McGuinty must go to trial -- Breach of Public Trust

[gullyfourmyle]

Yeah maybe the fact that I spelled it out for Hudak in simplistic terms nudged a switch in his brain. At least his brain has a switch to switch.

So Boges, what would it take for you to agree with criminal charges against McGuinty? Murder?

The criminal charges that I said could be laid against McGuinty, his staff and the Energy Minister Chris Bentley are only a few of the charges that could be laid. There are lots more that could be laid if they choose to throw the book at him as he richly deserves.

Having leaders take advantage of the public as McGuinty has is the way democracies are toppled. It happens slowly. Then people wake up one day and the democratically elected leaders are suddenly entrenched and cannot be dislodged.

The National Rifle Association in the US provides a classic case study in what happens when private interests become so powerful that they are capable steering the government against the will of the population.

We don't have the NRA here but we do have massive energy interests that have become so powerful that they have our country by the short hairs. Now they have become major financial blood suckers.

Think for a moment. Do you think for even a second that the Power interests didn't have a Plan 'B' in case Plan 'A' failed - which it spectacularly did?

If they hadn't anticipated this scenario (and the politicians' stupidity) we wouldn't owe 600 million. To their credit they even tried to help McGuinty's gang avoid the penalties.

And somehow you don't think McGuinty deserves to be issued his orange suit and an address at Maplehurst (that I personally helped prepare for him).

Can you please explain to the rest of us why you think McGuinty deserves mercy?

Imagine if the CEO of a private company disposed of 600 million dollars from company coffers in secret. Just gave it all away and kept none for himself but in the hopes that by doing so he was helping friends keep their positions in the same company. What do you suppose would happen? Does Enron come to mind? Not exactly the same but you get my drift. Not financial gain in McGuinty's case but an electoral goal achieved and an ideological goal satisfied. That was personal motive. Not a motive that was intended to directly benefit the public that was at the time taking legal measures to try and fight him off (the Town of Oakville tried a number of legal gambits to protect their constituents from certain harm the gas plants would have caused).

Had the gas plants been successful and the subsequent respiratory damage been recorded the charge against McGuinty would have been escalated to GENOCIDE. A much more serious crime.

Like I said, what does it take for you understand that our Criminal Code laws are meant to be respected by everyone; private citizen or elected official. If you exempt someone who doesn't deserve it, you are on your way down a very slippery slope.

Edited June 6, 2013 by gullyfourmyle

[Boges]

Yeah maybe the fact that I spelled it out for Hudak in simplistic terms nudged a switch in his brain. At least his brain has a switch to switch.

So Boges, what would it take for you to agree with criminal charges against McGuinty? Murder?

The criminal charges that could be laid against McGuinty, his staff and the Energy Minister Chris Bentley are only a few of the charges that could be laid. There are lots more that could be laid if they choose to throw the book at him as he richly deserves.

Having leaders take advantage of the public as McGuinty has is the way democracies are toppled. It happens slowly. Then people wake up one day and the democratically elected leaders are suddenly entrenched and cannot be dislodged.

The National Rifle Association in the US provides a classic case study in what happens when private interests become so powerful that they are capable steering the government against the will of the population.

We don't have the NRA here but we do have massive energy interests that have become so powerful that they have our country by the short hairs. Now they have become major financial blood suckers.

Think for a moment. Do you think for even a second that the Power interests didn't have a Plan 'B' in case Plan 'A' failed - which it spectacularly did?

If they hadn't anticipated this scenario (and the politicians' stupidity) we wouldn't own 600 million. To their credit they even tried to help McGuinty's gang avoid the penalties.

And somehow you don't think McGuinty deserves to be issued his orange suit and an address at Maplehurst (that I personally helped prepare for him).

Can you please explain to the rest of us why you think McGuinty deserves mercy?

Hey, I think McGuinty is the worst of the worst type of sleazeball. I'm not a legal expert though.

You seem to have thought this out very through very comprehensibly. I'm not going to argue with your statements.

So saying I don't think he should have criminal charges tabled against him was more a case of me seeing this in practical way. I'm just wondering if the police of the legal system will even take this on, it'd be nice to see these crooks get what they deserve, but we'll see I guess.

It seems the media is picking this up and it won't go away like the Liberals would like.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Boges

[PIK]

They are liberal nothing will happen and TO will give them a majority in the next election.

