaranteed. All provinces of Ontario have done away with that distinction. Education is the sole jurisdiction of the provinces unless curriculum becomes so problematic it may trigger hate laws which are technically part of our exclusive federal jurisdiction's criminal laws.

You know what annoys me. The putz will go on and on how Israel discriminates against Muslim Israelis while knowing Arabic is an official language of Israel and Israeli Muslims can opt out and go to government funded Muslim schools something no Jew or Christian or non Muslim has a right to in sharia law nations.

Rue · July 19, 2013

bleeding heart, on 19 Jul 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

First of all, I have no idea why you believe I'm gay, and why you think I "hide behind [my] gay status," which does not in fact exist; nor do I know why your mistaking my sexual preference has you so vexed.

Second, I don't deny collective Jewish identity, and I'm not an anti-Semite. You're the one making the awful allegation, so the onus is on you to cite instances of my anti-Semitism; and to cite where I "deny [your] collective identity"; and where I've even faintly hinted that the Jewish people are "uppity."

Your tantrum-throwing is one thing; your delusions--or outright dishonesty, in which you promiscuously toss about the "ant-semite" card where it most certainly does not belong--is another thing altogether.

We have long and often disagreed with one another, and have neither of us always been civil. But now you're determined, for some reason, to sink to depths you have normally and intentionally avoided. And that's too bad.

I respond on your level. Period. More to the point my words speak for themselves. Your accusing me of being anti gay as a form of debate speaks for itself. Your continuing attempt to suggest I accuse people unfairly of being anti-Semitic is b.s. I throw back the bigotry people throw out on this board about Jews couching it as being acceptable because they come up with this bs pretension its limited to only the Jews they do not approve of couching those Jews with the word "Zionist".

Hear it again. Take the word Zionist out and replace it with the word "uppity" or "Jew who does not know his/her place" because that is what it is code for.

I know my place. It is as a proud Canadian and Canadian foremost among all things, then as someone who believes Jews like all people including gays have the right to express ourselves as a collective.

You do not. Your words speak for themselves. Your double standard with H Jones speaks for itself.

Civil?

I am suppose to be civil with someone who has read my posts well enough to know I am not anti gay but if anything can't stand everyone equally? Civil to someone who tries to rationalize someone who came on this board justifying terrorism against Israel?

Civil? Gays want the exact same thing Jews have in Israel. They are very similar to us in existential expression. Very close. They answered the persecution by forming a proud collective identity no different then we did. I loath people who hate themselves for being gay the same way I loath Jews who hate themselves for being Jewish. We are born into our skins. We have nothing to apologize for and we need not apologize for wanting to express sufferage.

Gays were gassed along side us. That is good enough for me to share a bond with. Pink triangle, yellow star of David, close enough. Also I am very aware of the closeted gays in the Nazi party who incited the gassing of their fellow gays or hid their identities. I read history and learn how self loathing creates monsters.

Gays use art and humour so similar to Jews when expressing existential angst. It is not an accident gay and Jewish artists have collaborated so well. We have a link as to know what it is like to be universally disliked and neither of our collectives chooses to be victims.

Palestinians are not victims. They are a people struggling to express their collective identity and they will never emerge as a unified people until they can evolve past terrorism, violence and hatred of each other.

Both Israelis and Palestinians have the right to the same things-putting that in practice is difficult because both factions are riddle with different groups within their communities who still do not get along.

Both Israel and Palestinians have communities that are not unified and range widely in ideology.

In the end the terrorism and violence H Jones tries to call for will not happen.

Neither people can wipe each other out. Neither people truly hates each other.

There are extremists in both camps but they are not and have never been nor will be the majority.

The anger and hatred H Jones tries to raise about Israel is transparent and at this point idiotic.

He has not a clue about Palestinians. It shows in each and everyone of their words.

I lived with and worked with Jordanians and Palestinians. They did not want me killed or Israel wiped out.

