Canadian Military or Foreign Aid

[Guest Derek L]

Derek, I am interested in how you rate the value for our taxpayer dollar for the current procurement of F35s (~$175 milion each flyaway) and new ships (~$1 billion each)

1. Great deals! We are exceeding expectations and really stretching our dollars.

2. Satisfied. We are getting fair value.

3. Dubious/reluctantly accepting. Military equipment is always expensive and there is always some waste.

4. Irate. We are pissing away taxpayer money. We should reconsider our needs/wants and look for better options.

For both programs, I'm a 4. I'm assuming that you are 2., right?

Now, everything has a price. What is yours? Hypothetically, how much more expensive would these procurements need to be before you reached level 4.? 25% more expensive? double? triple?

Your numbers for both purchases are incorrect……….And we have yet to sign a deal for both the F-35 and surface combatants, in he case of the later, we’ve yet to select a final design….so grading it is foolish…. You can keep your Cosmopolitan inspired survey….

[carepov]

Your numbers for both purchases are incorrect……….And we have yet to sign a deal for both the F-35 and surface combatants, in he case of the later, we’ve yet to select a final design….so grading it is foolish…. You can keep your Cosmopolitan inspired survey….

Note: "~" means approximately

When you evaluate military procurements, do you even consider the price being paid? Or do you just automatically cheerlead everything?

[Guest Derek L]

Note: "~" means approximately

And I see you give the term ~ a wide berth

When you evaluate military procurements, do you even consider the price being paid? Or do you just automatically cheerlead everything?

Well price is a factor, the requirement/need is paramount……….And what you purport, buying older and slightly cheaper aircraft/ships to operate into the middle of this century is purely ignorant in it’s wanton use of money and sacrificing capability.

If you don’t feel that there is a requirement for such things and/or that we could not afford such things…..say so….But spending vast sums of money on inferior equipment so as to realize slight savings on the initial purchase is beyond foolish.

Piss or get off the pot as they say.

[carepov]

Well price is a factor, the requirement/need is paramount……….And what you purport, buying older and slightly cheaper aircraft/ships to operate into the middle of this century is purely ignorant in it’s wanton use of money and sacrificing capability.

If you don’t feel that there is a requirement for such things and/or that we could not afford such things…..say so….But spending vast sums of money on inferior equipment so as to realize slight savings on the initial purchase is beyond foolish.

I am not purporting buying older and slightly cheaper aircraft/ships - where did that come from?

I do not feel that there is a requirement for such things (for example, stealth capabilities, ships that cost as much to design as other countries pay to design and build). We can afford them, but we should not waste our money. The more money that we waste on F35s and overpriced ships, the less money we have to help prevent and treat soldiers suffering from PTSD.

[Guest Derek L]

I am not purporting buying older and slightly cheaper aircraft/ships - where did that come from?

Your suggestion that we look towards European ships.

I do not feel that there is a requirement for such things (for example, stealth capabilities, ships that cost as much to design as other countries pay to design and build). We can afford them, but we should not waste our money. The more money that we waste on F35s and overpriced ships, the less money we have to help prevent and treat soldiers suffering from PTSD.

But months ago in this very thread you stated you agreed with now retired Lieutenant General (and now LPC defence policy advisor) Leslie’s recommendations for transformation of the Canadian Forces……There is not one iota within said report suggesting Canada divest itself of a modern Navy and Air Force, a Navy and Air Force that includes modern surface combatants and 5th generation stealth aircraft.

From your confused viewpoint, I’m forced to wonder if you have ever actually read the report (or understand it), and if so, how you came about your misguided conclusions………Perhaps you’d best reread it and reformulate your views on defence policy, so that they come in 5 by 5.….

[carepov]

Your suggestion that we look towards European ships.

Yes we should consider them. They are not older and slightly cheaper. My main point about the European ships is not that we should buy them it is that the cost difference between what we are spending and what their new ships cost makes me think that "something is rotten in the state of Denmark".

