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Do you really believe anything Bush says?


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Guest eureka

Busloads freed do not answer the wrongful detentions. They also do not free the hundreds in Guantamo and the thousands still in Iraqi detention who have not been charged with anything.

There is a price to be payed for freedom and, unfortunately it is a few of us on this site who are paying your price. That is the cost to us in headache remedies and our time in trying to get through to you how little you seem to be aware of your own lack of freedom and how your government is infringement of the world.

I do not care too much about what is happening on the american political scene either. Unfortunately, I cannot be silent when it affects the whole world negatively. Your governments actions are killing people the world over and they are also directly harming Canada and its economy and social programs. That makes your business my business.

When did yoi discover the merits of volunteerism as a military assett. It is not realloy since it tends not to give you the best or the brightest. Your commanders are also volunteers and they are not very apt or bright. Most countries have volunteer armies and always have. The draft in america has been used far more recently than in the other powers. One difference in the American forces is that yours seem to be made up of people who could not find work whereas in some more effective forces it is tradition that brings many to a military career.

Your pride in country is touching and evidence, in its manner of expression, that you are somewhat touched. It also goes before a fall, as Hugo pointed out. If pride is a blind patriotism, then it does not substantiate any quality worthy of praise. Be proud but look to your warts.

Your attitude to civil rights is what is so scary about America toda since it is shared by so many and evidenced in your acceptance of the greates intrusion on civil liberties since actual wartime in any democratic nation. One of the fundamental principles of democracy, for example, is that those who break the law do not lose their civil rights. They are entitled to due process and they are entitled to the presumption of innocence. Foreigners are also entitled to those same civilized observances.

Those are missing in America today. So also is your prized freedom of speech and ability to express dissent. The Bush administration is acting like an incipient Fascist government.

Why do I bother with this? I bother because I am of the view that my opinion will, if heard by one, spread to many more. I have had the experience of that in discussin sites on significant Canadian issues. Even to seeing phrases unique to me or to some other contributors appear in political and media statements. Big Brother may be watching in the US and interested parties monitor elsewhere.

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You call this democracy?

-In August 2003, the head of one of the biggest manufacturers of voting machines wrote a fundraising letter saying he is “committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year.” According to the Cleveland Plain Dealer, Walden O’Dell, CEO of Diebold INC., also “attended a strategy pow-wow with wealthy Bush benefactors—known as Rangers and Pioneers—at the president’s Crawford, Texas, ranch earlier this month.” The next week, he invited guests to a $1,000-a-plate fundraiser for the Ohio GOP at his mansion in the Cleveland suburbs. This is the man whose machines have no paper trail and will be used by at least 8 million voters in the upcoming election.

-In June 2004, Florida Gov. Jeb Bush and his political appointees used the guise of clearing felons off voter rolls to hide an attempt to disenfranchise 48,000 traditionally Democratic voters. The list, which was disproportionately African-American, was rife with inaccuracies. Additionally, in a state with a heavily Republican Cuban population, a technical error caused the names of thousands of Hispanic felons to be excluded from the list.The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights has asked the Department of Justice to investigate.

-In July, a top GOP official in Michigan gave voice to Republican efforts to squelch minority voter turnout. State Rep. John Pappageorge said, “If we do not suppress the Detroit vote, we’re going to have a tough time in this election.” What did he mean? While Michigan is predominantly white (78 percent), Detroit has an overwhelmingly minority population (88 percent). This strategy is no accident: Polls show that more than four in five blacks believe Bush did not legitimately win the election and two-thirds think deliberate attempts were made to prevent black voters’ ballots from being counted.

-Also in July, the Miami Herald found the Republican Party staking out naturalization ceremonies for new immigrants to trick them into registering Republican. Specifically, GOP operatives have been handing out voter registration forms to new citizens just moments after being sworn in by the U.S. government with the party affiliation box already checked Republican. Once registered, the GOP can target mailing and other campaign outreach to those voters.

-In August, Jeb Bush was at it again—this time having his political appointees at a key county election board hire a law firm with direct connections to the Bush-Cheney campaign. Though the Broward County Elections Board is supposed to be nonpartisan, Bush’s official there hired the law firm Blosser & Sayfie. James Blosser is a top fundraiser for the Bush-Cheney campaign, and Justin Sayfie is co-chairman of the Bush-Cheney campaign in Broward County. The firm, which was fired after public outrage, was to represent the county in legal challenges should another election debacle occur.

Outrageous, certainly, but at least we have our ability to freely protest against them without being harassed, right? Wrong. The New York Times reports that the FBI has “contacted” a number of people who have organized political demonstrations, forcing some to appear before a grand jury to disclose what they know of protest plans. Want to take your complaint to the top? Think again. The Albuquerque Journal reports that those who wanted to attend a speech by Cheney were refused at the door unless they signed a pledge to vote GOP in November. Meanwhile, the Washington Post reported that the Secret Service, led by the president’s top personal aide, accosted peaceful AIDS demonstrators during a Bush speech last month. Demonstrators were “shoved and pulled from the room—some by their hair, one by her bra straps—and then arrested for disorderly conduct and detained.”

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I can talk about whatever I want to. And frankly, my end of the discussion is of much higher quality than yours.

You and your 1%... Keep living you oppressed lifestyle! You have yet to say anything of high quality, and the more you reply

the worse you sound! You & Blackie...

Historical anarchy has always been ended by foreign military force.

And your point?

Let's see, the USA has very extensive territory, comprises a number of territories or nations (Guantanamo, Puerto Rico, etc), and is ruled by a single supreme authority.

Or was the British Empire not really an empire either?

(Yawwwnnnn....) Thanks for the definition. Now that I know what an empire is, I stand by what I said! Still no empire!

Sure. In early April of this year, the ACLU filed suit challenging parts of the Patriot Act, but under the Patriot Act, the ACLU isn't allowed to discuss the lawsuit they filed.

