Liberal-New Democrat Alliance to Topple Harper

[Fletch 27]

Ah yes, The recession again..."Had nothing to do with it"

Oh, right, the recession forced them to spend as they did, not the opposition, because recessions are sentient things that can make decisions and tell people to follow them.

It seems like you forgot about a certain little incident that took place in the middle of that recession, a fiscal update that was on 27 November 2008 tabled in the House of Commons. That fiscal update proposed some serious cutbacks in government spending, selling Crown assets, etc. and that fiscal update was rejected by the opposition, in part, because it failed to provide stimulus spending in order to mitigate the financial crisis. A parliamentary dispute was triggered, the opposition threatened to pull down the government, the governor general got involved, there was a prorogation of parliament, and then all returned in early 2009, at which time a new budget was presented... with some $40 billion in stimulus spending. Harper bent to the opposition's wishes to keep his job.

[g_bambino]

Ah yes, The recession again..."Had nothing to do with it"

I guess you just chose to not read what I wrote.

[Boges]

If by chance Harper did get another majority is will probably be for the 250,000 yearly immigrants, they have let in since 2006 and that a lot of graceful voters.

That was the whole thing about Liberals before 2011. They thought they had the immigrant vote locked down. The Conservatives made a huge effort to reach out to ethnic communities that are actually far more socially conservative.

[Fletch 27]

I did, and to reiterate, the Recession was the "root cause" of the spending... We were going to spend anyhow... Harper alone or by the demands of the opposition... And the Opposition now should be ashamed of themselves for bashing the spending and action plan. Does it make sense in your opinion to bash this spending or in your opinion, is the opposition treating Canadians as "stupid" or forgetfull

I guess you just chose to not read what I wrote.

[PIK]

What is it about Harper that is radical and dangerous?

That is the question they can't answer.

[PIK]

Have a look at the latest polls, the Cons are significantly behind.

Lenny the election is 2 years away, polls means nothing at this piont. But if you want we can look at the poll of who is better at handling the economy, harper hands down.

[Fletch 27]

Poll mean everything... LOL... Here's a nice one..

http://www.ipsos-na.com/news-polls/pressrelease.aspx?id=3783

Ottawa, ON – A new Ipsos Reid poll conducted on behalf of CanWest News Service and Global Television finds that the Conservatives under Stephen Harper have fallen slightly behind the Liberals, slipping two points to 33% support nationally among decided voters.

I cant ever remember hearing of a prime-minister Dion... Where was I at??

Lenny the election is 2 years away, polls means nothing at this piont. But if you want we can look at the poll of who is better at handling the economy, harper hands down.

[g_bambino]

We were going to spend anyhow... Harper alone or by the demands of the opposition... And the Opposition now should be ashamed of themselves for bashing the spending and action plan.

I just pointed out to you that the 2008 money bill was rejected by the opposition because it didn't spend enough on stimulus.The opposition threatened to bring down the government and the Conservatives came again in 2009 with a money bill that proposed $40 billion in stimulus spending. It's pretty clear the Conservatives did in 2009 precisely what you complained about the Liberals in Ontario doing now: spending to keep the opposition happy so they don't vote the government down.

[ed.: c/e]

Edited May 9, 2013 by g_bambino

[Fletch 27]

I understand that point... They wanted MORE money spent and now they Cry foul...

IMO, in the weeks off on holidays, Numerous factors arose if you recall.. Parliament was OUT when the housing figures came out from the US, as did the Jobs figures from the US.. In this time, Harper studied the situation and could have actually made the Opp look HORRIBLE but he chose not.

This could be the reason behind his growing popularity in the following Election if you recall.. In my mind, a higher amount of votes means more people favor him.. Or maybe my logic is waaay out of wack here.. colour me crazy....

I just pointed out to you that the 2008 money bill was rejected by the opposition because it didn't spend enough on stimulus.The opposition threatened to bring down the government and the Conservatives came again in 2009 with a money bill that proposed $40 billion in stimulus spending. It's pretty clear the Conservatives did in 2009 precisely what you complained about the Liberals in Ontario doing now: spending to keep the opposition happy so they don't vote the government down.

[ed.: c/e]

[MadX]

Where's the guarantee of that? It doesn't matter what percentage of the overall voting populace thinks of Harper now; in an election, it's who wins in each riding that matters, and there's nothing to say the Conservative candidate wouldn't win against that one NDP or Liberal opponent he or she faces.

They won't in every riding but there are many ridings across the country that Tories won where the combined Liberal/NDP vote was better. If the Liberals and New Democrats co-operate, Harper will be gone.

[MadX]

Bad idea, IMO.

I am planning on voting Liberal.