I have come face to face with those who did. I have come face to face with the aftermath of a terror attack.

I have come face to face with extremist Jews from Brooklyn in the Kache party on the West Bank that hated me as much as any Arab.

I know the IDF on the West Bank and how they are spit at by each side equally at times.

I fight the bs hatred of the H Jones site.

You find my words too strong? Tantrum you say/ Right-"tantrum" is a wonderful way to patronize me for standing up to you is it not? You can couch the reference I do not know my place with you right?

See my people rebelled from slavery. We have that rebellious streak in us. Its why Jamaicans understand us. Its why Yanks at a gut level support Israel.

Some people don't consider it to be a tantrum to take your patronizing words and shove them back in your face. Lol tantrum.Yassuh massuh az don't know how to behave nowz duz I. A should just roll my eyes and say az sorry massuh foh daring to speak back.

Right.

You want Aunt Jemima or Uncle Ben look some place else.

You claim you want civility? Is that what you call it when you ring your bell and expect me to bring you a Mint Julip? Hah.

Be careful. I will put the ice cubes in an uncivil place.

I have stated repeatedly criticizing Israeli policies is not anti-Semitic. What I have said however and do repeat yet again is to say we Jews can not express collectively is anti-Semitic. Criticizing Israeli policy is not the issue. delegitimizing the right of Jews to be a collective is not the same thing. Trying to suggest delegitimizing the right of Jews to have a state as being simple reasonable criticism of Israeli policies is a crock.

The EEC has the perfect right to say to Israel we won't consider goods from the West Bank part of Israel and excluded from the free trade agreement with Israel. They want to do that to assuage their guilt for the mess they created in the Middle East, go for it.

However the EEC has issued far more criticism then that demanding Israel sit down with terrorists while ignoring the violent acts of the terrorists while in their own nations they have renounced the exact same terror.

Europe would have a little bit more credibility if they did not have the blood of the holocaust and the blood of the puppet colonies they created including the tribal wars in the Middle East on their hands.

You may not think so, you can trot out the "some of my best friends are not Zionist Jews" shtik like H Jones or now try prop yourself as a reasonable critic of Israel but I will shove such patronizing, bigoted remarks back at you when you set up a double standard for Jews.

I have been a vocal critic of certain Israeli government policies on the West Bank stating I believe they are an obstacle to an overall comprehensive peace treaty but do not expect me to sit here and let anyone patronize my people and lecture them on what their place is anymore then I will sit here and agree with anyone who engages in negative stereotypes about all Palestinians.

Do not expect me to sit here and be lectured to about what Israel must do while the same geniuses remain silent to Palestinian Authority or Hamas violence and a refusal to acknowledge the collective identity of Jews which they still do with the not so disguised calls to rid the Middle East of any Jewishness. Save it.

No Israeli will play fool to you in that manner and if you think I am going to side with anyone calling on Israelis to expose themselves to extinction or a double standard think again. I will defend them the same way I would Palestinians in their pursuit of statehood.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Nothing in Zionism says we do not accept Muslims as equals or want to live side by side them in peace.

No it is not reasonable to debate as Mr. Abbas does that he only has to recognize Israel if it is not a Jewish state. That is crap.

It is also crap to come on this board As H Jones does and simply engage in one sided hateful rhetoric designed to reduce complex issues and conflicts between many peoples as simply Zionist Jew against the world.

Take that bigoted vision and shove it along with your "tantrum" comment. "Tantrum" is what I expect from someone who can't handle the heat and doesn't like the tone of the person who responds to him. Lol.

Because I am Zionist Jew does not make me an evil entity. No it does not mean I am a Jew who does not know his place in the world or hates anyone not Jewish.

In fact I am more critical of fellow Jews than any gentile. Familiarity breeds contempt and I have to be careful as all us minorities do not to become a self loathing twit.