I'll ask again... Can you find me one example? This is not an example of the PA infringing on anyone's civil rights.

What law? The law that says you have to wear a motorcyle helmet? That you have to have a government permit to be a taxi driver or a landscaper?

I can 99.9% guarantee you that the Patriot Act does not apply to your examples of misdemeanors!

You've been told that freedom has a price, and you've been duped into it. Anyone who demands you pay them a price for your freedom is not a protector but an extortionist.

Majority of us like order, which is why you and your anarchy of 1% like chaos!

Now on to Blacki...

I think it has more to do with the simple fact that you don't know the difference.

The difference of personal opinion!

Ah yes, a sure way to build trust, win hearts and minds and show the Iraqi people you're there to help them build a democracy. If attitudes and intellects like yours are common, it's no wonder you've cocked up Iraq.

If you were to show me something of millions and millions of Iraqi's disputing the cause, rather than the few hundred or 1,000 you see on TV, then maybe I would have a change of attitude. But that is not the case!

Nope. There's a little thing called the Constitution which theoretically limits the states ability to act against its own citizens. Unfortunately, things like the Patriot Act are chipping away at those protections while idiots like you are too busy filling your head with the latest wisdom from Bill O'Reilly.

Like I asked Hugo... Show me! Hey Blackie? We finally agree on something... I can't stand O'reilly either :D

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You call "In The Times" a legitimate news source?

To be fair, I read the article...

1.) Regardless of all the press about the 2000 electorial mess in Florida, It has for the longest time been a Republican state! Bush would've won anyway! If it were a split state or Dem state, then it would have been very suspicious!

2.) Every state votes whether we use traditional voting polls or machines. (Dems & Rep.)

3.)

In June 2004, Florida Gov. Jeb Bush and his political appointees used the guise of clearing felons off voter rolls to hide an attempt to disenfranchise 48,000 traditionally Democratic voters.

Unlike Canada, it is illegal for felons to vote! And we like that!

4.)

While Michigan is predominantly white (78 percent), Detroit has an overwhelmingly minority population (88 percent). This strategy is no accident: Polls show that more than four in five blacks believe Bush did not legitimately win the election and two-thirds think deliberate attempts were made to prevent black voters’ ballots from being counted.

Keyword is "think"... Has this been proven, or are we speculating again, because we hate Bush?

4.)

Also in July, the Miami Herald found the Republican Party staking out naturalization ceremonies for new immigrants to trick them into registering Republican. Specifically, GOP operatives have been handing out voter registration forms to new citizens just moments after being sworn in by the U.S. government with the party affiliation box already checked Republican. Once registered, the GOP can target mailing and other campaign outreach to those voters.

Dems started this during the civil war, even prior... About time Republicans started to catch on. We could just close our boarders, but that would give you something other to bitch about. Good political tactics whether you agree or not.

5.)

In August, Jeb Bush was at it again—this time having his political appointees at a key county election board hire a law firm with direct connections to the Bush-Cheney campaign. Though the Broward County Elections Board is supposed to be nonpartisan, Bush’s official there hired the law firm Blosser & Sayfie. James Blosser is a top fundraiser for the Bush-Cheney campaign, and Justin Sayfie is co-chairman of the Bush-Cheney campaign in Broward County. The firm, which was fired after public outrage, was to represent the county in legal challenges should another election debacle occur.

What law firm is really non-partisan? I don't blame Bush for hiring them.... The Lawyers Association (Firm/Guild) has always been "pro Democrat"... They're backing Kerry as we speak! Why would a Republican hire a pro Democratic organization, when they have shown complete partisan? This is common sense Blackie! If you're so smart, why aren't you asking yourself these questions?

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Ah yes, a sure way to build trust, win hearts and minds and show the Iraqi people you're there to help them build a democracy. If attitudes and intellects like yours are common, it's no wonder you've cocked up Iraq.

If you were to show me something of millions and millions of Iraqi's disputing the cause, rather than the few hundred or 1,000 you see on TV, then maybe I would have a change of attitude. But that is not the case!

So just how many dead Americans and dead Iraqis will it take for you to see that your government messed up?

Because anyone with even the most tenuous grasp of the situation can see it's turned into a imbroglio.

The simple fact that the insurgency not only continues to exist, but is also growing, shows that it is finding plenty of recruits and support from Iraqis.

I'll ask again... Can you find me one example? This is not an example of the PA infringing on anyone's civil rights.

Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act vastly expands the power of FBI agents to secretly obtain records and personal belongings of innocent people in the United States, including citizens and permanent residents. Post-Patriot Act, third-party holders of your financial, library, travel, video rental, phone, medical, church, synagogue, and mosque records can be searched without your knowledge or consent, providing the government says it's trying to protect against terrorism. The person made to turn over the records is gagged and cannot disclose the search to anyone.

Under PA Section 218, secret searches can be authorized by a secret court without public knowledge or Department of Justice accountability, so long as the government can allege there is any foreign intelligence basis for the search.

Section 213 extends "sneak-and-peek" authority from FISA (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act),searches to any criminal search. This allows for secret searches of your home and property without prior notice.

Section 214 makes the FISA pen register/trap-and-trace (Pen registers" ascertain phone numbers dialed from a suspect's telephone; "Trap and trace" devices monitor the source of all incoming calls.) power available in both criminal and foreign intelligence investigations, so long as the government merely certifies that the information obtained would be "relevant to an ongoing investigation." The probable-cause requirement in criminal cases is gone.

Section 206 authorizes roving wiretaps: taps specific to no single phone or computer but to every phone or computer the target may use.

Section 505 authorizes the attorney general or a delegate to compel holders of your personal records to turn them over to the government, simply by writing a "national security" letter.

Scared yet?

The big concerns with the PATRIOT Acts are that the state will use the war on terror to gut the warrant requirement or undermine the First Amendment.

The best check on such encroachments should be a free and objective judiciary. But many of the Patriot provisions do away with judicial oversight altogether, while others permit judges to act as rubber stamps in hearings where only the government side is represented.

