Ontario Transit Debate

[Archanfel]

Why?

I don't drive so a gas tax wouldn't impact me. A one per cent across the board HST increase would be great. As for being able to afford it: we're literally talking nickles and dimes here.

Because he thinks so. What you think have nothing to do with him.

[Boges]

I don't drive so a gas tax wouldn't impact me. A one per cent across the board HST increase would be great. As for being able to afford it: we're literally talking nickles and dimes here.

It doesn't effect you if you don't purchase consumer goods that make their way to you through the use of some sort of gasoline. I'm pretty sure you do though.

I'm confident in assuming whatever reduction in congestion won't be outweighed by the additional cost of doing business if an additional gas tax is put into place.

Also perhaps an increase to fares isn't a revenue tool but the TTC might end up increasing fares anyway if the cost of fuel goes up.

[Boges]

Also to say we're literally talking about nickels and dimes is a bit disingenuous. On a 50L tank you'd pay an extra $2.50. If you fill up once a week, that's over a $100 a year EXTRA just to drive to work. They also want charge people to park at GO Train Stations. So you're punishing people that do choose to reduce congestion because they may not live close to a station.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Boges

[Archanfel]

Also to say we're literally talking about nickels and dimes is a bit disingenuous. On a 50L tank you'd pay an extra $2.50. If you fill up once a week, that's over a $100 year just to drive to work. They also want charge people to park at GO Train Stations. So you're punishing people that do choose to reduce congestion because they may not live close to a station.

Don't we already have a number, which is $477/year on average. That's certainly not nickels and dimes. I love how certain people frame it as $1.30 per day. Used car people do that with bi-weekly payment rather than monthly. Who are they trying to trick?

[Boges]

Don't we already have a number, which is $477/year on average. That's certainly not nickels and dimes. I love how certain people frame it as $1.30 per day. Used car people do that with bi-weekly payment rather than monthly. Who are they trying to trick?

That's average. They say a family that has 2 cars might pay upwards of $900.

[Black Dog]

It doesn't effect you if you don't purchase consumer goods that make their way to you through the use of some sort of gasoline. I'm pretty sure you do though.

I'm confident in assuming whatever reduction in congestion won't be outweighed by the additional cost of doing business if an additional gas tax is put into place.

Also perhaps an increase to fares isn't a revenue tool but the TTC might end up increasing fares anyway if the cost of fuel goes up.

I think of it as a simple transaction. Pay more, get better transit in return. As opposed to doing nothing, letting things continue to decay, and paying in other ways such as loss productivity, stress, increased commute times.

Also to say we're literally talking about nickels and dimes is a bit disingenuous. On a 50L tank you'd pay an extra $2.50. If you fill up once a week, that's over a $100 a year just to drive to work. They also want charge people to park at GO Train Stations. So you're punishing people that do choose to reduce congestion because they may not live close to a station.

I guess that's the difference. You see taxes as punitive instead of transactional.

[Black Dog]

Don't we already have a number, which is $477/year on average. That's certainly not nickels and dimes. I love how certain people frame it as $1.30 per day. Used car people do that with bi-weekly payment rather than monthly. Who are they trying to trick?

$477 a year is $40 a month. I spend $40 a month on coffee without even noticing and I'm not even close to well off.

[Boges]

I guess that's the difference. You see taxes as punitive instead of transactional.

But under this plan, the people that stand to pay the most benefit the least. Metrolinx has already admitted they only see a 5 minute average improvement to commute times.

What about those that drive but don't contribute to congestion?

That's why it baffles me that they didn't recommend any toll roads.

[Archanfel]

$477 a year is $40 a month. I spend $40 a month on coffee without even noticing and I'm not even close to well off.

As I said, people like to do this.

If you think $40 is nothing, let's assume you invest this $477 a year for 40 years with a moderate 6% return. You will have $78,250 more in your retirement fund. Pretty noticable if you ask me.

