Al Queda laughing at American Government

[bush_cheney2004]

ask Al Qaeda? Ya, c'mon... I've already prompted you to resurrect the related thread... to take it outside this thread. What's your hesitation?

you can keep attempting to belittle the 'triage' principle behind Canada's universal health care. Anything to keep the focus off your 'American health disadvantage'!!!

Surely you know by now that "your prompts" are meaningless here. There was a fleeting post bidding farewell to MLW in disgust, but you quickly deleted it...welcome back !

"Triage principles ® " for peasants are to be avoided whenever possible.

[Guest American Woman]

tens of thousands??? Show your numbers... as I recall from the 'other thread', for a particular year in question, ~ 1000-1500 (I can't recall off the top the actual number) persons from Canada's largest populated province, Ontario, had availed themselves of out-of-country medical care to the U.S..

So you think I'm going to compare the number of people from one province who went to the U.S. for health care to the entire population of the U.S. seeking health care everywhere outside the U.S.? Nice try, but I don't think so.

no - Americans are forced... a service isn't available to an American without health insurance or without an ability to pay the exorbitant costs involved... or when an insurer refuses to cover the service... or when the insurer to cover costs because of a pre-existing condition... etc.

No, choosing to go somewhere else for cheaper care isn't being "forced," it's a choice. Unlike not having the care available - at any cost. If you don't understand the difference, the problem lies with you.

I mean, really, why have hundreds of thousands of Americans regularly, year upon year, traveled abroad for medical care? Why?

I mean, really, why do you focus on hundreds of thousands of a population of hundreds of millions going abroad for medical care when tens of thousands of a population of tens of thousands are going abroad for medical care - when those going abroad have already paid, through their taxes, for medical care at home? Yet they choose to pay twice. Why, oh, why?

Of course it's understandable that those who cannot receive the service in Canada because it's unavailable would "choose" ( ) to go to the U.S. over dying since they can't get the service at any cost, but I'm talking about those who could get the care - already paid for - yet choose to go outside of Canada. Not to mention plenty of Canadians also pay for health insurance, too.

[GostHacked]

So heath care is related to Al-Queda how??

[Argus]

This is not true...in Canada or Europe, as there are eligibility requirements and other fine print that some Canadians and landed immigrants do not meet. And more to the practical point of actual health care being received, "access to a wait list is not access to health care".

You are picking nits. The fact is all receive adequate, if unexceptional health care, and that health care outcomes are generally as good as or better than in the US for far less money.

Canada has the most expensive and poorest performing universal access system in the world.

I don't know if that's true or not but it's irrelevant. It's still cheaper and more efficient than what the US has.

The Americans already have "public health care" on a scale that dwarfs anything in Canada, at the federal, state, and county levels.

That's only because you have massive poverty, the only nation in the western world with an 'underclass' of permanently unemployable people. No one else has the enormous, crime-ridden slums the US possesses. So yes, your state health care for the destitute is pretty big. But everyone else either pays or dies.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Argus

[Guest American Woman]

That's only because you have massive poverty, the only nation in the western world with an 'underclass' of permanently unemployable people. No one else has the enormous, crime-ridden slums the US possesses. So yes, your state health care for the destitute is pretty big. But everyone else either pays or dies.

Wow. Just wow.

[Argus]

Wow. Just wow.

What, you didn't know? You think the Germans have massive slums like you do? Or Canada, for that matter? You Detroit and East LA have their duplicates in Spain and Norway? Nope. Every nation has poorer areas of higher crime, but you Americans are far, far far in the lead in terms of massive, soul-deadening slums.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Argus

[Guest American Woman]

What, you didn't know? You think the Germans have massive slums like you do? Or Canada, for that matter? You think Harlem and East LA have their duplicates in Spain and Norway? Nope. Every nation has poorer areas of higher crime, but you Americans are far, far far in the lead in terms of massive, soul-deadening slums.

Ummm. That's not what my comment was in response to. It's in response to how much you apparently "don't know."

Edited May 19, 2013 by American Woman

[kimmy]

That's only because you have massive poverty, the only nation in the western world with an 'underclass' of permanently unemployable people. No one else has the enormous, crime-ridden slums the US possesses. So yes, your state health care for the destitute is pretty big. But everyone else either pays or dies.

I don't agree about the *only* nation part. One of my Brit friends was recently complaining about the existence in England of families who have not worked for generations. One wonders if the immigrant slums around Paris (the ones where a near war erupted a few years ago) will result in the same. One could make the argument that Canada's Indian reserves have an underclass of permanently unemployable people.

I have a friend whose 22 year old daughter is an idiot. The idiot daughter has idiot friends. My friend tells me stories about her idiot daughter and her idiot friends. Finding ways to scam the government for money so that they can keep on partying is their only job. Several of them have fake medical disabilities-- "back pain"-- that they claim prevents them from working. Most of these idiot girls have children of their own, and I am worried. With parents like that, their kids won't have much of a chance in life. My friend is basically raising her grandson as her own, and just desperately hoping it turns out better than it did with her idiot daughter.