With your proposed plan I would vote CPC as I dislike NDP policies more than I dislike Harper. I have a feeling that more than half of Liberal voters would feel this way giving Harper >50% of the popular vote.

I think most Liberals would prefer the NDP to the Tories and almost all New Democrats would prefer Liberals to the Tories. Some right-leaning Liberals may bleed over to the Tories but a coalition would do better than each party battling it out their own. I don't know why you hate NDP policies so much. They are a centre-left party concerned with social justice. You'd prefer Harper to that?

[MadX]

That is the question they can't answer.

I can answer it. Harper is highly radical and dangerous. He was once associated with the white-power movement, he has been quoted on record saying he would like the Canada Health Act scrapped, and he is making unnecessary and harmful changes to our EI program. What even gives him the right to change it without asking our permission first. The government doesn't even pay for the program, the workers do. He would have sent our soldiers into Iraq if he was Prime Minister in 2003. He interferes in labour disputes and then rules in the favour of employers. He is selling us out to China with the secret deal FIPA. There are many more as well, join our forum at http://www.antiharper.com/index.php and read for yourself all the radical things he's done over the last 7 years, the last 2 in particular.

[jacee]

I can answer it. Harper is highly radical and dangerous. He was once associated with the white-power movement, he has been quoted on record saying he would like the Canada Health Act scrapped, and he is making unnecessary and harmful changes to our EI program. What even gives him the right to change it without asking our permission first. The government doesn't even pay for the program, the workers do. He would have sent our soldiers into Iraq if he was Prime Minister in 2003. He interferes in labour disputes and then rules in the favour of employers. He is selling us out to China with the secret deal FIPA. There are many more as well, join our forum at http://www.antiharper.com/index.php and read for yourself all the radical things he's done over the last 7 years, the last 2 in particular.

And he can't even manage our money: $3.1b lost ... or misappropriated ... He just doesn't know where our money went!!

Edited May 13, 2013 by jacee

[jacee]

I think most Liberals would prefer the NDP to the Tories and almost all New Democrats would prefer Liberals to the Tories. Some right-leaning Liberals may bleed over to the Tories but a coalition would do better than each party battling it out their own. I don't know why you hate NDP policies so much. They are a centre-left party concerned with social justice. You'd prefer Harper to that?

I think you miss the fact that Liberals represent big business, just like Conservatives. They give handouts - charity - to the 'less fortunate' and placate the middle class with nicey nicey phrases, but they do not truly empower anyone but the rich business class.

They're much more like Conservatives. In fact they're all neo-liberals, not even similar to social democrats.

Liberals would love to steal votes from NDP, but collaboration between these two is very unlikely, and wouldn't work out the way you might think.

People wouldn't like that collaboration, and might vote for Harper in protest.

[TimG]

Harper is highly radical and dangerous.

The only dangerous people are buffoons like you who are unwilling to accept people who disagree with you as human beings. You feel a need to dehumanize them and turn them into comic book villains so you can feel better about yourself. People who think like you are the people who have started every genocide and war that this planet has seen. I am sure you disavow physical violence yourself but irrational hatred like what you preach is what turns people to violence. If you really believed in the non-violence that you claim you would attempt to understand people that you disagree with instead of engaging in nonsensical smear campaigns. Edited May 13, 2013 by TimG

[jacee]

The only dangerous people are buffoons like you who are unwilling to accept people who disagree with you as human beings. You feel a need to dehumanize them and turn them into comic book villains so you can feel better about yourself. People who think like you are the people who have started every genocide and war that this planet has seen. I am sure you disavow physical violence yourself but irrational hatred like what you preach is what turns people to violence. If you really believed in the non-violence that you claim you would attempt to understand people that you disagree with instead of engaging in nonsensical smear campaigns.

That's a whole load of personal attacks.

Suggests you are totally devoid of any real argument.

And how could you possibly defend a PM who lost $3.1b of our money, and can't be bothered looking for it!

[TimG]

That's a whole load of personal attacks.

Such a response is perfectly appropriate when when dealing with an unhinged conspiracy theorist that thinks Harper is a white supremisist. It is not as if he is going to listen to rational explanation about why his claims are complete nonsense.

Your obsession with the 3.1 billion is tiresome. AFAIK, the government is looking for the money but it is not easy given the fact that a large portion of it was spent by the liberals over 10 years ago.

Here is a good article that explains why the mistake happened and how it can be fixed:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/05/12/pressure-mounts-to-reform-opaque-financial-system/

It also makes it clear that this is a bureaucracy problem and any government in power would have been blindsided by it. What the Conservatives have to do now is prove they can fix the structural problems that led to this.