I know exactly where my place is and not to worry its not in a club with you playing golf and smiling at me though gritted teeth while spewing platitudes of selectivity and looking like I farted every time I say oy. Spare me.

I will however sit across from some loud mouth Yank who hassles me about the Jays and thinks fretting about what people think of me as a Jew is a joke and I should learn to burp more often at the opportune time.

I doubt any Zionist Jew will swagger like a Yank but we agree with their USMC flag that says don't tread on us. Its a great motto. Only we say "never again".

In my world if anyone has a right to criticize Israeli policies, its Canada, Serbia, the Czech Republic, the US, Holland, countries or people who earned that right by being there for us.

The US does not cow tow to Israel and gets in many fights and those in the long run are constructive. Good friends do that.

Finally why are you so worried about being thought of as gay?

Quick to distance yourself from that identity aren't you?

Lol.

You could try my approach. If I think someone would hate me for being gay, I am the first to say I am gay.

I like being uppity.

Moses taught me that.

Its why Jamaicans get Jews. People who used to be slaves who threw the shackles away like being "uppity" or as the Jamaicans say 'feisty".

Edited July 19, 2013 by Rue

GostHacked · July 19, 2013

Rue, on 19 Jul 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

I respond on your level. Period. More to the point my words speak for themselves. Your accusing me of being anti gay as a form of debate speaks for itself. Your continuing attempt to suggest I accuse people unfairly of being anti-Semitic is b.s. I throw back the bigotry people throw out on this board about Jews couching it as being acceptable because they come up with this bs pretension its limited to only the Jews they do not approve of couching those Jews with the word "Zionist".

So using the word Zionist means we are closet anti-semites?

Quote

Hear it again. Take the word Zionist out and replace it with the word "uppity" or "Jew who does not know his/her place" because that is what it is code for.

I fail to see the anti-semitism when people point out the difference between a Jew an Israeli, and a Zionist.

Quote

You claim you want civility?

Civility works both ways. Either you feed into the crap or one can ignore it.

Quote

I will put the ice cubes in an uncivil place.

So removing the settlements would be a good way to help them achieve statehood. However, the Israeli government to spite of the UN's recognition of Palestine as a legitimate state, by issuing more permits to build in the occupied territory is not helpful.

Quote

I like being uppity.

Yes there is clear evidence of that. I had to delete half this tantrum.

Quote

Its why Jamaicans get Jews. People who used to be slaves who threw the shackles away like being "uppity" or as the Jamaicans say 'feisty".

So Jews are like Gay Jamaican Slaves?

bleeding heart · July 19, 2013

I respond on your level. Period. More to the point my words speak for themselves. Your accusing me of being anti gay as a form of debate speaks for itself. Your continuing attempt to suggest I accuse people unfairly of being anti-Semitic is b.s. I throw back the bigotry people throw out on this board about Jews couching it as being acceptable because they come up with this bs pretension its limited to only the Jews they do not approve of couching those Jews with the word "Zionist".

Hear it again. Take the word Zionist out and replace it with the word "uppity" or "Jew who does not know his/her place" because that is what it is code for.

I know my place. It is as a proud Canadian and Canadian foremost among all things, then as someone who believes Jews like all people including gays have the right to express ourselves as a collective.

You do not. Your words speak for themselves. Your double standard with H Jones speaks for itself.

Civil?

I am suppose to be civil with someone who has read my posts well enough to know I am not anti gay but if anything can't stand everyone equally? Civil to someone who tries to rationalize someone who came on this board justifying terrorism against Israel?

Civil? Gays want the exact same thing Jews have in Israel. They are very similar to us in existential expression. Very close. They answered the persecution by forming a proud collective identity no different then we did. I loath people who hate themselves for being gay the same way I loath Jews who hate themselves for being Jewish. We are born into our skins. We have nothing to apologize for and we need not apologize for wanting to express sufferage.

