Do you really believe anything Bush says?

[Slavik44]

Do you know how stupid you sound?

What if a soldier or Marine came to your house in Canada, beat up your mom, your sister, girlfriend, wife, your dog... And then shanked you and your dad in the ass with a K-bar? What would you do? Can't shoot us... You don't have a right to bear arms! Can't defend yourself, because Canadians are pacifists! Anarchists are too dumb to know what to do... So tell me Hugo. I already told you what I would do, and that your statement would not apply to Soldiers or Marines.

You're a joke Hugo... A Canadian Joke! You have no friends because of your anti-social behavior, no support for anarchy, you can't debate, or even insult me! But I give you "kudos" for trying... a valiant endeavor... (yeah right!)

He doesn't sound as stupid as you do m8.

[BigDookie6]

Alas! Regardless of their doom,

The little victims play!

No sense have they of ills to come

Nor care beyond today.

The meaning of ignorance is bliss is not what most people think it means.

The head in the sand attitude of BD6 is closer to Gray's thought of what the future would bring to the, as yet, uneducated and immature youngsters.

Maybe it would be more comfortable to believe that Dubbya will protect him than face the nightmare scenario for America and the world that his reelection may bring.

Enlighten me Eureka... Please! Without a poem or political philosophy.

The head in the sand attitude of BD6 is closer to Gray's thought of what the future would bring to the, as yet, uneducated and immature youngsters.

Broke off in a little tangent from this thread...

Maybe it would be more comfortable to believe that Dubbya will protect him than face the nightmare scenario for America and the world that his reelection may bring.

And what would that be? Because we're human, would you still love us?

[Guest eureka]

Simple! You have had a taste of what this administration can do to you yet you still play games. You ignore the devastation that may be in your future with a more of the same government.

Iraq will only get worse: terrorism is growing. You seem to think that 9/11 was the terror and you have only to try to prevent a repeat on home ground. But terrorism is spread around the world and you are just one target.

[BigDookie6]

Simple! You have had a taste of what this administration can do to you yet you still play games. You ignore the devastation that may be in your future with a more of the same government.

Iraq will only get worse: terrorism is growing. You seem to think that 9/11 was the terror and you have only to try to prevent a repeat on home ground. But terrorism is spread around the world and you are just one target.

You're not a prophet, but feel free to predict our future all you want. You underestimate Americans! Remember, we're of every nationality... That says a lot and how far we've come!

You're right, Iraq is getting worse. But we're not going to ignore terrorism, regardless how far across the world it is spread, and 9/11 was our wakeup call! This is a new age, new kind of war. And America's not the only one in it. There is no manual, history or guidelines on how to fight back against terrorism, and it is obviously tough. I hope we are not still in Iraq 10 years from now, but am curious to see how the world will have changed, and the position on global terrorism. It's minds like yours Eureka that the terrorists will defeat! And your way of thinking, blaming is how they want you to think.

[Hugo]

I think you are very well educated, but lack the ability to reason.

Animals can reason, I think you give me far too little credit. I can reason perfectly well, and it's my opinion that you are just suffering a little cognitive dissonance. Be honest, is this the first time you have come across somebody with my opinions?

Your lack of reasoning would lead me to believe that I am unable to prove my military service. What else do you want?

I want you to drop the issue. As I said, all you can prove here is your abilities as a debater, so stick to that. I would not divulge my profession, firstly because it's a false appeal to authority, and secondly, because I couldn't prove it anyway.

Really? I see it everyday. In old people especially (not all, but some). They're happy, go-lucky all the time.

That isn't the same thing. You said that wisdom can be found in ignorance, and then gave me an example of how happiness can be found in ignorance. Wisdom is not happiness, nor does wisdom necessarily coincide with happiness.

[Cartman]

It was obvious that Hugo was saying that one's career is irrelevant on a posting board. While I disagree with a lot of what Hugo says, at least s/he thinks through problems and debates them in a civil fashion in my experience.

The hatred in your post BD6 is simply sickening and demonstrates weakness and fear.

Ironically, assuming that you are a member of the military and hold such beliefs, YOU HAVE ACTUALLY PROVED MANY OF HUGO'S POINTS about coercion!!

[Guest eureka]

You may want to consider your understanding of Americans as coming from many nations. I agree that they do. However, is not part of the abuses under the Patriot Act the reality that this administration is not treating all Americans equally. Some of those nationalities are the target of the authorities. The Act allows and encourages this without due process.

I do disagree that 9/11 was a "wake-up" call to America. It merely provided the excuse that the proponents of the "New American Century" wanted to go on their quest for Global hegemony.

A real war on terror would have seen the an appeal to international cooperation. No other way can this war be won.