See, we can play this both ways.

p.s. I love how financial planners like to do this, they will assume you invest it for 100 years at 12% return, that would be $3.72 million. You would be very well off to not notice that.

[GostHacked]

Public transportation is the way to go. Cheaper, faster, more comfortable. Cars are a big waste of money and are endangering our children's future

Cheaper yes. Faster, no. Comfortable, questionable.

[GostHacked]

It doesn't effect you if you don't purchase consumer goods that make their way to you through the use of some sort of gasoline. I'm pretty sure you do though.

I'm confident in assuming whatever reduction in congestion won't be outweighed by the additional cost of doing business if an additional gas tax is put into place.

Also perhaps an increase to fares isn't a revenue tool but the TTC might end up increasing fares anyway if the cost of fuel goes up.

If the fares are not enough to cover the costs, then increase them and have riders pay for it. I do not want my taxes going to subsidize public transportation if I have to pay to get on the bus as well.

[GostHacked]

But under this plan, the people that stand to pay the most benefit the least. Metrolinx has already admitted they only see a 5 minute average improvement to commute times.

What about those that drive but don't contribute to congestion?

That's why it baffles me that they didn't recommend any toll roads.

Hopefully I wont have to pay a toll just to get out of my driveway.

[Boges]

Hopefully I wont have to pay a toll just to get out of my driveway.

One of the rejected tools was just that. They wanted people to have a GPS tracking every km you drive and toll you accordingly.

When you think about the increased fuel efficiency of cars. The return on the gas tax might diminish over time and they'll have to look for more tools.

Why do you think the government doesn't advocate for cars that run on Natural Gas? There's no dedicated tax for that so governments wouldn't benefit.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Boges

[Archanfel]

One of the rejected tools was just that. They wanted people to have a GPS tracking every km you drive and toll you accordingly.

When you think about the increased fuel efficiency of cars. The return on the gas tax might diminish over time and they'll have to look for more tools.

Why do you think the government doesn't advocate for cars that run on Natural Gas? There's no dedicated tax for that so governments wouldn't benefit.

Haha. Privacy issue aside, that's actualy not a bad idea. However, pedestrian and cyclists need to do the same and the tax should be dedicated to that particular section of the road. All other taxes for the road should be abolished.

[Boges]

Apparently the Wynne government doesn't have the power to raise the HST without permission from the Fed.

I doubt the Harper government wants a tax increase like that on its hands especially since the 905 is the region that very much contributed to their majority government.

[Black Dog]

If the fares are not enough to cover the costs, then increase them and have riders pay for it. I do not want my taxes going to subsidize public transportation if I have to pay to get on the bus as well.

So drive people who choose transit away and force those who have no alternative to pay even more. Then watch as ridership drops, leaving you short of the anticipated revenue needed to actually expand transit.

[Boges]

So drive people who choose transit away and force those who have no alternative to pay even more. Then watch as ridership drops, leaving you short of the anticipated revenue needed to actually expand transit.

Also, all public transit is subsidised. So expecting fares to cover 100% of the cost is unrealistic.

That being said, when you talk about nickel and dimes, a small surcharge dedicated to transit improvement might not have been a horrible idea. Perhaps an extra dollar for a monthly pass or something like that.

Not sure why Metrolinx completely ignored that strategy.

[Black Dog]

Also, all public transit is subsidised. So expecting fares to cover 100% of the cost is unrealistic.

Also the TTC is one of the least, if not the least, subsidized transit system of any major city.

That being said, when you talk about nickel and dimes, a small surcharge dedicated to transit improvement might not have been a horrible idea. Perhaps an extra dollar for a monthly pass or something like that.

Not sure why Metrolinx completely ignored that strategy.

Probably for the reason I outlined above.

[GostHacked]

One of the rejected tools was just that. They wanted people to have a GPS tracking every km you drive and toll you accordingly.

