Israel apologizes to Turkey

[Peter F]

American Woman:

Where did I say those on the flotilla were guilty?

You didn't until you said that Israels apology doesn't absolve the Flottila of guilt. I think It is reasonable to assume that you beleive that the flottilla participants carry some guilt for what happened and that that guilt could somehow-someway be 'absolved'. And I also assume that such absolution of guilt could be accomplished without any regard to what Israel does or does not do.

And tho you didn't actually say those on the flotilla were guilty you most certainly implied it.

post 10 of this thread:

Apparently, though, the wrongs/errors committed by those on the flotilla are not as grievous as Israel's, and they are not to be held accountable.

post 12

Just because Israel made some mistakes in handling the incident doesn't mean it's guilty of the deaths.

Edited to add: I noticed you completely dismissed the part of my post referring to mistakes made by those on the flotilla that may have led to the deaths

post 14

There were mistakes made by those on the flotilla, too, which may have lead to the deaths.

post 16

I said mistakes that they made could have LED to the people being killed. In the exapmple you cited re: the drunk driver - if a bar tender had kept plying the drunk with drinks, and said drunk then got in the car and killed someone, he would be 'guilty' too, even though he didn't kill anyone.

post 18

Israel apologized for what MAY have lead to the deaths. Now it's time for those involved with the flotilla to do the same

Based upon the above, I think its pretty obvious you think the Flottila participants are guilty of something.

As for me, If you infact hold the beleif that I think you do, I agree! The whole purpose of the Flottila was designed to confront the Israeli blockade and trigger an excessive response which the Israeli's fell for hook-line-and-sinker. They knowingly sailed into the Israeli blockade with sky-high hopes.

The flottila participants are responsible for thier actions , would you not agree? That they in fact carry some guilt for the outcome? I think thats a fair statement.

And, like you, I think they should apologize for thier part - but they havn't and maybe will never admit thier responsibility.

But, wether the flottila folks ever admit thier guilt or not has absolutely nothing to do with Israels responsibility in the affair. Hell thier own internal post-op investigation determined they over-reacted. Israel has a can to carry to.

That Netenyahu issued an apology backed up with paying compensation recognizing thier own responsibility(guilt) in what transpired is actually a good thing.

Why taking the high-road by Israel should be denied and discounted is beyond me.

Edited March 31, 2013 by Peter F

[-TSS-]

Turkey is the only predominantly islamic country that I would call a civilized country. Their people's attitudes towards the central tenets of islam differ drastically from most, if not all, other islamic countries including things like stoning adulterers or death sentence for apostasy.

[Guest American Woman]

American Woman:

You didn't until you said that Israels apology doesn't absolve the Flottila of guilt. I think It is reasonable to assume that you beleive that the flottilla participants carry some guilt for what happened and that that guilt could somehow-someway be 'absolved'. And I also assume that such absolution of guilt could be accomplished without any regard to what Israel does or does not do.

And tho you didn't actually say those on the flotilla were guilty you most certainly implied it.

post 10 of this thread:

post 12

post 14

post 16

post 18

Based upon the above, I think its pretty obvious you think the Flottila participants are guilty of something.

This is really getting tiresome. Notice in what you quoted I said "MAY HAVE," which is NOT, as I have been repeatedly saying now, synonymous with a claim of/admission of guilt.

Furthermore, "guilty of something" is a whole helluva lot different from "guilty of the deaths." That's what I've been taking issue with - the claim that Israel admitted guilt for the deaths. Israel did no such thing.

As for me, If you infact hold the beleif that I think you do, I agree! The whole purpose of the Flottila was designed to confront the Israeli blockade and trigger an excessive response which the Israeli's fell for hook-line-and-sinker. They knowingly sailed into the Israeli blockade with sky-high hopes.

They sailed into it, hoping to take inventory and prevent weapons from being smuggled in. I do agree that the flotilla was going for a response that could be played up to the world, but I think that would be just about any response Israel made.