Edited May 13, 2013 by TimG

[jacee]

Such a response is perfectly appropriate when when dealing with an unhinged conspiracy theorist that thinks Harper is a white supremisist. It is not as if he is going to listen to rational explanation about why his claims are complete nonsense.

No it isn't appropriate. And it does display a lack of any valid argument on your part.

Your obsession with the 3.1 billion is tiresome. AFAIK, the government is looking for the money but it is not easy given the fact that a large portion of it was spent by the liberals over 10 years ago.

BS If they could have hung it on the Liberals they would have done it long ago. No they haven't said they're looking for it:They just said "There are no documents."

Here is a good article that explains why the mistake happened and how it can be fixed:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/05/12/pressure-mounts-to-reform-opaque-financial-system/

It also makes it clear that this is a bureaucracy problem and any government in power would have been blindsided by it.

What other government has ever lost $3.1b ?

What the Conservatives have to do now is prove they can fix the structural problems that led to this.

No, what Harper has to do is find the money! and tell us how he spent it.

Truth: Harper is a control freak and an economist. He doesn't lose money. He just doesn't want us to know how he spent $3.1b of our money.

He doesn't have that choice.

Chretien spent $100m on golf balls, and Tories had apopleptic fits.

Now you just say "Oh well, maybe Harper'll do better next time."

Not good enough.

Edited May 13, 2013 by jacee

[TimG]

He just doesn't want us to know how he spent $3.1b of our money.

He doesn't have that choice.

You have a link that explains the issues with the bureaucracy yet you completely ignore it and simply repeat your irrelevant talking points. Get back to me when you want to engage your brain and address the points made. Edited May 13, 2013 by TimG

[jacee]

You have a link that explains the issues with the bureaucracy yet you completely ignore it and simply repeat your irrelevant talking points. Get back to me when you want to engage your brain and address the points made.

When else in history has the government lost track of billions of dollars of our money?

Why is the Harper government the only one to date to show such blatant incompetence as to 'lose track' of billions of dollars?

but there is no legally-binding commitment to spend money on particular programs cash can be moved around by ministers without any scrutiny or consent.

Ahhh ... so the ministers 'lost track' of the money.

Why did no Liberal ministers ever lose track of such sums?

Harper and his ministers didn't lose track of anything.

They moved money around and spent it however they liked.

Since there's no indication Harper is angrily demanding that his ministers account for the money - he's known for such tirades when something is done without his permission - we can conclude that whatever the money was spent on was done with Harper's permission and most likely on his orders and he knows exactly where it went but refuses to tell us.

Where do you think Harper spent $3.1b of our money without telling us?

Maybe it went to the Conservative Party?

Maybe oilsands companies got some bonus corporate welfare?

Maybe it paid off Conservative backers?

WE JUST DON'T KNOW BECAUSE HARPER WON'T TELL US!

Because there's no protocol that says he has to and Harper is taking full advantage of that and refusing to tell us where he spent it.

But you can bet he knows exactly where it went, unless you think Harper is a complete ditz about money management.

Harper just doesn't think it's any of our business where he spends OUR money.

And you Harper fans think that's ok?

I'll bet you wouldn't think it was ok if it was Liberals or NDP lost our money.

[TimG]

When else in history has the government lost track of billions of dollars of our money?

You are still refusing to read and understand the link provided which explains the nature of the bureaucratic system that is in place. You are wasting bandwidth responding as long as you refuse to look at the issues and simply repeat meaningless talking points.

[PIK]

Jacee you want to read about real scandals , google chretien scandals or even better google ont liberal goverment scandals. Thwn you will have a understanding on what a scandal is.

[eyeball]

The only dangerous people are buffoons like you who are unwilling to accept people who disagree with you as human beings. You feel a need to dehumanize them and turn them into comic book villains so you can feel better about yourself. People who think like you are the people who have started every genocide and war that this planet has seen. I am sure you disavow physical violence yourself but irrational hatred like what you preach is what turns people to violence. If you really believed in the non-violence that you claim you would attempt to understand people that you disagree with instead of engaging in nonsensical smear campaigns.

Ever think of following your own advice Tim?

[Keepitsimple]

That's a whole load of personal attacks.

Suggests you are totally devoid of any real argument.

And how could you possibly defend a PM who lost $3.1b of our money, and can't be bothered looking for it!

Jacee - how old are you - 14? You owe it yourself - as part of growing up - to examine both sides of any argument......not to just naively spew out snippets of partisan rhetoric.

[jacee]

Jacee - how old are you - 14? You owe it yourself - as part of growing up - to examine both sides of any argument......not to just naively spew out snippets of partisan rhetoric.

personal attack noted.

I'm old enough to know that no government in our history has ever lost track of $3.1b of OUR money and gotten away with it!!!

And they won't this time either.