Hearing the CBC on the way in, now they want to make 174 a toll road for people not living in the Ottawa area. They are riding the road for free apparently, which seems to be really messed up when you think of it.

Imagine paying tolls wherever you go. And when switching to a new highway, a new toll will be charged against you. Welcome To Ottawa, 4.99/KM

When you think about the increased fuel efficiency of cars. The return on the gas tax might diminish over time and they'll have to look for more tools.

The rising price of gas has counteracted the fuel efficiency and the government makes their money in all cases. It's how they use those taxes which never seem enough, and the cost of any project ALWAYS goes over budget. The tax system is broken or the people running it are corrupt, if we cannot pay for things through taxes, what the hell is going on with the money the government makes off taxes?

Why do you think the government doesn't advocate for cars that run on Natural Gas? There's no dedicated tax for that so governments wouldn't benefit.

Government only supports something they can tax and make money off of. If there is no tax for natural gas, then they do not make any money. But what would a tax on natural gas accomplish? What about electric cars? I guess electricity is taxed.

[Boges]

Government only supports something they can tax and make money off of. If there is no tax for natural gas, then they do not make any money. But what would a tax on natural gas accomplish? What about electric cars? I guess electricity is taxed.

HST is tacked onto hydro and natural gas. But with gasoline they first add a gas tax Then put on the HST. A tax on a tax.

You couldn't get away with doing that with natural gas because people also use it to heat their homes.

[Boges]

Probably for the reason I outlined above.

That may be true for people that use regional transit. Where they make the choice to use transit over a car. But that's already very expensive. Charging people for parking at the station might as well be like increasing the fares.

But with the TTC I'd imagine people who use it don't have viable alternatives. And if they're too poor to afford a marginal surcharge for direct transit improvement I'd imagine there will be ways to recoupe that extra cost with certain rebates. Ei. The HST rebate low income people get.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Boges

[GostHacked]

That may be true for people that use regional transit. Where they make the choice to use transit over a car. But that's already very expensive. Charging people for parking at the station might as well be like increasing the fares.

But with the TTC I'd imagine people who use it don't have viable alternatives. And if they're too poor to afford a marginal surcharge for direct transit improvement I'd imagine there will be ways to recoupe that extra cost with certain rebates. Ei. The HST rebate low income people get.

IN many cases here in Ottawa we also have park and rides. So people take their car to the station, park the car and then take the bus downtown. So they are paying for everything twice.

[Black Dog]

That may be true for people that use regional transit. Where they make the choice to use transit over a car. But that's already very expensive. Charging people for parking at the station might as well be like increasing the fares.

But with the TTC I'd imagine people who use it don't have viable alternatives. And if they're too poor to afford a marginal surcharge for direct transit improvement I'd imagine there will be ways to recoupe that extra cost with certain rebates. Ei. The HST rebate low income people get.

I don't think so. The TTC is overcpacity right now: do you think those are mostly poor people?

[Boges]

I don't think so. The TTC is overcpacity right now: do you think those are mostly poor people?

No but I'd imagine standing for 10 to 15 minutes on a crowded bus or subway car is better than driving within the city and paying to park.

[Archanfel]

No but I'd imagine standing for 10 to 15 minutes on a crowded bus or subway car is better than driving within the city and paying to park.

Not necessarily. For Toronto at least, very few people can afford houses right on subway lines, so it's more like 1 hour across several buses. In fact, very few people can afford houses in Toronto period, so one has to be pay both TTC and regional transit. It's both slower and more expensive than driving (not counting insurance and maintenance).

Another issue is once someone drove a car, he/she has to be continuously insured to get a good rate. That stopped a lot of people from getting rid of their cars even if they don't have to use it all that much.

I still think it's best that TTC provides free parking to drivers at Finch station and other terminals. Go already does that. Another thing I like about the YRT is that you can use a ticket for two hours rather than having to use two tickets for a return trip to a supermarket.