Gays were gassed along side us. That is good enough for me to share a bond with. Pink triangle, yellow star of David, close enough. Also I am very aware of the closeted gays in the Nazi party who incited the gassing of their fellow gays or hid their identities. I read history and learn how self loathing creates monsters.

Gays use art and humour so similar to Jews when expressing existential angst. It is not an accident gay and Jewish artists have collaborated so well. We have a link as to know what it is like to be universally disliked and neither of our collectives chooses to be victims.

Palestinians are not victims. They are a people struggling to express their collective identity and they will never emerge as a unified people until they can evolve past terrorism, violence and hatred of each other.

Both Israelis and Palestinians have the right to the same things-putting that in practice is difficult because both factions are riddle with different groups within their communities who still do not get along.

Both Israel and Palestinians have communities that are not unified and range widely in ideology.

In the end the terrorism and violence H Jones tries to call for will not happen.

Neither people can wipe each other out. Neither people truly hates each other.

There are extremists in both camps but they are not and have never been nor will be the majority.

The anger and hatred H Jones tries to raise about Israel is transparent and at this point idiotic.

He has not a clue about Palestinians. It shows in each and everyone of their words.

I lived with and worked with Jordanians and Palestinians. They did not want me killed or Israel wiped out.

I have come face to face with those who did. I have come face to face with the aftermath of a terror attack.

I have come face to face with extremist Jews from Brooklyn in the Kache party on the West Bank that hated me as much as any Arab.

I know the IDF on the West Bank and how they are spit at by each side equally at times.

I fight the bs hatred of the H Jones site.

You find my words too strong? Tantrum you say/ Right-"tantrum" is a wonderful way to patronize me for standing up to you is it not? You can couch the reference I do not know my place with you right?

See my people rebelled from slavery. We have that rebellious streak in us. Its why Jamaicans understand us. Its why Yanks at a gut level support Israel.

Some people don't consider it to be a tantrum to take your patronizing words and shove them back in your face. Lol tantrum.Yassuh massuh az don't know how to behave nowz duz I. A should just roll my eyes and say az sorry massuh foh daring to speak back.

Right.

You want Aunt Jemima or Uncle Ben look some place else.

You claim you want civility? Is that what you call it when you ring your bell and expect me to bring you a Mint Julip? Hah.

Be careful. I will put the ice cubes in an uncivil place.

I have stated repeatedly criticizing Israeli policies is not anti-Semitic. What I have said however and do repeat yet again is to say we Jews can not express collectively is anti-Semitic. Criticizing Israeli policy is not the issue. delegitimizing the right of Jews to be a collective is not the same thing. Trying to suggest delegitimizing the right of Jews to have a state as being simple reasonable criticism of Israeli policies is a crock.

The EEC has the perfect right to say to Israel we won't consider goods from the West Bank part of Israel and excluded from the free trade agreement with Israel. They want to do that to assuage their guilt for the mess they created in the Middle East, go for it.

However the EEC has issued far more criticism then that demanding Israel sit down with terrorists while ignoring the violent acts of the terrorists while in their own nations they have renounced the exact same terror.

Europe would have a little bit more credibility if they did not have the blood of the holocaust and the blood of the puppet colonies they created including the tribal wars in the Middle East on their hands.

You may not think so, you can trot out the "some of my best friends are not Zionist Jews" shtik like H Jones or now try prop yourself as a reasonable critic of Israel but I will shove such patronizing, bigoted remarks back at you when you set up a double standard for Jews.

I have been a vocal critic of certain Israeli government policies on the West Bank stating I believe they are an obstacle to an overall comprehensive peace treaty but do not expect me to sit here and let anyone patronize my people and lecture them on what their place is anymore then I will sit here and agree with anyone who engages in negative stereotypes about all Palestinians.

Do not expect me to sit here and be lectured to about what Israel must do while the same geniuses remain silent to Palestinian Authority or Hamas violence and a refusal to acknowledge the collective identity of Jews which they still do with the not so disguised calls to rid the Middle East of any Jewishness. Save it.