[Boges]

I just heard on the radio that they've admitted that instead of deleting stuff, they've gone to opening up Gmail accounts so they can do government business off the record.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Charles Anthony
image deleted

[margrace]

Gullyfourmyle I did do something, I got my Hydro cut back and I put it on a forum for others to read. For doing this I got jumped on by Conservatives and booted off the forum. Clement would answer my posts for a while but now he lets his dogs do it and he knows who I am and avoids me if he can.

[Keepitsimple]

Gullyfourmyle I did do something, I got my Hydro cut back and I put it on a forum for others to read. For doing this I got jumped on by Conservatives and booted off the forum. Clement would answer my posts for a while but now he lets his dogs do it and he knows who I am and avoids me if he can.

Why are you writing to Clement about a Hydro issue? He's Federal. Hydro is a Provincial (Liberal) issue - nothing to do with Tony Clement and the Conservatives. Unless I missed something, it's not surprising that you got booted off.

[Boges]

What's the most scandalous about this is that they must have been deleting these e-mails for a reason. We already knew they cancelled these plants for purely political reasons. So what more scandalous behaviour were they trying to hide here?

[gullyfourmyle]

Margrace what you did was commendable. Clement "jumping" on you tells you something important - you did the right thing and you struck a nerve. Do you seriously think McGuinty will thank me for stirring up a hornet nest in the Legislature by asking him for him to be charged with criminal offenses? Is Premier Wynne likely to give me a hug when she sees me?

Tim Hudak,

PC Leader,

Ontario

RE: Your staffer e-mail earlier today on your behalf

Dear Tim, Kathleen and Andrea,

The item below is posted on a Canadian website devoted to political discussions. It’s a reply to a previous post but it has bearing on the recent actions by the PCs to have McGuinty staffers investigated for suspected criminal activity that could well lead (and ought to lead in my opinion) to criminal charges against McGuinty himself for Breach of Public Trust and Abuse of Power among a number of other things.

Failure to achieve this will amount to a further betrayal of public trust and amount to a serious blow against democracy in Ontario.

Criminal Charge Backgrounder in the McGuinty gas plant fiasco – the missing e-mails

McGuinty is a lawyer. His staff may have lawyers among them. At worst they all have a working knowledge of the law and how it applied to government documents and if they don't, they should have. What that means is that all of them knew that by destroying the e-mails they knew or should have known that what they were about to do before they did it was illegal and carried a jail term with it.

What none of them expected was for the public to start yelling for criminal charges to be pressed. As I've said before; in my opinion, this is far from McGuinty's first foray into law breaking and getting away with it. Before the hue and cry over the law breaking, he displayed a shocking level of arrogance and contempt (based on a history of past successes) for the intelligence of Ontarians and a rock solid confidence in Ontarian apathy which has been so well displayed from end to end on this site (Political Forums) as well as by the voting public.

Where he went wrong was in thinking that everyone was apathetic.

Who was not apathetic?

The people who McGuinty and his government committed crimes against in the past and I consider myself to be one of them.

When you've been on the receiving end of bullying, regardless of where it comes from, the memory of it stays fresh and never fades. The anger doesn't dissipate. So me and quite a number of others have seen our chance.

I would have posted earlier but I've been waiting for a call from Tim Hudak's office. I wanted permission to post a copy of the e-mail one of his staffers sent me this morning explaining how the OPP request for criminal charges was handled. Didn’t happen so I’m writing this instead.

This request for charges is not a slam dunk by any means partly because they went to the OPP instead of the RCMP. The OPP are bungling idiots by comparison with the RCMP. I can say this from personal experience with both forces. Both are easily susceptible to corruption and lying as they see fit but the OPP own a level of stupidity that leaves the RCMP in their dust.

The other problem is that the Attorney General is the boss of the OPP. So it's not arm’s length. Lots of room for collusion and back room deals. And the Attorney General is John Gerretsen who has let me down on occasion in the past (the gold plated Seaton Land Fraud for instance). In fact he’s always been a roadblock of the worst sort from my perspective. I see no reason to trust him now and plenty of red flags since he can’t help but be involved. In my view he bears watching very, very closely. His being Attorney General now could be one of the major reasons for McGuinty’s arrogance and expectance for getting away with everything.

I don't know if this can be fixed. The OPP might fix it themselves by declining to accept the job and pass it over to the RCMP.

The other problem is that this is unprecedented and no one in any police force in Canada has any training or template to follow as to how to proceed. As such given their skill at botching simple tasks and the OPP being the most corrupt force in Ontario the outcome may be much worse than we need. If you check the courses of study offered by the Police College you’ll quickly find that Canadian police forces have never trained anyone to deal with elected officials who are so corrupt that they are committing criminal code offenses as a “normal” way of doing business. But this is precisely how the McGuinty Liberals have been running the province. I had quite conversation with one of the instructors there and all he could do was wish me luck and hope that I could keep going long enough to expose the Liberals for what they really are. He wasn’t that hopeful.