[BigDookie6]

Animals can reason, I think you give me far too little credit. I can reason perfectly well, and it's my opinion that you are just suffering a little cognitive dissonance. Be honest, is this the first time you have come across somebody with my opinions?

As I said before... I think you are well educated, and read a lot, but you do not practically apply what you know, read, see on T.V. etc. to everyday life. Perception. Being as smart as you seem, could you make a decision based on intutition? It's easy to criticize me (I admit, I am not as smart as you) or government, because you are not apart of it, making decisions based on what you know, etc. (Sort of like "Monday Night Quarterbacking") Easy to break down our politics, policies, history, people and underestimate because you do not live under the same freedom and liberties we sometimes take for granted.

I've come across people who think anarchy is the best way, but could not explain or debate quite as well as you. (I'm complimenting you)

Eureka wrote:

You may want to consider your understanding of Americans as coming from many nations. I agree that they do. However, is not part of the abuses under the Patriot Act the reality that this administration is not treating all Americans equally. Some of those nationalities are the target of the authorities. The Act allows and encourages this without due process.

How is the PA not treating all Americans equally? Just provide one example.... Do not explain the PA to me, or who's going to appeal or did appeal. Who did it abuse?

Doesn't it make sense that if a crime was committed by a white, black, arab, whatever nationality... To inform law enforcement on the description/profile.... These are tools to help prevent crime, not violate one's civil rights! It's foolish to have police, FBI or any other agency look for a suspect, and reprt, "We're looking for a human, 6 ft. 200lbs, dark hair" Is it black, brown, white, red?? "We cannot tell you, that's a violation of civil rights." Next people like you and ACLU are going to complain of gender discrimination!

[Hugo]

I think you are well educated, and read a lot, but you do not practically apply what you know, read, see on T.V. etc. to everyday life.

I think you are making another ad hominem argument. You have no evidence that I'm not intuitive or that I don't apply my knowledge properly, I think you'd just like to believe that because you probably have a mental image of me as some book-smart intellectual without any aptitude for "real life" and, at the risk of sounding insulting, you want to maintain that image because it allows you to retain some sense of superiorty over me - "well, he may be book-smart, but he ain't street-smart." If you are a Marine, then you've been conditioned to arrogance and the conviction of your own superiority.

[BigDookie6]

I think you are making another ad hominem argument. You have no evidence that I'm not intuitive or that I don't apply my knowledge properly, I think you'd just like to believe that because you probably have a mental image of me as some book-smart intellectual without any aptitude for "real life" and, at the risk of sounding insulting, you want to maintain that image because it allows you to retain some sense of superiorty over me - "well, he may be book-smart, but he ain't street-smart." If you are a Marine, then you've been conditioned to arrogance and the conviction of your own superiority.

You didn't make a very good argument for yourself. Most people who are into anarchy are very book smart (philosophy, fantasy, some literature), into the goth thing, anti-social, which leads me to believe that you have no social life, except for your (few) buddies who agree with you. Big fish in a small pond! I am not attacking you, lets be clear on this. And am not being superior... Already admitted you are probably smarter than I, you just lack experience in many things. Marine Corps did not make me superior, just confident! I am secure with myself and beliefs, which is why you are unconvincing. I do not need rhetorical reasons or "elitist" attitude to tell me what is wrong with my country or government. We make mistakes; always have, always will, but you or anyone else has yet to convince me that today (post 9/11) that my country and govt. are committing atrocities, such as terrorism across the world, because of our policies, rather than "being mad" at the current administration. I stand by being a nationalist, and have always admitted when our country is wrong.

[Hugo]

You didn't make a very good argument for yourself. Most people who are into anarchy are very book smart (philosophy, fantasy, some literature), into the goth thing, anti-social, which leads me to believe that you have no social life, except for your (few) buddies who agree with you.

You see, you're back at it again. It's pointless to respond to any of your allegations because I cannot disprove any of it on this forum. I will, however, say that it's a sign of a very weak argument when you spend more time insulting your opponent than refuting his points.

[BigDookie6]

You didn't make a very good argument for yourself. Most people who are into anarchy are very book smart (philosophy, fantasy, some literature), into the goth thing, anti-social, which leads me to believe that you have no social life, except for your (few) buddies who agree with you.

You see, you're back at it again. It's pointless to respond to any of your allegations because I cannot disprove any of it on this forum. I will, however, say that it's a sign of a very weak argument when you spend more time insulting your opponent than refuting his points.

Why did you leave out that I was clearly not insulting you in any way? This is your problem, Hugo: Word Manipulation! You just "spun" what I was saying! Now you're losing all credibility because you distorted what I said, to mislead other readers. Go back to listening to your KMFDM cd's!