But months ago in this very thread you stated you agreed with now retired Lieutenant General (and now LPC defence policy advisor) Leslie’s recommendations for transformation of the Canadian Forces……There is not one iota within said report suggesting Canada divest itself of a modern Navy and Air Force, a Navy and Air Force that includes modern surface combatants and 5th generation stealth aircraft.

From your confused viewpoint, I’m forced to wonder if you have ever actually read the report (or understand it), and if so, how you came about your misguided conclusions………Perhaps you’d best reread it and reformulate your views on defence policy, so that they come in 5 by 5.….

There is not one iota within my posts suggesting Canada divest itself of a modern Navy and Air Force either.

You have grossly misunderstood "my conclusions" - in fact I havent really made any conclusions - I basicaly just have a lot of doubt, questions and concerns about waste.

Do you know if Leslie is in favour of the F35 procurement?

[Guest Derek L]

Yes we should consider them. They are not older and slightly cheaper. My main point about the European ships is not that we should buy them it is that the cost difference between what we are spending and what their new ships cost makes me think that "something is rotten in the state of Denmark".

And those issues have been addressed, namely the large subsidies European (And South Korean, Japanese and Chinese) shipyards receive, coupled with the boom & bust cycle Canadian yards face, will account for the appearance of a large price differential.

There is not one iota within my posts suggesting Canada divest itself of a modern Navy and Air Force either.

Did you not say:

I am not purporting buying older and slightly cheaper aircraft/ships - where did that come from?

I do not feel that there is a requirement for such things (for example, stealth capabilities, ships that cost as much to design as other countries pay to design and build).....

You have grossly misunderstood "my conclusions" - in fact I havent really made any conclusions - I basicaly just have a lot of doubt, questions and concerns about waste.

I can only garner an understanding of your stance via the words you post.

Do you know if Leslie is in favour of the F35 procurement?

Leslie is a man that advanced through the ranks faster then most based on merit (as opposed to who his grandpa was), and though his background is artillery and mechanized warfare, his time spent in staff collage and unified, multi-element commands will have given him some insight on both the RCN and RCAF.

As such he will know what he doesn’t know…..At no such time has the retired General subscribed, nor countered the needs and requirements of both the RCN and RCAF……Just as you won’t see senior members of the RCAF and RCN discussing the merits and demerits of a given piece of artillery or MBT…..

To date, and namely from his report, Leslie has criticised certain aspects of how the corporate structure of all the services operate, with some concerns being very valid and some wanting, but he has never suggested the Navy shouldn’t have new ships that it has identified as requiring to conduct operations it’s tasked with into the decades ahead and likewise the Air Force.

[carepov]

And those issues have been addressed, namely the large subsidies European (And South Korean, Japanese and Chinese) shipyards receive, coupled with the boom & bust cycle Canadian yards face, will account for the appearance of a large price differential.

I am not satisfied, I do not trust our governement and military leaders. I will need to read more about the navy.

Did you not say:

I can only garner an understanding of your stance via the words you post.

I did say that I do not think Canada requires/should have stealth capabilities. I also said (many times) that Canada should have a modern, efficient and effective military. Do you think that stealth capabilities are are requirement for a modern Air Force?

Leslie is a man that advanced through the ranks faster then most based on merit (as opposed to who his grandpa was), and though his background is artillery and mechanized warfare, his time spent in staff collage and unified, multi-element commands will have given him some insight on both the RCN and RCAF.

As such he will know what he doesn’t know…..At no such time has the retired General subscribed, nor countered the needs and requirements of both the RCN and RCAF……Just as you won’t see senior members of the RCAF and RCN discussing the merits and demerits of a given piece of artillery or MBT…..

To date, and namely from his report, Leslie has criticised certain aspects of how the corporate structure of all the services operate, with some concerns being very valid and some wanting, but he has never suggested the Navy shouldn’t have new ships that it has identified as requiring to conduct operations it’s tasked with into the decades ahead and likewise the Air Force.

From the sounds of it he will make a fine Minister of Defence in 2015. I am looking forward to his comments on the F35.