I can say this because in my dealings with the OPP over the years they've impacted criminal investigations I've done and they've screwed up each and every time. Then there's the street racing legislation, Bill 172 which was enacted fraudulently from end to end and based on “misleading” (I’m being charitable here) information supplied by OPP Commissioner Julian Fantino whom I've known since 1968. Jim Bradley (then Minister of Transport) and his lawyers put road blocks in my path for him so the Standing Committee could never know the truth when it mattered. The Standing Committee who researched and wrote that bill did not receive any correct or intelligent information from the OPP. None of them had a clue what they were doing (including Jim and his incompetent lawyers) or understood anything about the subject of their bill – Street Racing - after they’d written it. Peter Tabuns was the only politician present for the vote who actually knew that they’d make a huge mistake but by then it was too late to speak up without committing career suicide. When the vote was taken, the example cited turned out to be a police chase of an armed robber. That is in Hansard, May 14^th, 2007 I if I remember correctly. The passing of that bill led to further OPP corruption, financial rape and government sanctioned insurance fraud against the people the OPP are sworn to protect on a scale of vampirism that hopefully will never be equaled by any other police jurisdiction in Canada.

So if the OPP handle this case, we can expect corruption and bungling in capital letters. On the other hand it would be fun to be pleasantly surprised. If so I’ll rethink the Tooth Fairy and the Easter bunny.

As a constituent, I don’t see any good choices here. Premier Wynne, there is so much corruption buried deep in the Liberal Party and the government itself that your party does not deserve to rule. Your problem is that you have no clue how to identify where the corruption is and no one inside your party is going to volunteer information. So your future should you survive this is studded with land mines. That is not to say that once in power, any other party would find the corruption within the ranks of the civil servants. They would not. In fact at first they would be in a worse position than you are now.

But Tim, most of the province is scared half to death of you. From an environmental point of view for an isolated but far from unique example, it would take a lot for me to believe you would make a good Premier based on the depth of your “natural heritage” knowledge which I believe might be measurable with a micrometer. In this and other ministries (health as another example) a vote for you would appear to be a giant step back into the fifties. People think you’re a Mike Harris clone and you haven’t convinced anyone you aren’t. You can’t lead with a hammer. You may not deserve this reputation but it sticks to you like white on rice and as such are perceived as a non-competitor. You need to fix this fast and it has to be far more than skin deep. You need an internal make-over. Good luck, I sincerely hope you can pull it off. But THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR PEOPLE INITIATING THE CRIMINAL CHARGES! For that they deserve public recognition and other honours. That’s how unusual it is to see MPPs do the right thing spontaneously without being driven to it by the public.

Andrea, you might be the best option. But since you have never once responded to my requests for help or offers to help I’m not disposed to help you at this point. Much of what is before us now could have been avoided it you had responded to my e-mails to your office back in 2005 and 2006. What we’re doing now with the gas plant issue could have been done then with Seaton only easier. Your staffers were really excited by what I had to say. But you were missing in action. The same thing is going on right now. You are the only one not responding. If you were in power I would expect past performance to be an indicator for the future. No help then, no use now. You could and should topple the government’s budget and go on to win the election. Your party is the best alternative right now but you don’t have the personal dynamics to pull it off. You have a similar problem to Tim. His leadership has the wrong sizzle. Your leadership profile has no sizzle. When you need to step up and seize the moment, you disappear instead. You have a long history of that. Possibly you have important personal reasons. You can’t be faulted for that sort of thing. But if not, you need to start doing the job like a winner instead of an also ran.

The Green Party at the provincial level is composed of idiots with no backbone or imagination – a bunch of anal control freaks with nothing to control. I had high hopes for them but none now.

For my part, I want to nail the corrupt elements who are in government and expose them to criminal charges. A change in government might make that harder unless the winners agree to help me do it. Wishful thinking and highly unlikely.

I believe Premier Wynne has the personal tools to do the best job as Premier but she definitely has the worst supporting cast where long serving MPPs are concerned.

However it all shakes out, we need a minority government going forward who is willing to listen to creative thinking such as the stuff I’ve learned from nearly ten years of investigating the McGuinty government. If you

Tim manage to win in the event of an election, you’ll need a complete image make-over to pull it off.

If you are to win Andrea, you will need a lot of luck and the ability to convince people that someone somewhere in your organization can be persuaded to answer the letters and e-mails we send you. Everyone else does but not you.

