Al Queda laughing at American Government

[bush_cheney2004]

Except he's correct. There was a discussion on what society could afford in the way of health care as compared to other things society, in this case US society, affords like pets and strippers. Then you jumped in in post 76 with your standard "America is great! Canada sucks! We're better! We're better!" trolling of the type which probably got you suspended a short time back.

In fact it was you who escalated the health care argument, highjacking the thread as usual for more anti-American ranting. I am always too happy to engage such antics and misdirection in the spirit of good sporting fun. Going off the deep end about highest "U.S." poverty in the "western world" was just icing on the cake, quickly squelched by another member as obviously ill informed.

As for my most recent suspension, it was for a completely unrelated matter and transgression, but quite welcomed in the wake of whiner threads and posts stating that "bush_cheney get away with murder !". In fact, I am subject to the same rules as any other member.

Edited May 20, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[Rue]

Hillary Clinton is damaged goods. I would not let her anywhere near the White House ever again. She escaped responsibility over the Benghazi affair. I hope people remember this when 2016 rolls around.

Again I usually am not on Gost's side on any argument but on this one I agree. She is spent goods. She has to take direct responsibility. The buck stops with the State Deptartment's head for failing to heed advice and endangering the Ambassador.

I have a problem which I aint gonna pull punches on. The man they sent to Libya was openly gay. Anyone who understands the Muslim world knows that dealing with women as equals, let alone gays is a serious cultural issue. This idea you can waltz into a culture that is anti woman and homophobic and have Hilary and an openly gay man negotiate with you is past idiotic. The people they were trying to deal with ridicule gays and women as equals.

The State Department was in denial. Let's be blunt. They don't get it. You want to sit with an extremist Muslim you don't send a woman or a gay. You find that politically inappropriate? Tough. Golda Maier the Prime Minister of Israeland Indira Ghandi the Prime Minister of India and Margaret Thatcher of Britain, 3 of the toughest people to run countries and manage wars and terrorists and not one of them was so insecure they had a problem understanding that they put themselves to the side not out of weakness in certain situations but out of strength. You send a military man to talk to extremists. It is all they can fathom. They live in a world of black and white extreme values.

The people Israel, India, the US, Britain used behind the scenes in the shadows with these terrorists are military people. People who are not politically

appropriate-people who are without feeling-people with a cold detachment to all issues and have no perceived personality quirks that come across to terrorists as things to mock and are signs to ridicule.

That said, this man who the State Department loved was trying to be Laurence of Arabia. That was his role model. Wrong man, Wrong place.

The West has a lot of b.s.to come clean on.Sarkozy, the Italians, the British, they all kissed Ghaddafi's hand. The British PM went to Libya and kissed his friggin hand for phack's sake. Condaleeza Rice when to see Ghaddafi and he refused to shake her hand and shooed her to the side and talked only to the men in her presence. No problem.

Then you want to sit with Muslim extremists and think they will embrace you?

The Ambassador thought he was T.E.Laurence. He had insufficient body guards. He thought he was loved. He went into a culture and society

with this prissy attitude that they would love him because of who he was. Such idiocy.

Clinton and the State Department were warned about what I was saying. They were told by all kinds of intelligence agencies and leading Muslim businessmen, get this guy out before he kills himself with his messiah complex driving around Libya like some great white hope come to embrace Muslims.

Let's say it like it is. He was brutally raped. They raped him and shoved things up his butt when they killed him. He was killed in a homophobic frenzy.

Everyone pussy foots around that. Clinton and this unfortunate man did not distance their own gay identities from their work. They violated the first rule

of intelligence-do not walk in somewhere with your genitals showing.

Excuse the blunt language. You want to blame people-look to Clinton and her entourage of politically correct US ivory tower students with their

delusions you walk into the Muslim world and they will accept you as you are if you show no fear and smile.