[Guest Derek L]

I am not satisfied, I do not trust our governement and military leaders. I will need to read more about the navy.

I see.

I did say that I do not think Canada requires/should have stealth capabilities. I also said (many times) that Canada should have a modern, efficient and effective military. Do you think that stealth capabilities are are requirement for a modern Air Force?

Going forward into the decades ahead, of course, but so to the network-centric capabilities that the F-35 will bring to all elements of the Canadian Forces.........It will be the difference between radios and carrier pigeons.

From the sounds of it he will make a fine Minister of Defence in 2015. I am looking forward to his comments on the F35.

I wouldn’t hold your breath on him becoming a Minister……none the less, you have no need to wait to hear his comments on the RCAF, read his report……you know the one you said you agree with, the very same report written by him with contributions from the military leadership, the very same leadership that you now also state that you don’t trust.

[bleeding heart]

It's insane--I mean almost literally insane--to trust these people. Hell, democratic principles themselves are generated from the truism that Power is not trustworthy.

[Army Guy]

I am not satisfied, I do not trust our governement and military leaders. I will need to read more about the navy.

I did say that I do not think Canada requires/should have stealth capabilities. I also said (many times) that Canada should have a modern, efficient and effective military. Do you think that stealth capabilities are are requirement for a modern Air Force?

From the sounds of it he will make a fine Minister of Defence in 2015. I am looking forward to his comments on the F35.

I'd be curious to hear what they have done, that you don't trust them.

Why is it that you so dead set again'st anything with stealth, when the F-35 has so much more than stealth.

Having a modern military is all about having state of the art equipment, it's also giving our members an edge on the battle field over our enemies, whom ever that may be. Stealth is an edge, not the end all be all, it is an edge we can use over our enemies. And the edges may be the difference between life and death.

His comments will come from the liberal party, nothing more or less. And the liberal party are not fans of the F-35 period, there not fans of anything really when it comes to the military.

[Smallc]

It's insane--I mean almost literally insane--to trust these people. Hell, democratic principles themselves are generated from the truism that Power is not trustworthy.

People in general aren't trustworthy. Why would politicians be any different?

[carepov]

Going forward into the decades ahead, of course, but so to the network-centric capabilities that the F-35 will bring to all elements of the Canadian Forces.........It will be the difference between radios and carrier pigeons.

I wouldn’t hold your breath on him becoming a Minister……none the less, you have no need to wait to hear his comments on the RCAF, read his report……you know the one you said you agree with, the very same report written by him with contributions from the military leadership, the very same leadership that you now also state that you don’t trust.

Well, perhaps you are right about the "need" for F35s and Canadian-made ships. But I doubt it. I should have been more careful with my earlier statement about trust - I did not mean to imply that I completely mistrust all government and military leaders - I should have said that I don't completely trust them, i.e I do not have blind faith in them. How could anyone trust them after all the procurement fiascos of the last 20-odd years?

Regarding Leslie, I specifically said that I look forward to his comments about the F35 - not the RCAF. AFAIK he has not made any comments - not that his advice means anything to today's leaders anyways...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ex-top-army-commander-sounds-the-alarm-on-defence-spending-1.1390930

[bleeding heart]

People in general aren't trustworthy. Why would politicians be any different?

Well, then sure. That underscores my point further.

[Guest Derek L]

Well, perhaps you are right about the "need" for F35s and Canadian-made ships. But I doubt it.

Ok, you doubt it…….Obviously all those partners within the F-35 program, the Chinese & Russian who are both developing their own stealth fighters (and their client states that will buy them) and all those countries that are developing modern warships are wrong……but you’re right.

I should have been more careful with my earlier statement about trust - I did not mean to imply that I completely mistrust all government and military leaders - I should have said that I don't completely trust them, i.e I do not have blind faith in them. How could anyone trust them after all the procurement fiascos of the last 20-odd years?

Procurement fiascos that are largely caused by people with similar viewpoints as yourself……

Regarding Leslie, I specifically said that I look forward to his comments about the F35 - not the RCAF. AFAIK he has not made any comments - not that his advice means anything to today's leaders anyways...

