responding to anti Israel propoganda

[Rue]

It is my contention that on many political forums not just this one, Middle East political sections of these forums are dominated by partisan discussions on Israel.

I find discussion on any political conflict imbalanced when only one party to the conflict's opinions are expressed.

It is my personal belief that many persons who claim to be pro Palestinian do not know who Palestinians are or how they live and in fact are unintentionally being duped by disinformation campaigns that eminate from Iran and the current Hamas and Palestinian Authorities.

The disinformation also flows from the Muslim Brotherhood operating in Egypt.

What once was a powerful disinformation ministry operation working from the Ministry of Information in Syria appears shut down due to its civil war.

I would urge all political debaters to try find both sides of all arguements on Middle East debates.

However as I feel "Hudson Jones' has flooded this forum with one sided daily threads with inflammatory headings against Israel and most with either no opinion or simpl a referral to an anti Israel web site, I thought I would start a thread on responding to anti Israeli propoganda.

For me as a Canadian Jew, I have always put Canada first and my belief that Jews should have the right to a collective identity expressed through a national state does not supercede my personal belief I am first and foremost a Canadian and can have only one loyalty t o one nation and that is to Canada.

It is the country that provided freedom to my grandparents and a parent fleeing persecution and it has provided me an oportunity to live with democratic privileges my ancestors could only dream of. I am proud of my father's record in defending his nation in World War Two and I am proud to be Canadian.

That said I support the right of Jews to have a country and I hope one day Palestinians can to and those who claim to speak on behalf of Palestinians but who in fact use them as pawns in a war to rid the Middle East of Israel and Jordan are exposed and defeated.

I just want to respond to the basic recycked false statements "Hudson Jones" has been recycling on this forum.

The first being the manipulation of the history of the current map on the West Bank and how it evolved.

From time to time he and "Bud" and others have produced coloured maps trying to depict Israel as having stolen land.

The simple response to that I would point out can be found at;

palestinian-propaganda-map-deconstructed

http://cifwatch.com/2011/03/14/palestinian-propaganda-map-deconstructed/

In regards to suggestions all Israelis are anti Palestinian and do not want peace may I simply state to readers that just as its wrong to stereotype all Palestinians are anti Israeli and terrorist, its wrong to do the same about Israelis.

May I also contend that to pose Hamas as a conventional armed force engaged in war is false. It is not. It is not the armed force of a sovereign nation. It in fact has no uniform it uses when it attacks Israel. It uses the guise of civilians a direct contradiction of the Geneva Convention. It attacks civilians in Israel another direct contravention of the Geneva convention. It uses its own people to smuggle weapons. I have seen it and other terror cells with my own eyes use children, people with down's syndrome, people in wheel chairs, pregnant women and the elderly to smuggle weapons.

It uses lethal force on its own citizens including shooting them dead when they have gathered in opposition to Hamas policies. It has placed rubber tires around the necks of its opponents and burned them alive.

If you think the current Palestinian Authority is any better please check out its record. OnMarch 2,2013, it killed a Palestinian after a lengthy torture period in its prison.

Of course you will never see "Hudson Jones" on this forum concede Hamas is a terrorist organization or that the Palestinian Authority killed its own citizen on March 2.

You won't see him concede since the wall went up on the West Bank, terrorism attacks on Israel from the West bank were seriously curtailed.

You won't see him acknowledge the actual state on the ground on the West Bank or Gaza. What he will do however is deflect from the life of day to day Palestinians and limit his comments to focusing on anti IDF threads and when provided a response to his allegations, switch quickly to another topic.

The motus operandi I would suggest is well known and consists of:

1-making accusations that all Israelis and anyone who supports Israel as having the right to exist as a Jewish nation is a racist,zionist, international war criminal, and suporter of apartheid against Palestinians;

2-supporting terrorist attacks on Israel and anyone supporting Israel by making references to such attacks as legitimate acts of war or in the alternative refraining from commenting on them when but simply criticizing Israel for defending itself against terror attacks as if they never happened;

3-refusing to acknowledge Hamas, and other terror cells openly operate on the West Bank and in Gaza and are funded by Iran;

4-refusing to acknowledge these terror cells led by Hamas, Hezbollah and the Muslim Brotherhood have an open agenda they tell their people daily consists of taking back Israel and Jordan and turning it into a Muslim calpihate;

5-engaging in coded language to call for Israel's extinction, i.e., suggesting they will recognize Israel but only if it allows anyone who refers to themselves as a Palestinian to be able to enter Israel and claim Israeli citizenship and be granted it automatically (i.e., Israel would cease to exist as a Jewish state, it would allow itself to become a Muslim state voluntarily and give up all its land to anyone who says they are Palestinian);