-k

[bush_cheney2004]

You are picking nits. The fact is all receive adequate, if unexceptional health care, and that health care outcomes are generally as good as or better than in the US for far less money.

I don't know if that's true or not but it's irrelevant. It's still cheaper and more efficient than what the US has.

That's only because you have massive poverty, the only nation in the western world with an 'underclass' of permanently unemployable people. No one else has the enormous, crime-ridden slums the US possesses. So yes, your state health care for the destitute is pretty big. But everyone else either pays or dies.

No, the fact is that it is easy to find Canadians who do/did not receive adequate health care. I have cited several such cases as reported by the CBC.

AS for the U.S. being the only nation in the "western world with an 'underclass' or permanently unemployable people", obviously you have not traveled much. Start with the Canadian Maritimes.

[bush_cheney2004]

What, you didn't know? You think the Germans have massive slums like you do? Or Canada, for that matter? You Detroit and East LA have their duplicates in Spain and Norway? Nope. Every nation has poorer areas of higher crime, but you Americans are far, far far in the lead in terms of massive, soul-deadening slums.

Ever been to Brazil ? Go tell them how good they have it compared to the U.S.

Edited May 19, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[waldo]

So you think I'm going to compare the number of people from one province who went to the U.S. for health care to the entire population of the U.S. seeking health care everywhere outside the U.S.? Nice try, but I don't think so.

I'm not asking you to compare anything. I simply asked you to substantiate your claim that "tens of thousands" of Canadians regularly travel to the U.S. for healthcare purposes. Apparently, you're not prepared to offer that substantiation.

as for my reference to Ontario, it was, as mentioned, in the context of the other 'American health disadvantage' thread concerning claims of Ontario residents traveling to U.S.. Given Ontario hosts about 40% of the total population of the country, I think it's a fairly representative 'measuring stick'.

No, choosing to go somewhere else for cheaper care isn't being "forced," it's a choice. Unlike not having the care available - at any cost. If you don't understand the difference, the problem lies with you.

when choice is dictated by means... there is no choice. I note you conveniently bypassed the references to insurers refusing coverage (e.g., coverage is maxed out)... or insurers refusing coverage given pre-existing conditions, etc.. How convenient of you to simply bypass those references!

I mean, really, why do you focus on hundreds of thousands of a population of hundreds of millions going abroad for medical care when tens of thousands of a population of tens of thousands are going abroad for medical care

I did not invent the 'false equivalency' game here... I suggest you direct that question to BC_2004.

Of course it's understandable that those who cannot receive the service in Canada because it's unavailable would "choose" ( ) to go to the U.S. over dying

are there such examples... significant numbers? Are these a part of your unsubstantiated "tens of thousands"? Have there never been any Americans to seek life-saving treatment abroad, outside the U.S., because of unavailability? None? Never? Really? And none of them had their own U.S. based health insurance? Why... you seem to play the false equivalency game quite well yourself!

.

[waldo]

So heath care is related to Al-Queda how??

I already suggested the instigator take the healthcare discussion outside this thread... resurrect the last go around in the 'American Health Disadvantage' thread. Apparently, he doesn't want anything to do with that thread! Go figure.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yet another Canadian author has taken aim at 'medicare' in Jeffrey Simpson's Chronic Condition. His first 'takeaway' is to stop comparing Canada's broken system to the U.S., and start comparing to similar systems in the U.K., Australia, and Sweden. The wait time challenges and blocked hospitals are a symptom of a larger problem that unremarkably comes down to money, money that is readily available through some form of private pay and/or user fees.

IMHO, Al Qaeda laughs at such long wait times for simple health care procedures.

[bush_cheney2004]

I already suggested the instigator take the healthcare discussion outside this thread... resurrect the last go around in the 'American Health Disadvantage' thread. Apparently, he doesn't want anything to do with that thread! Go figure.

I agree....I don't know why another member derailed this thread, but since the topic was engaged, the battle shall be enjoined.

[Guest American Woman]

I'm not asking you to compare anything. I simply asked you to substantiate your claim that "tens of thousands" of Canadians regularly travel to the U.S. for healthcare purposes. Apparently, you're not prepared to offer that substantiation.

Try reading what you originally said and then what I said in response - keeping in mind that I don't play your games. So I'll just repeat now that comparing one province to an entire country, comparing that one province in regards to going to the U.S. with the entire other country going everywhere in the world, is quite humorous.

Again. YOU are comparing hundreds of thousands of a population of a country with hundreds of millions to a country with tens of millions population where tens of thousands of the population seeks health care outside of the country - and THAT country has 'health care for all,' plus many buy insurance on top of it, so said tens of thousands have already paid for health care at home - yet are choosing to seek it elsewhere. (Except for those who need care not available in Canada, as I said....they are "choosing" to go to the U.S. over no care available within Canada). Why, oh why, is that?

IMHO, Al Qaeda laughs at such long wait times for simple health care procedures.

Edited May 19, 2013 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

I don't agree about the *only* nation part.