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...nding-1.1390930

Read his report........you know, the one you said you agree with

I'll give you a hint, nowhere within it was he critical of the three elements requirements (new IFVs, ships, FWSAR, upgrades to the sub fleet, maritime helicopters, new trucks….and yes, the F-35) but of the bloat and morass created within the Department of National Defence by previous Governments……..In some cases, said bloat can be attributed to the war in Afghanistan and war on terror, instances in which Leslie was directly a participant (He had an enormous headquarters when he was Chief of the Land Staff) and in others, the snails pace attributed to actual procurement and enormous requirements of civilian and military personal attached to each separate procurement program…….

Now do you still agree with his report?

[carepov]

Ok, you doubt it…….Obviously all those partners within the F-35 program, the Chinese & Russian who are both developing their own stealth fighters (and their client states that will buy them) and all those countries that are developing modern warships are wrong……but you’re right.

In the same sarcastic vein,

Obviously all the critics of the F35 are wrong and you're right?...

Also, the CPC is wrong for pushing the "reset" button? If it was so "obvious" why would the CPC be re-considering their decision?...

Procurement fiascos that are largely caused by people with similar viewpoints as yourself……

Sure, government and military leaders don't deserve to be blamed. It's people that want value for their dollar that should be blamed for wasting money.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/04/04/andrew-coyne-the-f-35-affair-is-a-fiasco-from-top-to-bottom/

I'll give you a hint, nowhere within it was he critical of the three elements requirements (new IFVs, ships, FWSAR, upgrades to the sub fleet, maritime helicopters, new trucks….and yes, the F-35) but of the bloat and morass created within the Department of National Defence by previous Governments……..In some cases, said bloat can be attributed to the war in Afghanistan and war on terror, instances in which Leslie was directly a participant (He had an enormous headquarters when he was Chief of the Land Staff) and in others, the snails pace attributed to actual procurement and enormous requirements of civilian and military personal attached to each separate procurement program…….

Now do you still agree with his report?

Yes I agree with his report - there are many ways to save money. I assumed that Leslie was focussed on operations, not procurement.

Edited December 2, 2013 by carepov

[carepov]

I'd be curious to hear what they have done, that you don't trust them.

I don't trust them because:

-Helicopters (Liberal fiasco)

-Shitty subs

-Trucks (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/military-truck-purchase-cancelled-due-to-cost-concerns-1.1273570)

-all the times that budgets are grossly exceeded (yes I know that this happens all the time - it still doesn't make it right)

-unclear comminication (lies) about F35 spending as per Coyne

Why is it that you so dead set again'st anything with stealth, when the F-35 has so much more than stealth.

Having a modern military is all about having state of the art equipment, it's also giving our members an edge on the battle field over our enemies, whom ever that may be. Stealth is an edge, not the end all be all, it is an edge we can use over our enemies. And the edges may be the difference between life and death.

I am not against stealth - I am against wasting money. If we waste money on stealth we will not have enough money that would give us a bigger "edge".

His comments will come from the liberal party, nothing more or less. And the liberal party are not fans of the F-35 period, there not fans of anything really when it comes to the military.

So why do retired lieutenant generals Andrew Leslie and Romeo Dallaire join the Liberal party and not the CPC?

Edited December 2, 2013 by carepov

[Guest Derek L]

In the same sarcastic vein,

Obviously all the critics of the F35 are wrong and you're right?...

Also, the CPC is wrong for pushing the "reset" button? If it was so "obvious" why would the CPC be re-considering their decision?...

Yes.......As made evident by countries joining the program, all the while, costs are going down……..

Sure, government and military leaders don't deserve to be blamed. It's people that want value for their dollar that should be blamed for wasting money.

Truth hurts I guess.

Yes I agree with his report - there are many ways to save money. I assumed that Leslie was focussed on operations, not procurement.

How do you agree with something that you've clearly not read?