The next best check on such encroachments is public scrutiny, but most Americans still do not believe that Patriot has in any way affected them. It's worth noting that many of these provisions and others are used frequently—even if details are blacked out. In most cases, you'd never even know if Patriot has been used against you.

1.) Regardless of all the press about the 2000 electorial mess in Florida, It has for the longest time been a Republican state! Bush would've won anyway! If it were a split state or Dem state, then it would have been very suspicious!

Since 1992, Florida is one of the most hotly contested states. That year, Bush Sr took it by a margin of 2 per. Clinton carried Florida in 1996 by 6 per cent. And Bush and Gore split the popular vote down the middle in 2000. So your assertion that Bush would have won anyway is false.

Unlike Canada, it is illegal for felons to vote! And we like that!

You obviously didn't read the relevant part: "The list, which was disproportionately African-American, was rife with inaccuracies. Additionally, in a state with a heavily Republican Cuban population, a technical error caused the names of thousands of Hispanic felons to be excluded from the list. The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights has asked the Department of Justice to investigate." "

Keyword is "think"... Has this been proven, or are we speculating again, because we hate Bush?

Again you miss the key point: "In July, a top GOP official in Michigan gave voice to Republican efforts to squelch minority voter turnout. State Rep. John Pappageorge said, “If we do not suppress the Detroit vote, we’re going to have a tough time in this election.""

Note he specifically said Detroit, not Michigan.

Dems started this during the civil war, even prior... About time Republicans started to catch on. We could just close our boarders, but that would give you something other to bitch about. Good political tactics whether you agree or not.

No, it's dirty and underhanded politics.

What law firm is really non-partisan? I don't blame Bush for hiring them.... The Lawyers Association (Firm/Guild) has always been "pro Democrat"... They're backing Kerry as we speak! Why would a Republican hire a pro Democratic organization, when they have shown complete partisan? This is common sense Blackie! If you're so smart, why aren't you asking yourself these questions?

Again, I'll walk you along in the vain hope that some of this might sink in:

"In August, Jeb Bush was at it again—this time having his political appointees at a key county election board hire a law firm with direct connections to the Bush-Cheney campaign. Though the Broward County Elections Board is supposed to be nonpartisan, Bush’s official there hired the law firm Blosser & Sayfie. James Blosser is a top fundraiser for the Bush-Cheney campaign, and Justin Sayfie is co-chairman of the Bush-Cheney campaign in Broward County. The firm, which was fired after public outrage, was to represent the county in legal challenges should another election debacle occur.

It's called "a conlict of interest", sunshine.

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Busloads freed do not answer the wrongful detentions. They also do not free the hundreds in Guantamo and the thousands still in Iraqi detention who have not been charged with anything.

You could be right. And I'm sure some are innocent, unfortunatley we are not taking that chance. Still doesn't mean we are above Intl. Law, or committing atrocities.

There is a price to be payed for freedom and, unfortunately it is a few of us on this site who are paying your price. That is the cost to us in headache remedies and our time in trying to get through to you how little you seem to be aware of your own lack of freedom and how your government is infringement of the world.

I can agree with you on this... I see everyday, how little the average American knows about his/her country, politics, taking advantage of what we have, and taking it for granted. But not all of us are like that. I've had the opportunity to travel through Europe, Asia, Mexico and always look forward to coming home. I've seen some "shitholes" and it is not because of American policy. We do not force any country to choose what government they want or continue to use. It is not America's fault that other governments do not provide ways to educate, employ, provide healthcare, capitalism, enterprise, social services, etc. Again, these people are coming or finding a way to us... Not the other way around. What does that tell you? Not that we're ugly, ignorant, uneducated Yanks... So far from the truth. How many different nationalities do we have?

When did yoi discover the merits of volunteerism as a military assett. It is not realloy since it tends not to give you the best or the brightest. Your commanders are also volunteers and they are not very apt or bright. Most countries have volunteer armies and always have. The draft in america has been used far more recently than in the other powers. One difference in the American forces is that yours seem to be made up of people who could not find work whereas in some more effective forces it is tradition that brings many to a military career.

Now I do take offence to this, being a Marine. When I first enlisted (1994) I scored very well on the ASVAB test The Marine Corps wanted me in intelligence, but I chose Infantry. They could not understand why someone with such a high score wanted to join the Infantry. Our commanders, must have a 4-year degree to enlist in "Officer

Candidates School." Most countries DO NOT have volunteer military! This is a fact. Do a little research and you will see that it is required for most male citizens in other countries to at least enlist in a 1-2 year term, upon turning 18 or 21. Plus they receive very little pay, and absolutlely NO benefits! (Not that we are getting much, but most of us didn't join for those reasons)

Work is work, whether it is in the military or not. (For a person who wants world peace, and to help the human race so much, regardless of creed, you have such disdain and condenscending attitude towards the military.) And we still do have families that follow military tradition and honor.

Your pride in country is touching and evidence, in its manner of expression, that you are somewhat touched. It also goes before a fall, as Hugo pointed out. If pride is a blind patriotism, then it does not substantiate any quality worthy of praise. Be proud but look to your warts.

You are so kind and philosophical! Thanks for the "heads-up"!

Your attitude to civil rights is what is so scary about America toda since it is shared by so many and evidenced in your acceptance of the greates intrusion on civil liberties since actual wartime in any democratic nation. One of the fundamental principles of democracy, for example, is that those who break the law do not lose their civil rights. They are entitled to due process and they are entitled to the presumption of innocence. Foreigners are also entitled to those same civilized observances.

Most of the time those principles are followed to a "T"

Those are missing in America today. So also is your prized freedom of speech and ability to express dissent. The Bush administration is acting like an incipient Fascist government.

I beg to differ... And believe many Americans would too!