The West was done the moment it sent all its leaders back into Libya kissing Ghaddafi's feet. From the time the West kissed his butt again, the people in Libya saw what they had to see-that the West only cared about Libya's oil and Clinton, her wonderboy, all they were there for was oil.

Libyans are a people who were captured and bullied by a mad man. They saw Western leaders kiss this man's butt. End of story. They of course turned on the pretty boy sent to patronize them.

You sit across a table from someone who has spent their whole life terrorizing or being terrorized understand one thing-they are going to be violent. They are going to see life as cheap and expendable. You are not going to be in the mood for smiling two faced salespersons.

[Pliny]

"Never waste a good crisis" - Secretary of State Hillary Clinton

President Obama is now completely consumed by the office, something he could not conceive as a "community organizer" or even presidential candidate. And it is absolutely consistent with all presidents who have come before him. Lots more Americans already ask him harder questions than Canadians.

As well they should.

I believe Rahm Emmanuel and not Hillary made that statement.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Pliny

[Pliny]

Again I usually am not on Gost's side on any argument but on this one I agree. She is spent goods. She has to take direct responsibility. The buck stops with the State Deptartment's head for failing to heed advice and endangering the Ambassador.

I have a problem which I aint gonna pull punches on. The man they sent to Libya was openly gay. Anyone who understands the Muslim world knows that dealing with women as equals, let alone gays is a serious cultural issue. This idea you can waltz into a culture that is anti woman and homophobic and have Hilary and an openly gay man negotiate with you is past idiotic. The people they were trying to deal with ridicule gays and women as equals.........

Some salient points made there that I can agree with.

[Argus]

Again I usually am not on Gost's side on any argument but on this one I agree. She is spent goods. She has to take direct responsibility.

Not a big fan of Hilary Clinton but... responsibility for what, exactly? It hasn't been established that anyone did anything wrong.

The Ambassador thought he was T.E.Laurence. He had insufficient body guards. He thought he was loved. He went into a culture and society with this prissy attitude that they would love him because of who he was. Such idiocy.

Clinton and the State Department were warned about what I was saying. They were told by all kinds of intelligence agencies and leading Muslim businessmen, get this guy out before he kills himself with his messiah complex driving around Libya like some great white hope come to embrace Muslims.

Funny, from all I've heard he actually WAS very well liked by the locals. Do you think extremist Muslims would have been more enthusiastic about the man if he'd been, say, a churchgoing Christian Republican? Somehow I have my doubts. I think they'd be delighted to kill any American ambassador, regardless of his or her gender, religion or orientation.

[Guest American Woman]

Not a big fan of Hilary Clinton but... responsibility for what, exactly? It hasn't been established that anyone did anything wrong.

Funny, from all I've heard he actually WAS very well liked by the locals. Do you think extremist Muslims would have been more enthusiastic about the man if he'd been, say, a churchgoing Christian Republican? Somehow I have my doubts. I think they'd be delighted to kill any American ambassador, regardless of his or her gender, religion or orientation.

Aside from the opinion re: Hillary, I've had these same thoughts.

Edited May 21, 2013 by American Woman

[Pliny]

Not a big fan of Hilary Clinton but... responsibility for what, exactly? It hasn't been established that anyone did anything wrong.

Responsibility for what occurs on her watch. Did the death of an Ambassador and three others have nothing to do with the State Department? Or was it the responsibility of the British to watch over American Ambassadors or perhaps Santa Claus? Or is it just...Oh well...s**t happens!

The investigation is on and in the meantime she should take some responsibility for what are her responsibilities.

Were the CEOs of BP held responsible at all for oil spills in the Gulf before it was established what occurred or did they just say, what difference does it make? We need to find out what happened and make sure it doesn't happen again.

Funny, from all I've heard he actually WAS very well liked by the locals. Do you think extremist Muslims would have been more enthusiastic about the man if he'd been, say, a churchgoing Christian Republican? Somehow I have my doubts. I think they'd be delighted to kill any American ambassador, regardless of his or her gender, religion or orientation.