The flottila participants are responsible for thier actions , would you not agree?

Absolutely.

That they in fact carry some guilt for the outcome? I think thats a fair statement. And, like you, I think they should apologize for thier part - but they havn't and maybe will never admit thier responsibility.

I definitely do think they should apologize for their part, as I've said. They never will as they are not being held accountable; held to the same standards as Israel. As I've said, it's not about the deaths, it's about demonizing Israel. Anyone who is truly concerned about the deaths would be putting the same pressure on those involved with the flotilla. But I think we both know that that's not going to happen.

But, wether the flottila folks ever admit thier guilt or not has absolutely nothing to do with Israels responsibility in the affair.

I never said it did.

Hell thier own internal post-op investigation determined they over-reacted. Israel has a can to carry to.

I think "too" is the key word there, as all of the focus is put ONLY on Israel. Which has been my point.

That Netenyahu issued an apology backed up with paying compensation recognizing thier own responsibility(guilt) in what transpired is actually a good thing.

Why taking the high-road by Israel should be denied and discounted is beyond me.

I've already repeated this ad nauseum, but it's the claim that Israel admitted that it was guilty of the deaths that I am taking issue with. Israel never made such an admission. As I already said, compensation is not synonymous with "guilty of the deaths" any more than an out of court settlement means "guilty;" especially when it's being presented solely as Israel's "guilt." It's a bad thing for Israel because of the way it's being twisted and played into something it's not. It's a shame that the apology does Israel harm rather than good.

[DogOnPorch]

Apologizing diffuses the situation, somewhat. That doesn't make it a victory for anyone or justify the actions of either side. As mentioned in this thread, an apology would be nice from the idiots who started this affair, as well. But seeing Greta Berlin and crew's rabid hatred of Israel, I doubt anything like that is forthcoming. Perhaps another flotilla, instead.

[Guest]

Apologizing diffuses the situation, somewhat. That doesn't make it a victory for anyone or justify the actions of either side. As mentioned in this thread, an apology would be nice from the idiots who started this affair, as well. But seeing Greta Berlin and crew's rabid hatred of Israel, I doubt anything like that is forthcoming. Perhaps another flotilla, instead.

Right. Nobody is actually sorry about anything. Netanyahu went into a room with Obama and came out thinking an apology was a good idea. If he wasn't sorry going in, he wasn't sorry coming out. He just changed his mind about how good an idea it was. Score one for B.O.

Israel owes no-one an apology or compensation for trying to keep weapons out of Hamas's hands, but realpolitik decides actions in these cases, more often than not. I'm sure the saner members of the Turkish government understand this.

[Rue]

The nerve of the guy to characterize this as an apology! This Hudson Jones guy must be some shill for terrorists!

Lighten up. Hudsons right. Israel apologized.

No one criticized him for stating it was an apology. He was called out because he stated Netanyahu admitted liability. There is a huge difference between the two.

If you don't understand the difference between an apology as an admission of liability please ask and I can explain.

You seem to have a problem differentiating the two in your response.

Is he a shrill for terrorists?..Thanks for raising that possibility...you might be on to something....

[Rue]

I don't understand what Rue is talking about now. Can someone translate his latest rant? Did Bibi apologize or not?

I don't understand what Rue is talking about now. Can someone translate his latest rant? Did Bibi apologize or not?

Lol.You are something else. Now you suggest you do not know the difference between an apology and an admission of liability? Lol.

Its growing real stale "Hudson Jones".

[Hudson Jones]

Lol.You are something else. Now you suggest you do not know the difference between an apology and an admission of liability? Lol.

Its growing real stale "Hudson Jones".

If Israel has apologized for the deaths of people and is going to give compensation to the family of the people it has killed... hm.. what does that say to anyone who has a sense of logic and rational?