I could very easily turn this around and list "Problems in Canada"; Paul Martin, Cretien, Canada's involvement in Serbia, Canada's social issues, problems with Canada's healthcare system, unemployment rate (8.7%??), Secularism, sympathy towards terrorists/ criminals, government controls everything, etc. Simply what you are trying to do...

It's a sad time when people like you underestimate others for not agreeing with you. I'm a nationalist, and will probably never agree or change my mind to think precisely like you. It does not make either one of us wrong or right. Your last quote I listed is just ridiculous! If you're talking about what we can and can't broadcast over public airways, or because the Bush Admin. does not answer to the rest of the world the way you would like, that is another thing. But the American people are not kept quiet. And the American media (quite Liberal I might add) does it's fair share of criticizing Bush, along with the rest of the world. We may have to do some research on our own, because we are misinformed at times, or not told the complete truth, but each American has that responsibility, and should take heed. What government in the world is completely honest with it's people? I bet if I called the Queen a whore (In Canada or England) I'd be beat down or going to jail! But anywhere here in the U.S. I am free to call Bush or any other President or any part the government whatever I want, freely and criticize accordingly!

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Blackie... You went on so many tangents your post was very difficult to follow.

Still waiting for the info. on millions of Iraqi's who feel we are murdering them, oppressing them, and that they do not want a free democracy....

Your breaking down of the PA sections was nice (For anyone who did not know what it said) But you seem to misunderstand it. Still waiting for those examples.... And no I am not scared. I have faith in a legislature that will protect me if these rights are violated. And trust me, there are many organizations, lawyers, and people waiting for the PA to violate civil rights!

Again, most Americans who agree with the Patriot Act have nothing to hide! And are willing to sacrifice.

The rest of your ranting are just misconceptions, and you will continue to try and justify your misbeliefs! And I'm tired of repeating myself while you dodge! Carry on Blackie...

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Guest eureka

You are not the only one who tires of your repetition. Stop repeating yourself and you may begin to drop your delusions.

You may take all the offense you want at my assessment of the military. If you scored so well in your "tests," then you are an example of the ignorance of Americans. No major power now has other than voluntary service in the military. They all ceased mandatory service before the American debacle in Vietnam.

I did not serve as long as you appear to have done and my service was certainly not voluntary. I have a better opinion of my value to society than to do something so wasteful of life. I wager, though, that my exposure to things military is greater than yours. Brothers and other relatives all served and fought. Some died.

Remember Wellington who said that his troops may not frighten Napoleon but they certainly scared him? He said that because they were, as someone else observed of a voluntary army, the dregs of society.

You are not above International Law. There is no doubt of that. That is why your country is reaping the opprobrium of Internationalists everywhere because Bush thought he was. (Notice that in the debate last night, he once again insisted that America is above that Law). However, the point being made is that your government is violating its own laws and Constitution. BlackDog has laid it out for you with respect to the Patriot Act which has wiped out your vaunted freedoms (always exaggerated, by the way)

The First Amendment has been virtually suspended and you like it that way, apparently. So has the 14th. Amendment. The Freedom Bush prattles about is a sham. Yours is now the most controlled society in the Western World.

If you are as intelligent as you would have us believe then use your intelligence. Defending the indefensible might be stimulating if you could provide a defense.

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Historical anarchy has always been ended by foreign military force.

And your point?

My point was that you are wrong about anarchy. You opined that anarchy failed because it was not a good thing. I am pointing out that anarchy has never failed from its own internal problems but invariably from foreign military invasion.

Thanks for the definition. Now that I know what an empire is, I stand by what I said!

So, you're wrong and proud of it? Interesting.

I'll ask again... Can you find me one example?

I gave you an example. Do you think that freedom of speech and association don't apply to the ACLU?

I can 99.9% guarantee you that the Patriot Act does not apply to your examples of misdemeanors!

Oh, I'm sure you can. It's just a pity that that was never your point! You originally said:

If someone is breaking the law, it shouldn't matter that their civil rights were infringed upon!

The law, not the Patriot Act. So according to you, if someone breaks a law by, for instance, not wearing their motorcycle helmet or by driving an unlicensed taxicab, you think their civil rights are forfeit.

When I first enlisted (1994) I scored very well on the ASVAB test The Marine Corps wanted me in intelligence, but I chose Infantry.

If you were given a legitimate order to fire on US citizens (for instance, in a case of civil unrest), would you obey it?

No, let me ask another question first: what's your service number? What is your unit, where is it stationed, and who is your commanding officer? What does SPORT stand for?

I have a friend in Marine Corps staff who I can verify your answers with.

And we still do have families that follow military tradition and honor... I'm a nationalist

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious, as Oscar Wilde said.

And no I am not scared. I have faith in a legislature that will protect me if these rights are violated.

Many German Jews said the exact same thing in 1933. That's why so many did not emigrate, as they had faith that their government would never hurt them.

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Still waiting for the info. on millions of Iraqi's who feel we are murdering them, oppressing them, and that they do not want a free democracy....

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there are indeed a significant number of Iraqis who feel this way. Millions? I dunno, but the simple fact of the insurgency, it's continued growth and scope, point to a strong anti-occupation sentiment.

Your breaking down of the PA sections was nice (For anyone who did not know what it said) But you seem to misunderstand it. Still waiting for those examples....

I misunderstand nothing. The PA is a law that was designed to give the state unprecedented power to subvert civil liberties. Period.

have faith in a legislature that will protect me if these rights are violated.

Would that be the same legislature that enacted the law in the first place? Talk about trusting the foxes to guard the henhouse.

The rest of your ranting are just misconceptions, and you will continue to try and justify your misbeliefs! And I'm tired of repeating myself while you dodge! Carry on Blackie...

Misconceptions? Such as...?

If you think I've made a factual or analytical error, please edify me as to what they might be. However, given your argument is nothing but a stream of jingoistic, incoherent, illogical nonsense, I doubt you have that capacity.