6-suggesting Palestine is already a sovereign state;

7-suggesting Israel went on to the West Bank illegally and occupied it (under international law one can only occupy land if it is a sovereign nation-the term occupied is incorrectly used-in fact Israel does not occupy in the correct legal sense, it does occupy in layman's terms however but there is a very large difference in legal implications);

8-suggesting all Israel's activities are illegal and nothing it does is legitimate;

9-denies Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish nation or defend its people;

10-denies Israel has laws that afford non Jewish citizens the highest standard of living of all Muslims in the Middle East and democratic freedoms including the right of assembly, the right to vote and the right to own property no Jew is allowed in an Arab League nation or Palestine at this time;

11-accuses Israel of apartheid but refuses to acknowledge sharia law and dhimmitude as in fact open systems of apartheid;

12-states Jews should not have a Jewish state but Muslims be allowed Muslim states.

We can go on forever with the one sided diatribes.

The fact is in any conflict neither side is right or wrong but when they resort to terrorism or war fail to engage in civil discourse and end up causing death.

The fact is the dead bleed the same colour blood.

The fact is as I write this, thousands of Israelis, Palestinians, and citizens of the world will keep trying to find ways to avoid wars and terrorism and bring opposing peoples together to live with mutual respect and dignity. We will find away.

It starts by confronting one sided debates that only choose to select one view and ignore the rest, It starts by challenging inflammatory and misleading propoganda and urging people to see conflicted parties as only such not demons.

I have criticized persons on both sides of the debate for being intellectually lazy and trying to simplify complex disputes with multiple layers of legal conflict. I will continue to do so.

In the interim I direct this to the extremists its intended to be directed at-you know where to find me-you know where to find all others like me-we live in all countries across the world-we are the majority and the fact we are quiet does not mean we are weak. The fact we enjoy peace does not make us weak. The fact we embrace free speech and individuality does not make us weak.

Do not mistake us as complacent. We know the cost of our freedom.

Know these eyes "Hudson Jones" and all other composites and posers who advocate their agenda-these eyes

have witnessed violence, senseless murder and the manipulation of children. These eyes go from showing a flame of passion and compassion to no light at all-go look at the eyes in a Modigliani painting and understand what causes them and realize, they come from those of us who know what must be do to protect freedom.

[BC_chick]

It's interesting that you think 'misinformation' is the reason people could be sympathetic toward Palestinians.

I remember I had European houseguests with me during the 2006 Lebanon war and they seemed to be quite surprised by what they said was an obvious pro-Israeli bias in our MSM. According to them European media shows a lot more footage from the Palestinian perspective.

There are also lots of documentaries made by North American and European people who are not Iranian or Hamas affiliated and they also document the lives of Palestinians as well.

Sure, bias exists everywhere, but I'm not sure I agree with your assertion that being sympathetic to Palestinians is from people who don't really know who Palestinians really are.

On the contrary, it seems that the people who actually get to 'see' the lives of Palestinains end up even more sympathetic to them.

Unless of course you want to conflate Hamas and 'Palestinians' as one. This is often the case on these forums.

[Rue]

That is not what I said. Melting down what I said to state I think anyone who is sympathetic to Palestinians is engaging in disinformation is silly and an example of the very problem I am challenging when debating Israel.

Reducing what someone says to a mistated subjective interpretation of it does what?

Are you really going to tell me I stated being sympathetic to Palestinians is wrong? Give me a break. You know me better then that,

Take a look at the posts from "Hudson Jones" as an example. Do you really think "Hudson Jones" posts are sympathetic of Palestinians or in fact exploiting them for another agenda.

Does it sound like he really cares? You've read his posts. How does reducing their complex issues to blatantly one sided propoganda bites sympathetic to them? You think it does their 'cause' justice?

You think Palestinians let alone Israelis want to be used by others for their own political agendas?

His threads are so one sided as to be now reduced to predictable recycled scripts.

They are run daily and establish what?

What is frustrating to me is they actually prevent dialogue. Rather than focusing on the issues they avoid them and in fact use those issues as an opportunity to name call Israel and Israelis not offer solutions.

Show me one post of his that has examined both sides of the issues he has presented and offered a solution that recognizes the Israeli and Palestinian peoples as equals.

You won't.

Even you have conceded Israelis have a right to exist in Israel as a Jewish nation despite all your differences with me on the topic. I am not aware of you ever condoning violence against civilians of any kind.

Sympathetic? You have read my past posts. I am sympathetic to both sides. i have stated I do not like any war or conflict and Zionism was never intended to create a nightmare for the people who now call themselves Palestinians.

The treatment of Muslims within the Jewish Israeli nation compared to Jews in the Muslim nations is a stark contrast in rights including property, financial levels of wealth, income levels, freedom of speech.