Anyone with any knowledge of their own country, never mind the rest of the world, wouldn't. - And that's not even taking into account the comparing of a nation with a population of 312 million to nations the size of one of our states; not to mention the ignorant "everyone else pays or dies" scenario. Furthermore, Canadians pay - it's not as if there's a Heath Care Fairy paying for Canadians' health care needs.

Edited May 19, 2013 by American Woman

[Argus]

I don't agree about the *only* nation part. One of my Brit friends was recently complaining about the existence in England of families who have not worked for generations. One wonders if the immigrant slums around Paris (the ones where a near war erupted a few years ago) will result in the same. One could make the argument that Canada's Indian reserves have an underclass of permanently unemployable people.

I don't discount there are such groups in some parts of Europe, but nothing on the sheer scale of the US. Have you seen Detroit lately? This is a city where they've announced they're going to stop powering the streetlights in a big chunk of the city because there's nothing but block on block on block of abandoned homes. There are some parts of European cities that are dangerous, too, but as dangerous as American ghetoes? Tn there's the Baltimore area, and Oakland...

[Argus]

Ever been to Brazil ? Go tell them how good they have it compared to the U.S.

You're bragging that you've got it better than third world countries?

[Argus]

No, the fact is that it is easy to find Canadians who do/did not receive adequate health care. I have cited several such cases as reported by the CBC.

AS for the U.S. being the only nation in the "western world with an 'underclass' or permanently unemployable people", obviously you have not traveled much. Start with the Canadian Maritimes.

They're underemployed, not unemployed.

[bush_cheney2004]

You're bragging that you've got it better than third world countries?

I'm just pointing out your blatant myopia when it comes to such matters.....from grinding poverty and unemployment for North American "First Nations" to a BRIC nation like Brazil. All are "western".

I've got it better than many Canadians too....so what ?

Edited May 19, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[waldo]

I'm not asking you to compare anything. I simply asked you to substantiate your claim that "tens of thousands" of Canadians regularly travel to the U.S. for healthcare purposes. Apparently, you're not prepared to offer that substantiation.

Try reading what you originally said and then what I said in response - keeping in mind that I don't play your games. So I'll just repeat now that comparing one province to an entire country, comparing that one province in regards to going to the U.S. with the entire other country going everywhere in the world, is quite humorous.

the only one playing games is you. You don't have to compare anything... no comparisons. Simply step-up and substantiate your claim that "tens of thousands" of Canadians regularly travel to the U.S. for healthcare purposes.

like I said, you're quite the false equivalency proponent yourself! Somehow, you completely divorce yourself from the fact hundreds of thousands of Americans yearly travel outside the U.S. to meet their healthcare requirements (750,000 in 2007 per the citation I provided in the "American Health Disadvantage" thread). And look at those projections!!!... notwithstanding uncertainty as to how 'Obamacare' deployment may affect those projections - which, of course, assumes Republicans don't take control of both the U.S. House/Senate and repeal it. What was this last week... the 37th vote taken by the Republican led House to repeal Obamacare!!!

.

[waldo]

Furthermore, Canadians pay - it's not as if there's a Heath Care Fairy paying for Canadians' health care needs.

of course Canadians pay. But if you want to talk direct payments, the amounts Canadians pay are mice-nuts as compared to what Americans pay for health insurance... those Americans that can actually afford it! As for indirect payment levels, that's been discussed many times previously; most recently, in the MLW "American Health Disadvantage" thread... you know, where the U.S. pays the most for healthcare of any country in the world, and receives one of the worst health results, on average, for its citizens... experiencing higher rates of disease and injury and dying sooner than people in other high-income countries.

[waldo]

I already suggested the instigator take the healthcare discussion outside this thread... resurrect the last go around in the 'American Health Disadvantage' thread. Apparently, he doesn't want anything to do with that thread! Go figure.

I agree....I don't know why another member derailed this thread, but since the topic was engaged, the battle shall be enjoined.

no - it was you! Yes, there was a prior exchange between two others... but it was a rather innocuous broad-based reference with a budget emphasis. The real derail began when you started your standard nonsense routine. One wonders why you won't resurrect the most recent related thread, the "American Health Disadvantage" thread, rather than continue to derail this one.

[bush_cheney2004]

no - it was you! Yes, there was a prior exchange between two others... but it was a rather innocuous broad-based reference with a budget emphasis. The real derail began when you started your standard nonsense routine. One wonders why you won't resurrect the most recent related thread, the "American Health Disadvantage" thread, rather than continue to derail this one.

Standard pretzel logic we have come to expect. "IT WAS YOU"....while you persist the hijacking even further....amazing ! No wonder Al Qaeda laughs at your Triage Principles.

[Argus]

Standard pretzel logic we have come to expect. "IT WAS YOU"....while you persist the hijacking even further....amazing ! No wonder Al Qaeda laughs at your Triage Principles.

Except he's correct. There was a discussion on what society could afford in the way of health care as compared to other things society, in this case US society, affords like pets and strippers. Then you jumped in in post 76 with your standard "America is great! Canada sucks! We're better! We're better!" trolling of the type which probably got you suspended a short time back.