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It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there are indeed a significant number of Iraqis who feel this way. Millions? I dunno, but the simple fact of the insurgency, it's continued growth and scope, point to a strong anti-occupation sentiment.

Any day now BD...

All I see is Arabs killing Arabs, with the exception of terrorists picking off some of the coalition forces, and visa versa! Granted there will be times when we are targeting specific buildings, etc that will unfortunatley kill innocent people. Tissue will be damaged when trying to remove the cancer, but in the long run, it must be done. The Iraqi's know we are there to help them, not destroy them. But with people like you saying the opposite (trying to speak for them) it defeats a great cause. The sooner the Iraqi's publicly condemn insurgents entering their country, or do something about it, the sooner occupation will be over.

I misunderstand nothing. The PA is a law that was designed to give the state unprecedented power to subvert civil liberties. Period.

Do you play for the Dodgers? How hard is it BD? I'm just asking for one example! You still cannot answer the question.

Hugo wrote:

My point was that you are wrong about anarchy. You opined that anarchy failed because it was not a good thing. I am pointing out that anarchy has never failed from its own internal problems but invariably from foreign military invasion.

OK Hugo, I guess me and 99% of the world are wrong and just do not agree with you.

I gave you an example. Do you think that freedom of speech and association don't apply to the ACLU?

I'll answer that as soon as you provide me an example.

Hugo,

The law, not the Patriot Act. So according to you, if someone breaks a law by, for instance, not wearing their motorcycle helmet or by driving an unlicensed taxicab, you think their civil rights are forfeit.

Not what I said at ALL! If somebody breaks the law committing a felony (not traffic violations) then YES, they automatically lose certain priviledges (rights).

If you were given a legitimate order to fire on US citizens (for instance, in a case of civil unrest), would you obey it?

No, let me ask another question first: what's your service number? What is your unit, where is it stationed, and who is your commanding officer? What does SPORT stand for?

I have a friend in Marine Corps staff who I can verify your answers with.

"What if" scenarios, eh? I will refrain from answering that question. There are "lawful orders" and "unlawful". Civil unrest sounds like rioting, in which we are trained to handle those situations (tear gas, rubber bullets, etc.) In which case the military would be called in as a last resort. This would be a policing issue that the law would try and handle first.

My service number would be my SSN (in which I do not give out online, or to anyone in general)

1st Batalion, 7th Marines (29 Palms, Ca. Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center), 3rd Platoon, Alpha Co.

Commanding officer: Capt. Randall (now a major)

SPORT is an acronym in which only the rifleman knows, in which you do not rate. Earn the title Hugo!

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious, as Oscar Wilde said.

You're breaking my heart here...

"The truth has a certain ring."- Hemmingway

"Aboot time!" (Canadian) In English, "About time!"

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OK Hugo, I guess me and 99% of the world are wrong and just do not agree with you.

Is the world flat? Was it when 99% of people thought it was? What about when bleeding and leeches were good for your health? When fresh air caused disease? When mental illness was heresy?

I'll answer that as soon as you provide me an example.

The ACLU.

Not what I said at ALL!

Yes, it is, and I even quoted you saying it!

If somebody breaks the law committing a felony... then YES, they automatically lose certain priviledges (rights).

Well, it's not automatically at all, for a start. The law is somewhat of a lottery. I don't remember anyone arresting Clinton for the self-confessed crime of marijuana possession - does the fact that it happened 30-odd years ago mean it is no longer a crime?

As regards losing rights, the fact is that one institution decides the rules, enforces them, sets your punishment and so forth. So therefore, it's not surprising when that institution decides to grant itself far too much power (as in the Patriot Act) and decide that since all rights stem from the institution, it has the right to revoke them.

"What if" scenarios, eh? I will refrain from answering that question.

Why? It's pretty simple. If you received a legitimate order to fire upon US citizens, in any circumstance you care to name, would you follow it? Yes or no?

SPORT is an acronym in which only the rifleman knows, in which you do not rate. Earn the title Hugo!

You see, Dookie, here's my problem. All that information is on the web and can be found by anyone. I don't believe for two seconds that you're actually a Marine. You can't/won't prove it, and furthermore, I have been contacted by people from forums you apparently frequented where you trolled ferociously and made silly Walter-Mitty claims about yourself. So I'm told, at least, by people I consider more trustworthy than you.

And no, thank you, I don't think I want to earn the title of "rifleman" or to define it more accurately, "government hitman." Soldiers are mostly mercenaries and assassins, Dookie, they kill people for money.

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All I see is Arabs killing Arabs, with the exception of terrorists picking off some of the coalition forces, and visa versa! Granted there will be times when we are targeting specific buildings, etc that will unfortunatley kill innocent people. Tissue will be damaged when trying to remove the cancer, but in the long run, it must be done. The Iraqi's know we are there to help them, not destroy them. But with people like you saying the opposite (trying to speak for them) it defeats a great cause. The sooner the Iraqi's publicly condemn insurgents entering their country, or do something about it, the sooner occupation will be over

The insurgency is predominately homegrown, as this report from an Iraqi newspaper details:

An Inventory of Iraqi Resistance Groups

After the fall of Baghdad into the hands of the Anglo-American occupation on 9 April 2003, as a natural reaction, several sectors of Iraqi society confronted the occupation. Resistance cells were formed, the majority of which were of Islamic Sunni and pan-Arab tendencies. These cells started in the shape of scattered groups, without a unifying bond to bind them together.

These groups and small cells started to grow gradually, until they matured to some extent and acquired a clear personality that had its own political and military weight. Then they stated to pursue combining themselves into larger groups.

The majority of these groups do not know their leadership, the sources of their financing, or who provides them with weapons. However, the huge amounts of weapons, which the Saddam Husayn regime left behind, are undoubtedly one of the main sources for arming these groups. These weapons include mortars, RPGs, hand grenades, Kalashnikovs, and light weapons.

Their intellectual tendencies are usually described as a mixture of Islamic and pan-Arab ideas that agree on the need to put an end to the US presence in Iraq.