Being liked by the locals doesn't win any points with Islamic fundamentalist terrorists.

[Argus]

Responsibility for what occurs on her watch. Did the death of an Ambassador and three others have nothing to do with the State Department? Or was it the responsibility of the British to watch over American Ambassadors or perhaps Santa Claus? Or is it just...Oh well...s**t happens!

Yes, it does. And no one can prevent it from happening occasionally. Was it Clinton's fault some nut jobs rammed an American warship with a boat bomb? Was it Reagan's lack of effort that got the US embassy in Beirut blown to pieces? Were the embassy bombings in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam the fault of George Bush? S**t does happen and you can't always foresee or prevent it.

Being liked by the locals doesn't win any points with Islamic fundamentalist terrorists.

Nothing will. So it's not the job of ambassadors to win favour with Islamic terrorists, but to win favour with the locals.

[Bitsy]

Clinton and the State Department were warned about what I was saying. They were told by all kinds of intelligence agencies and leading Muslim businessmen, get this guy out before he kills himself with his messiah complex driving around Libya like some great white hope come to embrace Muslims.

Let's say it like it is. He was brutally raped. They raped him and shoved things up his butt when they killed him. He was killed in a homophobic frenzy.

Everyone pussy foots around that. Clinton and this unfortunate man did not distance their own gay identities from their work. They violated the first rule

of intelligence-do not walk in somewhere with your genitals showing.

Excuse the blunt language. You want to blame people-look to Clinton and her entourage of politically correct US ivory tower students with their

delusions you walk into the Muslim world and they will accept you as you are if you show no fear and smile.

I don’t mind your blunt talk but I would like to see a legitimate source that substantiates the above claims.

The Washington Times who foolishly published the rape story without source checking was forced to print this update and remover their original story.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2012/sep/13/picket-report-murdered-us-ambassador-libya-reporte/

[Guest American Woman]

I don’t mind your blunt talk but I would like to see a legitimate source that substantiates the above claims.

The Washington Times who foolishly published the rape story without source checking was forced to print this update and remover their original story.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2012/sep/13/picket-report-murdered-us-ambassador-libya-reporte/

No U.S. media sources are saying that he was raped. At best it appears to be undetermined. http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/stevens.asp Was he even gay? I can't find any reliable sources confirming that he was. http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/ambassador-chris-stevens-the-hero-we-never-knew/politics/2012/09/17/49123

According to Salon:

The gay rumors seem to have originated on Hillbuzz.com, the website of Kevin DuJan, who also believes that President Obama is gay. DuJan uses the very, very shaky sourcing of a “Serbian consulate employee [who] identified himself to me as ‘Dino’ and wouldn’t give me any more of a name than that, but told me it was no secret that Chris Stevens was gay and that ‘it was stupid to send him to Libya as the ambassador when he was a known homosexual.’”

The story was picked up by a number of right-wing blogs, including Breitbart.com, which offers this explanation for why Stevens being gay would be at all relevant: “It just seems like one more way the Obama administration needlessly enraged the passions of protesters in that part of the world.” A blogger for the Examiner even speculates that Stevens was sent by Hillary Clinton as an “intentional provocation” to Libya.

And as you said:

... the claim that Stevens was raped... seems to have originated from a story on the Lebanese news outlet Tayyar.org that erroneously cites the AFP, and that was picked up by the Washington Times. The AFP told TWT that the “report falsely quoted our news agency and has no truth whatsover to it.”

[Pliny]

Yes, it does. And no one can prevent it from happening occasionally. Was it Clinton's fault some nut jobs rammed an American warship with a boat bomb? Was it Reagan's lack of effort that got the US embassy in Beirut blown to pieces? Were the embassy bombings in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam the fault of George Bush? S**t does happen and you can't always foresee or prevent it.

The problem is not primarily that it happened but that it perhaps, if all facts were known, shouldn't have ended as it did. The main problem is she lied about why it happened out of political convenience. Totally irresponsible.