Israel is no utopia. It does not treat reform Jews like me as equals to orthodox Jews. In that sense my sect of Judaism is discriminated no different then any other. I could go on why I disagree with some of its foreign policy, some of its religious laws, as I have in the past. The point is I balance it. i can be very critical of it like most Israelis and supporters of Israel.

Why is it however that when I ask for debate from"Hudson Jones" we are reduced to sound bites of one sided subjective opinion and a refusal to acknowledge anything but his own stated subjective opinion?

How is it he can continually take articles or reports and remove them from their actual full context?

How is it he will take liberties to mistate leaking sewage as dumped sewage and an apology as an admission of liability?

Why is it this level of forum presentation reduces such complex issues to such partisan sound bites and how does that help Palestinians?

That is what I ask.

I contend his scripts are verbatum from the government of Iran and Hamas information sites.

How about me? Do you really think I blanketly endorse Israel state policies?

You really think I define women as the Rabbinical council does or believe there should not be a two state solution?

Do you think I think all Palestinians are evil?

Have you seen me come on this forum and make the statement its difficult to know an Israeli settler from his/her government? You do realize that is a code word for justifying terrorism do you not?

You do know that is a Hamas code yes? You do know when someone says they believe in recognizing Israel but only if all Palestinians are allowed to return that is another code word for its extinction yes?

See I do not know about you but I read Hamas, Iranian government, Palestinian Authority disinformation. I read the coded references-one for Westerners and one for its own audiences. I know the code words. So do many of us. We watch it and we monitor it and we read between the lines.

We do not think Israel is an angel. We know its full of problems-but we also know its surrounded by terrorism and until that is resolved talking about peace is impossible.,

We also know there are people dedicated in presenting disinformation and in inciting hatred towards anything Israel or Jewish in nature.

If being sympathetic about the situation makes one a disinformation agent, then I am a Palestinian disinformation agent.

Let's be clear-sympathy for Palestinians is not the issue and never was.

Edited April 1, 2013 by Rue

[Rue]

By the way BC Chick, I sat in law schoo doing a Master's degree in law at York listening to the Professor call for the dismantling of Israel in a constitutional law class. I listen to CBC and I read theToronto Star and listen to the media. Bias? You really want me to believe the media is bias in favour of Israel?

Really? Lol. I don't doubt you interpret it that way, but I and many others find it the other way around.

Just for your curiousity in all the years of following this conflict I have found the Christian Science monitor of all things, the most neutral.

The Israeli media if you did speak Hebrew you would find is highly critical of Israel.

I have yet to find these pro Israeli biases you claim in the Star or Globe. Of course the National Post and Sun I concede are pro Israel. So of the 4 major papers that would be a tie.

Please don't tell me CNN is pro Israel. Fox, yes. The 3 American channels, I doubt it. They spend so little time reporting it.

CTV or CBC giveme a break.

BBC is openly bias against Israel to the point it has run blatantly false reports given to them by Hamas.

No doubt however you find Al Jazeer just right.

p.s. no I do not control the media, if I did I think I would do a far better job on this forum don't you?

[Guest American Woman]

By the way BC Chick, I sat in law schoo doing a Master's degree in law at York listening to the Professor call for the dismantling of Israel in a constitutional law class. I listen to CBC and I read theToronto Star and listen to the media. Bias? You really want me to believe the media is bias in favour of Israel?[/i]

Really? Lol. I don't doubt you interpret it that way, but I and many others find it the other way around.

Agreed. I think this is especially true in Europe, and this - "According to them European media shows a lot more footage from the Palestinian perspective" - could certainly support that idea. I don't know why the difference in coverage between Canada and Europe would automatically translate to a bias towards Israel in the Canadian media, but I think its rather telling of the mindset Israel is up against. Edited April 1, 2013 by American Woman

[GostHacked]

Propaganda?? Both sides are engaged in an information war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yesha_Council

On 3 August 2010, it was reported that the Yesha Council together with Israel Sheli
(My Israel), a network of online pro-Israel activists committed to
spreading Zionism online, were organizing people at a workshop in Jerusalem to teach them how to edit Wikipedia articles in a pro-Israeli way.^[3][4][5] Around 50 people took part in the course.^[6]

[Rue]

Propaganda?? Both sides are engaged in an information war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yesha_Council

Lol. Yep. Zionists. They exist.

I am also the first to suggest I advocate on behalf of Israel's right to exist and do not hide that proposition in my responses or

my political bias in favour of Tzipi Levni or the fact I lived in Israel and volunteered on a kibbutz.