These groups have common denominators, the most important of which perhaps are focusing on killing US soldiers, rejecting the abductions and the killing of hostages, rejecting the attacks on Iraqi policemen, and respecting the beliefs of other religions. There is no compulsion to convert to Islam, this stems from their Islamic creed, their reading of the jurisprudence texts and historical events, and their respect for the directives and appeals of the Islamic organizations and religious dignitaries.

These groups believe the Iraqis are divided into two categories. One category -- the majority - is against the occupation, and the other -- the minority -- is on the side of the occupation. The resistance considers those who reject the occupation, whatever their description might be, to be on its side. The resistance considers those who are on the side of the occupation to be as spies and traitors who do not deserve to remain on Iraqi territory, and hence they should be liquidated.

How hard is it BD? I'm just asking for one example! You still cannot answer the question.

I already detailed some of the passages in the PA that can be used to subvert civil liberties. As I already sstated: many of these provisions and others are used frequently—though the details are blacked out. In most cases, you'd never even know if Patriot has been used against you. Capice?

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Tells me nothing black doggie... Try again! And try to use some of your own reasoning this time.

Hugo wrote:

Is the world flat? Was it when 99% of people thought it was? What about when bleeding and leeches were good for your health? When fresh air caused disease? When mental illness was heresy?

Getting mad yet Hugo? Am I getting under your nasty skin?

The ACLU.

Try again... The ACLU has not provided any civil rights violations since the PA. A lot of assumptions or insinuations though! I need concrete proof Hugo, in which you have yet to provide.

Don't bother replying if you have no evidence!

Well, it's not automatically at all, for a start. The law is somewhat of a lottery. I don't remember anyone arresting Clinton for the self-confessed crime of marijuana possession - does the fact that it happened 30-odd years ago mean it is no longer a crime?

As regards losing rights, the fact is that one institution decides the rules, enforces them, sets your punishment and so forth. So therefore, it's not surprising when that institution decides to grant itself far too much power (as in the Patriot Act) and decide that since all rights stem from the institution, it has the right to revoke them.

You must be a convicted fellon! Or in Canada, "Rehabilitated"

Nothing to justify... You break the law, and caught... Tough shit. Felonies only... spare me with your traffic violation bullshit! Difference between right & wrong! You'd better re-read the PA. If you need any help comprehending, let me know!

Why? It's pretty simple. If you received a legitimate order to fire upon US citizens, in any circumstance you care to name, would you follow it? Yes or no?

Why answer a stupid hypothetical question? Nice try to set me up...

You see, Dookie, here's my problem. All that information is on the web and can be found by anyone. I don't believe for two seconds that you're actually a Marine. You can't/won't prove it, and furthermore, I have been contacted by people from forums you apparently frequented where you trolled ferociously and made silly Walter-Mitty claims about yourself. So I'm told, at least, by people I consider more trustworthy than you.

And no, thank you, I don't think I want to earn the title of "rifleman" or to define it more accurately, "government hitman." Soldiers are mostly mercenaries and assassins, Dookie, they kill people for money.

You got a lot of problems Hugo... probably a manic deppressant! Inferiority complex syndrome! Are you threatened by me? It bothers you so much that an American (A Marine I might add) came to your site and whipped your ass and counters everything you have to say. That is why Canada and it's citizens will never, ever be looked upon by any American! Again, we're independent down here, and don't need Canada or the world's "stamp of approval"! And that kills you so much! Here, do a google search for me:

What is SMEAC?

Maximum effective point target range of the M16 A2 Service Rifle? M203 Grenade Launcher? M240 GOLF? SAW?

What is a Devil Dog? And how did that term come about?

Where is Tun Tavern?

What is the acronym for Combined Arms Exercise? And who is involved?

What's "remedial action"?

Call for fire? Indirect fire?

Do you even know where 29 Palms is? What desert?

What is the term "kentucky windage" used for? You fucking boot! That's probably what your buddy is!

Not that I expect you to know or answer any of this... I could care less! You're a nobody Hugo, up there in the tundra! And your only friends are online! You'd better hurry and Instant Message your friend, asking those questions!

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Tells me nothing black doggie... Try again! And try to use some of your own reasoning this time.

I'll not bother with you anymore, as you've not responded to any points, nor do I expect you have the brains to carry on a reasonded debate.

Unlike Hugo, I expect you probably are a jarhead. You're too dumb to be anything but.

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I'll not bother with you anymore, as you've not responded to any points, nor do I expect you have the brains to carry on a reasonded debate.

Unlike Hugo, I expect you probably are a jarhead. You're too dumb to be anything but.

Can't reason with the unreasonable! Little Black Doggie... It's hard to reason with someone who only posts links or does the copying & pasting of articles as their reply! Try debating in your own words next time! You are too gullable! You do not analyze what you read, and seem to go with whatever's popular for your own agenda.

You're just mad that Martin stole your taxdollars for his steamboat company, and never got an explanation, And God forbid you to ask! But you have the audacity to criticize everything you read deemed necessary about the U.S. whether it is true or not. You sir, are a follower! Claims, insinuations and assumptions that you cannot prove, but are so desperately trying to do so!

You probably bought into the whole Global Warming bit, & Koyote issues... I'd buy into it if someone could explain why we had an Ice Age (about 7 of them) and then the glaciers melted. There were no cumbustion engines, or SUV's back then causing this. Anyone ever think that it could just be an environmental cycle?? This is my point...you probably do not think of stuff like this.

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Getting mad yet Hugo? Am I getting under your nasty skin?

No. Is it getting under your skin that I spotted your ad populum fallacy?

Try again... The ACLU has not provided any civil rights violations since the PA.

Sorry, but it did, and no amount of denials from you will make the lawsuit that they filed go away.

Nothing to justify... You break the law, and caught... Tough shit.

I don't even know what this means. It's not English.

You'd better re-read the PA. If you need any help comprehending, let me know!