[Guest Derek L]

I don't trust them because:

-Helicopters (Liberal fiasco)

-Shitty subs

-Trucks (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/military-truck-purchase-cancelled-due-to-cost-concerns-1.1273570)

-all the times that budgets are grossly exceeded (yes I know that this happens all the time - it still doesn't make it right)

-unclear comminication (lies) about F35 spending as per Coyne

Programs started under the previous Liberal Governments........

I am not against stealth - I am against wasting money. If we waste money on stealth we will not have enough money that would give us a bigger "edge".

Huh? So you've got nothing against stealth, but you would rather other folks spend their money on it....ok

And what "bigger edge" do you speak of?

So why do retired lieutenant generals Andrew Leslie and Romeo Dallaire join the Liberal party and not the CPC?

I would assume Leslie based on who his grandparents were........Dallaire I have no idea.

[carepov]

Yes.......As made evident by countries joining the program, all the while, costs are going down……..

You dodged the question about why the CPC is "resetting" the program.

How do you agree with something that you've clearly not read?

I have read many articles about the report and agree with the recommendations of the report. Do you have a link to the report itself? Do you know what the scope was? Was it or was it not limitted to operations?

Programs started under the previous Liberal Governments.........

Yes, untrustworthy (Liberal) leaders working with military leaders. The CPC is no better (F35 and ships) and perhaps even worse. Also the CPC has had enough time to fix mistakes from over 8 years ago...

Huh? So you've got nothing against stealth, but you would rather other folks spend their money on it....ok

Everything has a price...

And what "bigger edge" do you speak of?

Helicopters (Afghanistan).

Mental health of soldiers.

Better shovels (Toronto).

I would assume Leslie based on who his grandparents were........Dallaire I have no idea.

hmm. that begs the question of how a Liberal could rise through the ranks so quickly...

[Guest Derek L]

You dodged the question about why the CPC is "resetting" the program.

Politics......We've made developmental payments last year, the RCAF is still planning the transition to the F-35 and we take over as chair of the program next Spring.

I have read many articles about the report and agree with the recommendations of the report. Do you have a link to the report itself? Do you know what the scope was? Was it or was it not limitted to operations?

The report was encompassing of all facets of transformation of the Department of National Defence……..including future force structure and procurement.

Yes, untrustworthy (Liberal) leaders working with military leaders. The CPC is no better (F35 and ships) and perhaps even worse. Also the CPC has had enough time to fix mistakes from over 8 years ago...

Really? I guess you never read about the Globemasters, 155mm howitzers, MRAPs, Leopard IIs, Both short and long term Chinook deals etc etc.......All sole sourced contracts, delivered in a timely manner on budget……..

And no, 8 years is not enough to fix the problems caused by the previous Liberal governments, coupled with the strain put on the forces by the war in Afghanistan and War on Terror…….It will probably take a generation+ with a concentrated effort.

Everything has a price...

Yes.

Helicopters (Afghanistan).

Mental health of soldiers.

Better shovels (Toronto).

?

hmm. that begs the question of how a Liberal could rise through the ranks so quickly...

No it doesn’t, publicly the Canadian Forces are an apolitical organization……believe it or not, it’s individual members are aloud to hold their own political views, it’s just a great many tilt to the Tories…..

[carepov]

Politics......We've made developmental payments last year, the RCAF is still planning the transition to the F-35 and we take over as chair of the program next Spring.

Politics... so the CPC purposefully lied about the F35 costs and then stuck their foot in their mouth by "resetting" the program shooing away MacKay so that they can score political points?

[Guest Derek L]

Politics... so the CPC purposefully lied about the F35 costs and then stuck their foot in their mouth by "resetting" the program shooing away MacKay so that they can score political points?

I'm sorry, you make no sense.......Also, like your claims to understanding the Leslie report on Transformation, a report that you’ve obviously never read, you are also demonstrating your ignorance on Canadian involvement within the F-35 program……And to be honest, I can’t be bothered regurgitating numerous threads on the F-35 for you…..

[carepov]

The report was encompassing of all facets of transformation of the Department of National Defence……..including future force structure and procurement.