The Environment, Health and other Ministries that I tacked onto Tim’s shortcomings applies to all of you. None of you are experts and unfortunately from personal experience I can tell you that the ministerial experts you have to rely on aren’t much better informed or educated than you are. It’s appalling. If I weren’t right, we wouldn’t’ be in the mess we are in, in every ministry. I could go on for much longer but that’s enough for now.

Edited June 7, 2013 by gullyfourmyle

[Keepitsimple]

If the Chief of Staffs directed the complete deletion/destruction of emails for the Gas Scandal, does it not follow that emails tied to other damaging issues and scandals have also been deleted? I'm having trouble thinking of any other government (other than Adscam) that has done something so overtly corrupt. There have been boondoggles and bad judgement - but to spend what might approach a billion dollars to save seats - and then to lie and cover it up by destroying emails. It SHOULD be criminal - and we HAVE to know if it goes beyond the Gas Scandal.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Keepitsimple

[scribblet]

Gullyfourmyle I did do something, I got my Hydro cut back and I put it on a forum for others to read. For doing this I got jumped on by Conservatives and booted off the forum. Clement would answer my posts for a while but now he lets his dogs do it and he knows who I am and avoids me if he can.

I wonder too why you would be writing to Tony Clement about your Ontario hydro bills and Direct Energy ( I read about it elsewhere). You were not booted off a forum for posting about your hydro bills. Fighting back was a good thing but directed at the wrong gov`t.

However, I suspect that if an MP is getting a lot of email rants about provincial matters, the ranter would be ignored after a while. I suspect if you called the office staff `dogs` in any of your emails, they would hit the trash. Your MPP would be the appropriate person to write to.

[Boges]

Clement used to be part of the Harris Tories. Maybe that's what she's referring to.

Regardless protection against private energy providers isn't something I'd credit these Liberals with.

[scribblet]

Clement used to be part of the Harris Tories. Maybe that's what she's referring to.

Regardless protection against private energy providers isn't something I'd credit these Liberals with.

Okay, could be, that would make sense but he wasn't an MPP in Parry Sound, he was Minister of Health in Brampton.

Direct Energy was fined for fraud (forging signatures) in 2003 so that must've been before Mcguinty ? I believe they are still in business.

http://www.ontariotenants.ca/electricity/articles/2003/cp203f20.phtml

Edited June 7, 2013 by scribblet

[margrace]

I guess my post wasn't very clear. I never talked to dear old tony about the hydro what do you think I am stupid ha ha. I know who controls what. No I talked to him about was other federal concerns and he does not like to be questioned. The Hydro think was cleared up when the liberals came into power and I discovered there suddenly was a place I could get help.

He has little time for this riding, not like Patrick Brown in Barrie. He could take a page out of his book.

[guyser]

Added to that today it comes out that senior staff wilfully and illegally deleted emails to cover their tracks.

I'd say this scandal is a bit more serious.

Allow me to use the RFD ** here....k ?

"What emails? There arent any. No one has seen them, they dont exist"

Does this work for some here? Cuz its worked in other areas of politics as some of you have put in print.

**RFD = Rob Ford Defence

ETA-Not Boges per se as target

Edited June 10, 2013 by Guyser2

[Boges]

So McGuinty will quit his seat today.

You gotta think this is coming from Wynne. If Wynne wanted to really separate herself from the stink that is McGuinty she would have kicked him out of the Liberal caucus today.

I heard on the radio today that the OPP might be able to unearth some of the deleted e-mails.

I wonder what they were trying to hide.

[PIK]

Trying to hide bribes maybe. Imagine if this was a conservative, the non stop coverage this would get world wide, would be wild.

[guyser]

Trying to hide bribes maybe. Imagine if this was a conservative, the non stop coverage this would get world wide, would be wild.

The emails dont exist! Its a smear job by the Sun !

See how that works?

[PIK]

The emails dont exist! Its a smear job by the Sun !

See how that works?

But it is not a smear job. And I would bet you would vote for the libs today if there was a election.

[guyser]

But it is not a smear job. And I would bet you would vote for the libs today if there was a election.

Sure it is, the emails dont exist , it is all hearsay , a media driven witch hunt by the Sun. Not a shred of proof ....lets see what other moronic defence was used recently....hang on , I will think of something...

You go make that bet Pik.

[Charles Anthony]

Folks,

This thread is merger between 2 threads:

McGuinty must go to trial.
and
McGuinty and the law: Breach of Public Trust

Ch. A.