By all means, let us have your thoughts on the PA. I don't think you have any, though, all you're doing here is trolling. I'm sure I'll get no answer.

Why answer a stupid hypothetical question? Nice try to set me up...

I think you'll find that hypothesis is, in fact, an essential part of social and political science. I also know your allegation that I'm "setting you up" is because you know full well that you can't answer that question without portraying yourself as a liar, or an idiot, and you'd rather just drop that hot potato.

You got a lot of problems Hugo... probably a manic deppressant!

A "manic deppressant" [sic] would be something that makes one manic depressive, like a drug. You're calling me a drug?

Inferiority complex syndrome!

An inferiority complex is a psychological condition. A syndrome is a group of symptoms.

Are you threatened by me?

Very much so. If what you say is true, you're an aggressive and heavily armed man with the moral reasoning of a rottweiler, and official sanction to do massive violence and murder to other people. Any sane man would be threatened by you.

It bothers you so much that an American (A Marine I might add) came to your site and whipped your ass and counters everything you have to say.

Yes, that might bother me. I'll let you know if it happens.

Here, do a google search for me:

Why don't you just PM me the results of the Google search you did to come up with those terms? That would save me a lot of time!

Not that I expect you to know or answer any of this... I could care less!

Then why ask?

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Guest eureka

I agree witth BD that you must be a Marine : that you are too dumb to be anything else.

I tried debating you with my own words - no quotes but found you at a loss for any response other than to blow your own horn.

Therefore, I gave up on you earlier. How does one argue with an ass who has a rifle butt in his ear?

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I agree witth BD that you must be a Marine : that you are too dumb to be anything else.

I tried debating you with my own words - no quotes but found you at a loss for any response other than to blow your own horn.

Therefore, I gave up on you earlier. How does one argue with an ass who has a rifle butt in his ear?

You're right Eureka, you actually did debate in your own words. But both of us accomplished nothing, and stand by our beliefs. We just go on and on never agreeing... And of course you are a hard core liberal who resorts to personal attacks when someone does not agree with you. Pretty sad. As I said before, you are unreasonable! So sad that you live your life one way! And Libs are supposed to be open minded. But of course only have opene mouths!

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No. Is it getting under your skin that I spotted your ad populum fallacy?

If you're talking about me being a Marine... Not at all!

Sorry, but it did, and no amount of denials from you will make the lawsuit that they filed go away.

Oh...Now it's a lawsuit, eh? (talk about fallacy)

Lawsuit still does not prove anything. I still go back to assumptions which is all you have.

By all means, let us have your thoughts on the PA. I don't think you have any, though, all you're doing here is trolling. I'm sure I'll get no answer.

Hugo, you're the one who thinks it is a civil rights violation, but cannot provide one example where it has violated anyone's rights! You're argument has consistently been that the govt. is spying on us. Not true. And you say that living in Canada! Burden of proof is on you!

I think you'll find that hypothesis is, in fact, an essential part of social and political science. I also know your allegation that I'm "setting you up" is because you know full well that you can't answer that question without portraying yourself as a liar, or an idiot, and you'd rather just drop that hot potato.

You idiot! You asked if I would kill U.S. citizens in a time of civil unrest, if given a direct order? What kind of stupid question is that?

Let me ask you.... Do the citizens have weapons? Are they firing at me? Because if they are, then I have a right to defend and protect myself. Civil unrest sounds like a protest, in which the local police or Natl. Guard would handle. I'm not a police officer.

A "manic deppressant" [sic] would be something that makes one manic depressive, like a drug. You're calling me a drug?
An inferiority complex is a psychological condition. A syndrome is a group of symptoms.

Never claimed to be articulate. But I think you got the point.

Very much so. If what you say is true, you're an aggressive and heavily armed man with the moral reasoning of a rottweiler, and official sanction to do massive violence and murder to other people. Any sane man would be threatened by you.

LOL...this coming from an anarchist? You probably wear military issued combat boots (in which you never served, and bought at a surplus store), with your mohawk, chaos tatoos, and piercings. Wouldn't you like this character in a person? Or were you just describing yourself?

Yes, that might bother me. I'll let you know if it happens.

Aren't you tired yet of getting ass spanked, verbally?

Why don't you just PM me the results of the Google search you did to come up with those terms? That would save me a lot of time!
Then why ask?

Suit yourself... You brought it up! Having trouble backing it up? Or am I wearing you out?

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If you're talking about me being a Marine... Not at all!

Ah, so I see you don't know any Latin. That's not surprising, given that your English is so rudimentary. Ad populum means "of the people", and if you understood that you would know that I was referring to your fallacy of "since 99% of people reject anarchy, that proves it wrong." Consider that exactly the same argument can be used to prove the foreign policy of the USA is wrong, since most of the world disagrees with it. Does that illustrate the fallacy well enough for you?

Your claim to be a Marine, on the other hand, is simply a fallacy of insufficient evidence. The only thing you can prove here is your ability as a debater, so I suggest you stick to that, and refrain from making claims to false authority that you cannot substantiate.

Lawsuit still does not prove anything... you're the one who thinks it is a civil rights violation, but cannot provide one example where it has violated anyone's rights!

A federal judge already proved you wrong.

You asked if I would kill U.S. citizens in a time of civil unrest, if given a direct order? What kind of stupid question is that?

There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers. You call the question "stupid" because you wish to divert attention from the fact that you have no answer satisfactory either to me or even to yourself.

Let me ask you.... Do the citizens have weapons? Are they firing at me? Because if they are, then I have a right to defend and protect myself.

What if the only reason they were firing at you was because they wanted you to leave them alone? What if their firing at you is, as they see it, an exercise of their right to defend and protect themselves?

Countless times in history, US troops have fired upon and killed US citizens. I'm asking if, as a US soldier, you would join the example of your historical colleagues?

Never claimed to be articulate.

Good thing, too, or we'd be discussing yet another fallacy.