There wouldn't be any concern if all that could have been done was done and no one told any lies afterward. It appears that there may have been some negligence and there was definitely some fabricating of facts.

[Argus]

The problem is not primarily that it happened but that it perhaps, if all facts were known, shouldn't have ended as it did. The main problem is she lied about why it happened out of political convenience. Totally irresponsible.

There wouldn't be any concern if all that could have been done was done and no one told any lies afterward.

Well, then, I guess you should have no concern. There's no evidence anyone lied afterward.

[GostHacked]

Well, then, I guess you should have no concern. There's no evidence anyone lied afterward.

I guess as long as they only lie once, then it's alright?

[Bitsy]

No U.S. media sources are saying that he was raped. At best it appears to be undetermined. http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/stevens.asp Was he even gay? I can't find any reliable sources confirming that he was. http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/ambassador-chris-stevens-the-hero-we-never-knew/politics/2012/09/17/49123

According to Salon:

The gay rumors seem to have originated on Hillbuzz.com, the website of Kevin DuJan, who also believes that President Obama is gay. DuJan uses the very, very shaky sourcing of a “Serbian consulate employee [who] identified himself to me as ‘Dino’ and wouldn’t give me any more of a name than that, but told me it was no secret that Chris Stevens was gay and that ‘it was stupid to send him to Libya as the ambassador when he was a known homosexual.’”

The story was picked up by a number of right-wing blogs, including Breitbart.com, which offers this explanation for why Stevens being gay would be at all relevant: “It just seems like one more way the Obama administration needlessly enraged the passions of protesters in that part of the world.” A blogger for the Examiner even speculates that Stevens was sent by Hillary Clinton as an “intentional provocation” to Libya.

And as you said:

... the claim that Stevens was raped... seems to have originated from a story on the Lebanese news outlet Tayyar.org that erroneously cites the AFP, and that was picked up by the Washington Times. The AFP told TWT that the “report falsely quoted our news agency and has no truth whatsover to it.”

Thanks, that is the same reporting that I have read.

[Pliny]

There's no evidence anyone lied afterward.

It was not a spontaneous demonstration as the result of a video as proclaimed.

[Argus]

It was not a spontaneous demonstration as the result of a video as proclaimed.

No, but it was easy to jump to that conclusion given events of the day. Being mistaken is not lying.

And really, just where is the gain in them 'lying' about this? Are they in some way absolved of any responsibilities for the protection of their personnel if it's a spontaneous attack vs a planned attack?

There is no political or personal gain in lying here.

[Pliny]

No, but it was easy to jump to that conclusion given events of the day. Being mistaken is not lying.

It was an utter fabrication, not simply being mistaken.

And really, just where is the gain in them 'lying' about this? Are they in some way absolved of any responsibilities for the protection of their personnel if it's a spontaneous attack vs a planned attack?

There is no political or personal gain in lying here.

Indeed there was. If you remember the Obama campaign narrative of the last election that Al-Qaeda was on the run, a terrorist attack by Al=Qaeda killing an Ambassador would not sit well with the narrative. The media was obliging and willingly accepted the story of the You tube video. Hillary's chances of getting the Democratic nomination in 2016 wou ld have been negatively impacted as well, if the whole truth of the incident were known. So there definitely was political and personal gain to be had by making up a "spontaneous demonstration" story. Political and personal gain for Obama in the election and political gain for Ms. Clinton in 2016. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like it is turning out well for either as lying generally becomes a cross to bear along with the incident.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Pliny

[danielrw]

"We did not find it difficult to deal with Bush and his administration, because it is similar to regimes in our countries - both types include many who are full of arrogance and greed." -Osama Bin Laden

[bush_cheney2004]

More fun with Osama quotes:

"To kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque [Jerusalem] and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim." - Osama bin Laden

http://www.allgreatquotes.com/osama_binladen_quotes.shtml