[Guest eureka]

Wouldyou find the National Lawyers Guild a credible critic of the Patriot Act? Read its report issued Last August. The title is "The Assault on Free Speech,Public Assembly, and Dissent." I don't have a link but I do have some material on it.

The Patriot Act enables the 1st., 4th., 5th.,6th., and 14th. Amendments to be declared inoperative is a short summary. You may see that it does not criticize the Patriot Act only but also the amendments to other legal protections for civil liberties. It is a criticism of the Administration's distortion of the Justice system.

[Hugo]

BD6, I really don't care what you think of my taste in music, number of friends, social life, hobbies and interests, children, family, pets, favourite colour, shoe size, zodiac sign, etc. etc. Either get back to debating the topic, or get lost.

[BigDookie6]

BD6, I really don't care what you think of my taste in music, number of friends, social life, hobbies and interests, children, family, pets, favourite colour, shoe size, zodiac sign, etc. etc. Either get back to debating the topic, or get lost.

It's kind of hard to debate you when your reply dostorts everything I say! Instead of debating, you whine about how inferior I make you feel. Or:

ad hominem argument

, or:

you want to maintain that image because it allows you to retain some sense of superiorty over me

Whatever chief.... You said, and felt this; not me. I really did not think that you were debating... You were too busy trying to correct my English and show that you could speak Latin (which had nothing to do with what we were discussing.) Anytime you want to stick to the subject! Or check the reply under Thread: Patriot Act and the ACLU

[BigDookie6]

Wouldyou find the National Lawyers Guild a credible critic of the Patriot Act? Read its report issued Last August. The title is "The Assault on Free Speech,Public Assembly, and Dissent." I don't have a link but I do have some material on it.

The Patriot Act enables the 1st., 4th., 5th.,6th., and 14th. Amendments to be declared inoperative is a short summary. You may see that it does not criticize the Patriot Act only but also the amendments to other legal protections for civil liberties. It is a criticism of the Administration's distortion of the Justice system.

They did not like the way it was written up, and were affraid of how it may be applied. Which is fine... Needs to be revised and "fine tuned" for complete clarification. Still has not violated anyone's civil rights!

[takeanumber]

Still has not violated anyone's civil rights!

Says you.

Let's grab you off the streets for being the wrong colour, strip you naked, shove a rubber glove up your ass, and detain you for 48 hours without sleep, a lawyer, or charge, and see how you like it.

I'm sure you're going to argue now that such treatment is not a violation of civil rights, hmmm?

Or are you going to deny that that doesn't happen?

Which is it?

If you don't have an answer, just avoid it.

[BigDookie6]

Says you.

Let's grab you off the streets for being the wrong colour, strip you naked, shove a rubber glove up your ass, and detain you for 48 hours without sleep, a lawyer, or charge, and see how you like it.

I'm sure you're going to argue now that such treatment is not a violation of civil rights, hmmm?

Or are you going to deny that that doesn't happen?

Which is it?

If you don't have an answer, just avoid it.

If you're speaking from experience; how sad and wrong! I'd say you have a pretty good lawsuit!

I'm not going to deny that it never happens, and I would say it is very rare. I would also add that it was probably happening more often in certain areas in the past (L.A. , Watts... Southern states) But society is smarter now. Police are highly scrutinized and monitored, and if that kind of stuff does happen, it's in the news, investigated and the law is hammering down on law enforcement.

[Black Dog]

I'm not going to deny that it never happens, and I would say it is very rare. I would also add that it was probably happening more often in certain areas in the past (L.A. , Watts... Southern states) But society is smarter now. Police are highly scrutinized and monitored, and if that kind of stuff does happen, it's in the news, investigated and the law is hammering down on law enforcement

I completely disagree. Police brutality is systematic and widespread.

Sheilded from justice: a Human Rights Watch report

Police abuse remains one of the most serious and divisive human rights violations in the United States. The excessive use of force by police officers, including unjustified shootings, severe beatings, fatal chokings, and rough treatment, persists because overwhelming barriers to accountability make it possible for officers who commit human rights violations to escape due punishment and often to repeat their offenses.1 Police or public officials greet each new report of brutality with denials or explain that the act was an aberration, while the administrative and criminal systems that should deter these abuses by holding officers accountable instead virtually guarantee them impunity.

...

Our investigation found that police brutality is persistent in all of these cities; that systems to deal with abuse have had similar failings in all the cities; and that, in each city examined, complainants face enormous barriers in seeking administrative punishment or criminal prosecution of officers who have committed human rights violations. Despite claims to the contrary from city officials where abuses have become scandals in the media, efforts to make meaningful reforms have fallen short.