You probably wear military issued combat boots (in which you never served, and bought at a surplus store), with your mohawk, chaos tatoos, and piercings.

None of this is the case but, even if it were, it's utterly irrelevant. You further prove your inadequacy with such ad hominem attacks. I'm sorry, you don't know Latin, do you? Ad hominem means an argument against the debater rather than against their viewpoint. It's another fallacy, which shouldn't surprise you. Pretty much everything you've said has been a fallacy so far.

Aren't you tired yet of getting ass spanked, verbally?

Well, somebody would have to start before I could know if I would get tired.

Having trouble backing it up?

I'm not trying to back anything up, nor do I have to, because it was your contention in the first place, therefore the onus is on you to provide evidence of it. Until you do, I won't believe you.

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Ah, so I see you don't know any Latin. That's not surprising, given that your English is so rudimentary. Ad populum means "of the people", and if you understood that you would know that I was referring to your fallacy of "since 99% of people reject anarchy, that proves it wrong." Consider that exactly the same argument can be used to prove the foreign policy of the USA is wrong, since most of the world disagrees with it. Does that illustrate the fallacy well enough for you?

Nope! I do not speak Latin. So how would I know that you were referring to "99% of people"? You are pathetic. Do you really believe that you are smart because you know a few Latin words? Maybe I should start replying in "Klingon" and then I can condemn you for not knowing, and look like a big "smarty pants"! You are so insecure Hugo!

Your claim to be a Marine, on the other hand, is simply a fallacy of insufficient evidence. The only thing you can prove here is your ability as a debater, so I suggest you stick to that, and refrain from making claims to false authority that you cannot substantiate.

Whatever floats your boat "Latin turd"! I do not need to prove my military service to you... Actually already did. You IM your faggot buddy yet? Go find me a "Bravo" "Alpha" "1100" "November"!

A federal judge already proved you wrong.

If you knew anything about the ACLU, they deem EVERYTHING "unconstitutional" and are totally partisan toward Dems & Liberal governments. Doesn't surprise me... Didn't prove anything wrong to me. Me & many Americans are in full support of the PA. Still there is no clear example that it has violated anyone's rights... That was the argument Hugo!

There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers. You call the question "stupid" because you wish to divert attention from the fact that you have no answer satisfactory either to me or even to yourself. 
What if the only reason they were firing at you was because they wanted you to leave them alone? What if their firing at you is, as they see it, an exercise of their right to defend and protect themselves?

Countless times in history, US troops have fired upon and killed US citizens. I'm asking if, as a US soldier, you would join the example of your historical colleagues?

Do you know how stupid you sound?

What if a soldier or Marine came to your house in Canada, beat up your mom, your sister, girlfriend, wife, your dog... And then shanked you and your dad in the ass with a K-bar? What would you do? Can't shoot us... You don't have a right to bear arms! Can't defend yourself, because Canadians are pacifists! Anarchists are too dumb to know what to do... So tell me Hugo. I already told you what I would do, and that your statement would not apply to Soldiers or Marines.

You're a joke Hugo... A Canadian Joke! You have no friends because of your anti-social behavior, no support for anarchy, you can't debate, or even insult me! But I give you "kudos" for trying... a valiant endeavor... (yeah right!)

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I think we have a winner in the worst post ever awards.

Furthermore, I've seen many get schooled by Hugo (including myself), but have never witnessed such a sound thrashing. If we had a Hall of Fame, Hugo's post above would be in. Sir, my hat is off.

And by the way, insults and foul language (including terms like "faggot") are beyond the borders of acceptable debate. Given that this poster has nothing to offer beyond that, I think we can safely boot this "Marine" back to the confines of his mom's basement from whence he came.

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Where do my posts indicate a lack of intelligence? Before you respond, note that an unorthodox opinion does not make one stupid. See Galileo, Luther, or Voltaire for some examples.

I think you are very well educated, but lack the ability to reason.

No, nor did I find any proof of your vocation (that means "job").

"bravo" "alpha" "1100" "november" (balloon)

Your lack of reasoning would lead me to believe that I am unable to prove my military service. What else do you want?

So you're proud to belong to an organisation that shoots the people it is supposed to be protecting, as long as you don't have to do any shooting yourself?

Now that's what I call cowardice.

There you go again... lack of reasoning, and manipulation of words. You said it not me, not true!

The fact that the Marine Corps would want you in intelligence is very worrying. Of course, we don't know that you are a Marine, so I'm needlessly insulting the intelligence personnel of the Marine Corps by saying that. I'll apologise to a real Marine for that at some point.

No offense taken! Many jobs in the intelligence field (technology) computer science, decoding, INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY!! I think you are trying to refer to intel as reciting Literature, poetry, advanced education skills, etc... In which you do very well! And I am not knocking that. Wish I were that smart!

Nobody finds wisdom by being ignorant. The two are mutually exclusive (which means that they can't both be true at the same time).

Really? I see it everyday. In old people especially (not all, but some). They're happy, go-lucky all the time. And do not pay attention to politics, or what's going on in the world. They're just happy to live life! And I envy that. But I'm probably wrong. I'm sure you will correct me.

If you don't care when I learnt Latin, then why did you ask me, "Did you just learn Latin today?"

I was referring to when you started learning. I believed you when you paraphrased the words, "Ad populum" and "Ad hominum", but doubted you because it was too coincidental to the site: Writers Workshop. You know Latin, I don't. I'm pretty good in Spanish though, but I do not want to turn this into a "who's fluent in more languages?"

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Guest eureka

Alas! Regardless of their doom,

The little victims play!

No sense have they of ills to come

Nor care beyond today.

The meaning of ignorance is bliss is not what most people think it means.

The head in the sand attitude of BD6 is closer to Gray's thought of what the future would bring to the, as yet, uneducated and immature youngsters.

Maybe it would be more comfortable to believe that Dubbya will protect him than face the nightmare scenario for America and the world that his reelection may bring.

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