I do not hide my bias in favour of a 2 state solution and the belief settlements on the West Bank in the long term will not assist

in achieving a permanent peace solution. I do not hide my bias against traditional orthodox Judaism or ultra-orthodox Judaism and their roles on interpreting certain Zionist principles.

When I raised this thread it was because I am trying to challenge "Hudson Jones" or "Bud" and have them openly admit their true political affiliation and agenda.

The issue is not that they or anyone else exists with their biases-its whether such people can expect to have credibility with such biases. That is why my comments challenge me and everyone else equally regardless of our own personal views.

Tell me have you ever wondered if it is possible some of the people who come on this forum are sent here to deliberately agitate between Jewish and Muslim Canadians?

Do you think I am a pro Israel Zionist disinformation agent?

Do you also believe 'Hudson Jones" is an agent for a disinformation agency as well?

Is that fair to ask? We get an answer from me as to my biases openly admitted, but none from "Hudson Jones"-why is that?

My concern is with anyone and I mean anyone who can only present one side of an argument and insists on selectively choosing and demanding and contolling discussion and ideas and tries to dominate and control a political section with daily anti Israel scripts/.

"Hudson Jones" insistence that "he" control what can be considered and discussed on the Middle East is what I criticize.

Have others on both sides have engaged in media propoganda absolutely.

My comments were directed at those of us on this forum and others on other political forums who are sick and tired of the same one sided scripts regurgitated including the misleading and inflammatory head lines.

Disinformation-oh I get it.

Lol no I would not expect you to believe anything the Israeli state government publishes on its site.

For that same reason you really expect me or others to take what he says as anything but recuycled government propoganda scripts?

Now my favourite by the way is the DPK's radio and internet. They remind me of some of the comments "Hudson Jones" has made in their style and content.

Now me, you can if you wish accuse me of being a Zionist disinformation agent. Be my guest. I am sure that state would be thrilled to know I speak for them. Lol.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Rue

[GostHacked]

You assume quite a bit Rue.

I have rarely seen you post outside of these Isreali/Palestine threads, so I don't know how much balance you are trying to provide if any. You are on the other side of Hudson's arguments (not that I believe all of them).

But sure, he could be a dis-info agent. As could you. I've been online long enough to see it happens on both sides, and quite often.

[Guest American Woman]

I have rarely seen you post outside of these Isreali/Palestine threads, so I don't know how much balance you are trying to provide if any. You are on the other side of Hudson's arguments (not that I believe all of them).

For argument's sake, let's say that's true; that Rue rarely posts outside the Israeli/Palestine threads. He's responding to the countless threads criticizing Israel by a handful of posters who do nothing but start threads against Israel. But for these countless threads criticizing Israel, but the posters who do nothing else, I have to wonder how much discussion there would even be regarding Israel and Palestine on this forum. No one is starting thread after threat criticizing Palestine.

But sure, he could be a dis-info agent. As could you. I've been online long enough to see it happens on both sides, and quite often.

You've "seen it happen" as in it's been proven, or as in that's been your take on it?

Certainly we've got some posters here from the CJPME, I have that on 'good authority,' and some of them do post under others' accounts. I have that on the same 'good authority.'

Edited April 2, 2013 by American Woman

[DogOnPorch]

For argument's sake, let's say that's true; that Rue rarely posts outside the Israeli/Palestine threads. He's responding to the countless threads criticizing Israel by a handful of posters who do nothing but start threads against Israel. But for these countless threads criticizing Israel, but the posters who do nothing else, I have to wonder how much discussion there would even be regarding Israel and Palestine on this forum. No one is starting thread after threat criticizing Palestine. You've "seen it happen" as in it's been proven, or as in that's been your take on it?

Certainly we've got some posters here from the CJPME, I have that on 'good authority,' and some of them do post under others' accounts. I have that on the same 'good authority.'

Gotta agree. Without the various members of the CJPME posting new threads on the Arab-Israeli situation, there would be little discussion here on that subject. If any.

[eyeball]

It would be like Betsy discussing evolution with herself.

[scribblet]

......................

Certainly we've got some posters here from the CJPME, I have that on 'good authority,' and some of them do post under others' accounts. I have that on the same 'good authority.'

Really, now that is just weird. How do they post under others' accounts, does admin know that ?

[Guest American Woman]

Really, now that is just weird. How do they post under others' accounts, does admin know that ?

They must give them their password. As for whether or not admin knows, I couldn't say.

[Rue]

You assume quite a bit Rue.

I have rarely seen you post outside of these Isreali/Palestine threads, so I don't know how much balance you are trying to provide if any. You are on the other side of Hudson's arguments (not that I believe all of them).

But sure, he could be a dis-info agent. As could you. I've been online long enough to see it happens on both sides, and quite often.

Oh come have fun then on the Rob Ford posts. I try my best to defend the fat guy.