Stop police brutality

[BigDookie6]

I stand corrected! Seems to be going on a lot. All over the world.

I would hope that every community (here in the U.S; not sure how they would do it in other countries) contact their local and State goverment to push for some sort of civilian review of police departments/ officers. (Sounds like Internal Affairs isn't doing their job or understaffed) Otherwise we are leaving it up to individual departments/ agencies, supervisors, etc. who are not holding individuals accountable, no disciplinary action, dismissal, etc.

This is the problem we have here in the U.S. (Goes for politics too) Americans are not very pro-active in making govt. work for them.

[g_bambino]

I bet if I called the Queen a whore (In Canada or England) I'd be beat down or going to jail! But anywhere here in the U.S. I am free to call Bush or any other President or any part the government whatever I want, freely and criticize accordingly!

There's a whole load of fallicious, meaningless, and unfounded crap coming out of this guy... but this has got to be up there with the worst of it.

BigDookie6-- like many of your other assumptions, this one displays an alarming amount of ignorance. Canada is a democratic country, and we have such a thing as free speech; its guaranteed in our constitution. You may openly criticize the Queen, or our constitutional monarchy, if you wish (and believe me, many do)-- the Crown itself allows us this right! But, like in many other countries, you must be careful how you criticize. The only thing you might end up with if you publicly called the Queen a whore, without proof to back it up, is a lawsuit for slander slapped firmly on your ass (and maybe a good slap on the ass from Her Majesty is just what you need! ).

[takeanumber]

Well, it goes back to Bush's Blackwhite-ness.

He'll argue that we're fighting for freedom, while trampling on civil liberties.

He'll argue that we're fighting the terrorists, while he and his father colludes with the Saudi's and the terrorists.

He'll argue that the economy is getting stronger, when all the evidence points to the contrary.

If Bush is reelected, the middle class should really be weary. The changes to the tax code, the implementation of a draft, and the continuation of lax corporate laws is going to completely screw them.

[BigDookie6]

I bet if I called the Queen a whore (In Canada or England) I'd be beat down or going to jail! But anywhere here in the U.S. I am free to call Bush or any other President or any part the government whatever I want, freely and criticize accordingly!

There's a whole load of fallicious, meaningless, and unfounded crap coming out of this guy... but this has got to be up there with the worst of it.

BigDookie6-- like many of your other assumptions, this one displays an alarming amount of ignorance. Canada is a democratic country, and we have such a thing as free speech; its guaranteed in our constitution. You may openly criticize the Queen, or our constitutional monarchy, if you wish (and believe me, many do)-- the Crown itself allows us this right! But, like in many other countries, you must be careful how you criticize. The only thing you might end up with if you publicly called the Queen a whore, without proof to back it up, is a lawsuit for slander slapped firmly on your ass (and maybe a good slap on the ass from Her Majesty is just what you need! ).

What's your argument?

[BigDookie6]

Well, it goes back to Bush's Blackwhite-ness.

He'll argue that we're fighting for freedom, while trampling on civil liberties.

He'll argue that we're fighting the terrorists, while he and his father colludes with the Saudi's and the terrorists.

He'll argue that the economy is getting stronger, when all the evidence points to the contrary.

If Bush is reelected, the middle class should really be weary.  The changes to the tax code, the implementation of a draft, and the continuation of lax corporate laws is going to completely screw them.

I know he's "buddy, buddy" with the Saudi's, but what terrorists is he making deals with?

Does Wall Street believe that the economy is weakening? I'd believe them over what Bush says about it anyday!

What draft? Hopefully a draft for more air power! Upon his re-election, Bush orders our massive Air Force to start a bombing campaign on the Mid East (heavy, heavy bombs) Then we could let the ground troops clean up and do their job instead of being human shields. Then we could fly over Iran, & N. Korea and take out their nuclear sites, and not have to worry about an "election year"

[g_bambino]

What's your argument?

By saying that, in Canada, you'd "be beat down or going to jail" for calling the Queen a whore, while, in the U.S. you may openly insult and criticize the President without fear of incarceration and/or beatings, you're implying that the U.S. gives its citizens the right of free speech, whereas Canada tells its citizens to keep their mouths shut. In the simplest terms, the U.S. offers more freedom, at least in terms of speech, than Canada.

The truth of the matter, however, is that in both Canada and the U.S. free speech rights are almost identical. In Canada we may freely criticize our leaders, both royal and political, just as in the U.S. you may freely criticize your leaders. In Canada, if your public criticism is not founded on truth, and is merely an attempt to ruin a person's reputation, you will be charged with slander, just as in the U.S.

Thus, contrary to your statement, by law Canadians have the rights to freely express their opinions about the country's leaders, HM The Queen included.