No Israeli will play fool to you in that manner and if you think I am going to side with anyone calling on Israelis to expose themselves to extinction or a double standard think again. I will defend them the same way I would Palestinians in their pursuit of statehood.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Nothing in Zionism says we do not accept Muslims as equals or want to live side by side them in peace.

No it is not reasonable to debate as Mr. Abbas does that he only has to recognize Israel if it is not a Jewish state. That is crap.

It is also crap to come on this board As H Jones does and simply engage in one sided hateful rhetoric designed to reduce complex issues and conflicts between many peoples as simply Zionist Jew against the world.

Take that bigoted vision and shove it along with your "tantrum" comment. "Tantrum" is what I expect from someone who can't handle the heat and doesn't like the tone of the person who responds to him. Lol.

Because I am Zionist Jew does not make me an evil entity. No it does not mean I am a Jew who does not know his place in the world or hates anyone not Jewish.

In fact I am more critical of fellow Jews than any gentile. Familiarity breeds contempt and I have to be careful as all us minorities do not to become a self loathing twit.

I know exactly where my place is and not to worry its not in a club with you playing golf and smiling at me though gritted teeth while spewing platitudes of selectivity and looking like I farted every time I say oy. Spare me.

I will however sit across from some loud mouth Yank who hassles me about the Jays and thinks fretting about what people think of me as a Jew is a joke and I should learn to burp more often at the opportune time.

I doubt any Zionist Jew will swagger like a Yank but we agree with their USMC flag that says don't tread on us. Its a great motto. Only we say "never again".

In my world if anyone has a right to criticize Israeli policies, its Canada, Serbia, the Czech Republic, the US, Holland, countries or people who earned that right by being there for us.

The US does not cow tow to Israel and gets in many fights and those in the long run are constructive. Good friends do that.

Finally why are you so worried about being thought of as gay?

Quick to distance yourself from that identity aren't you?

Lol.

You could try my approach. If I think someone would hate me for being gay, I am the first to say I am gay.

I like being uppity.

Moses taught me that.

Its why Jamaicans get Jews. People who used to be slaves who threw the shackles away like being "uppity" or as the Jamaicans say 'feisty".

Ok, then let's cover a couple of the salient points that have been going back and forth.

1. I apologize for mischaracterizing you as some sort of homophobe. It seems clear enough that I was in error.

2. I have never, not a single time in my entire posting history, criticized Zionism. I'm not anti-Zionism. I challenge you to find a single instance. I can't imagine where you have gotten this....as you have noted before that it is not my shtick in any way.

3. I was not defending Hudson Jones, about whom I know nothing beyond your opinion of him; I was remarking (including with my error, as stated) on your characterization of his identity. That I may well have misread you is not a defense of hatred for the Jews. Surely.

4. This was 100% unrelated to any notions of Jewish identity....obviously.

5. Crucially, my disagreements with you have nothing, nothing whatsoever, to do with any notion of "uppity Jews." When I disagree with you, plainly I am not criticizing the Jewish people or any notion of "collective identity...and I would have thought this obvious enough. To me, you are just another poster. That's not an insult...more to the point, it's not anti-Semitic.

I hope you feel able to retract your disgusting slur, as I have my own.

So while we will never be in complete agreement, and there's no reason that we should...the twin, bidirectional accusations of homophobia and Jew-hatred are, I hope we can agree, fallacious and unfair, and we can next time move on to more honest arguments.

Edited July 19, 2013 by bleeding heart

July 19, 2013

Speaking of slurs, hudson Jones has referred to Zionists as "savage," "racist," and "sneaky;" the Zionist movement as "an ugly colonist movement," "sneaky, lying, racist" and "ill;" and their interests as "blood thirsty." Disagree with him, and he calls you a Zionist - so really, what is he saying? <_< Personally, I know exactly what he's saying when he calls me a "hard core Zionist."