Thanks, I appreciate this and other opportunities to learn about our military through this discussion. It's not that I don't beleive you, but I would like a link to verify the scope (or the actual report).

If indeed the mandate of the report included looking for ways to save money through procurement of major capital expenses, and no opportunities for savings were found - then I do not fully agree with the report. Please note, I never claimed to have full agreement, knowledge or understanding of the report. I brought it up as proof that there is significant waste in the military.

Really? I guess you never read about the Globemasters, 155mm howitzers, MRAPs, Leopard IIs, Both short and long term Chinook deals etc etc.......All sole sourced contracts, delivered in a timely manner on budget……..

I do not doubt that the CPC and military leaders are doing some good work. However both parties are guilty of procurement fiascos, I cannot say who is worse.

And no, 8 years is not enough to fix the problems caused by the previous Liberal governments, coupled with the strain put on the forces by the war in Afghanistan and War on Terror…….It will probably take a generation+ with a concentrated effort.

Don't you think 8 years is enough time to get some new helicopters?

No it doesn’t, publicly the Canadian Forces are an apolitical organization……believe it or not, it’s individual members are aloud to hold their own political views, it’s just a great many tilt to the Tories…..

How many retired lieutenant generals are on your CPC team?

I'm sorry, you make no sense.......Also, like your claims to understanding the Leslie report on Transformation, a report that you’ve obviously never read, you are also demonstrating your ignorance on Canadian involvement within the F-35 program……And to be honest, I can’t be bothered regurgitating numerous threads on the F-35 for you…..

There are many things with the F-35 program that make no sense.

-You said that going with the F-35 is obviously the right choice,

-I asked, if it so obvious why has our government backtracked and is now re-considering,

-You said "politics"

-I said "huh? the F-35 program IS a political fiasco"

I'm fine if we drop the subject as I have no interest to get sucked into the blackholeish threads either.

Edited December 3, 2013 by carepov

[Guest Derek L]

Thanks, I appreciate this and other opportunities to learn about our military through this discussion. It's not that I don't beleive you, but I would like a link to verify the scope (or the actual report).

If indeed the mandate of the report included looking for ways to save money through procurement of major capital expenses, and no opportunities for savings were found - then I do not fully agree with the report. Please note, I never claimed to have full agreement, knowledge or understanding of the report. I brought it up as proof that there is significant waste in the military.

A brief synopsis:

http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vol12/no1/68-shadwick-eng.asp

And a link for you to obtain a copy:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-reports-pubs/transformation-report-2011.page

When/if you get the report, pay heed to the mention of the RCAF’s planned Air Expeditionary Wing, a capability that will very much so include the F-35 (and the new Chinooks, Hercules & Globemasters lifters, UAVs and the eventual replacements for the CP-140s, CH-146s and Polaris tankers) as it’s focal point for operations decades ahead, built around our recent experiences in Afghanistan and Libya, well also borrowing from the Leslie’s suggestions on both streamlined logistics and C2.

I do not doubt that the CPC and military leaders are doing some good work. However both parties are guilty of procurement fiascos, I cannot say who is worse.

The Liberals, the often mentioned “Decade of Darkness” started under Chrétien, but one can also trace back some present problems attributed to the last Trudeau Government.

Don't you think 8 years is enough time to get some new helicopters?

Wouldn’t have had said problem if the Liberals didn’t cancel the original contract, then later selected a lemon.

How many retired lieutenant generals are on your CPC team?

Lots.....Off the top of my head:

Head of the international peacekeeping force in the FRY, two CDS and a former Minister of National Defence.

There are many things with the F-35 program that make no sense.

-You said that going with the F-35 is obviously the right choice,

-I asked, if it so obvious why has our government backtracked and is now re-considering,

-You said "politics"

-I said "huh? the F-35 program IS a political fiasco"

I'm fine if we drop the subject as I have no interest to get sucked into the blackholeish threads either.

Read the latest F-35 thread, then ask questions & start a "debate"......