[Guest American Woman]

If Israel has apologized for the deaths of people and is going to give compensation to the family of the people it has killed... hm.. what does that say to anyone who has a sense of logic and rational?

How many times do you need it repeated??

[Hudson Jones]

That Netenyahu issued an apology backed up with paying compensation recognizing thier own responsibility(guilt) in what transpired is actually a good thing.

Why taking the high-road by Israel should be denied and discounted is beyond me.

Yes. The reaction and the behaviour being displayed towards Israel's apology to Turkey and the compensation for the killings is quite odd.

[Guest American Woman]

Yes. The reaction and the behaviour being displayed towards Israel's apology to Turkey and the compensation for the killings is quite odd.

This is true, but not in the way you are implying - and it has already been addressed.

The "behavior being displayed" is to use the apology to falsely accuse Israel of admitting guilt/responsibility for the deaths on the flotilla, as is the compensation. Not true. Again. Israel apologized for any action that MAY have contributed to the deaths - and compensation is no more an admission of guilt over the deaths than settling out of court is an admission of guilt.

While this behavior is 'parr for the course,' I still can't help but find it "quite odd."

[DogOnPorch]

This is true, but not in the way you are implying - and it has already been addressed.

The "behavior being displayed" is to use the apology to falsely accuse Israel of admitting guilt/responsibility for the deaths on the flotilla, as is the compensation. Not true. Again. Israel apologized for any action that MAY have contributed to the deaths - and compensation is no more an admission of guilt over the deaths than settling out of court is an admission of guilt.

While this behavior is 'parr for the course,' I still can't help but find it "quite odd."

Meanwhile, in Syria...more 'soldiers' have been killed than in all the Arab-Israeli wars combined. Let alone 'civilians'. No flotillas...No Greta Berlin...No Alice Walker...No Hudson Jones. No Rue for that matter...

But, hey....bark, bark, bark. I do like my comfy bed on the porch. Here comes the Postman...oh boy!

[Rue]

Meanwhile, in Syria...more 'soldiers' have been killed than in all the Arab-Israeli wars combined. Let alone 'civilians'. No flotillas...No Greta Berlin...No Alice Walker...No Hudson Jones. No Rue for that matter...

But, hey....bark, bark, bark. I do like my comfy bed on the porch. Here comes the Postman...oh boy!

You want me to start a thread on Syria. Really? Lol.

[DogOnPorch]

You want me to start a thread on Syria. Really? Lol.

No I don't. We already have one. A Syrian jet, today, decided to let loose on Lebanon. You could always express your objection in that particular thread. A real slaughter is going on just up the road...as mentioned...more dead than all the Arab-Israeli wars combined. But, Hudson should be along soon to start a thread about Israeli jets attacking Hamas members shooting rockets...the nerve of those guys...firing back.

[Hudson Jones]

This is true, but not in the way you are implying - and it has already been addressed.

The "behavior being displayed" is to use the apology to falsely accuse Israel of admitting guilt/responsibility for the deaths on the flotilla, as is the compensation. Not true. Again. Israel apologized for any action that MAY have contributed to the deaths - and compensation is no more an admission of guilt over the deaths than settling out of court is an admission of guilt.

While this behavior is 'parr for the course,' I still can't help but find it "quite odd."

Newsflash: Israel has apologized for its role and is paying compensation to the victims' families. That, to any person who is not trying to play your silly games, is an admission of responsibility.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[Shady]

Newsflash: Israel has apologized for its role and is paying compensation to the victims' families. That, to any person who is not trying to play your silly games, is an admission of responsibility.

In your opinion, when will Turkey apologize and provide compensation for the Armenian genocide?

[Guest American Woman]

Newsflash: Israel has apologized for its role and is paying compensation to the victims' families. That, to any person who is not trying to play your silly games, is an admission of responsibility.

Newsflash. Oh, wait - it isn't. I've repeated it countless times now. So here we go again. The apology was for any action on Israel's part that may have contributed to the deaths; and compensation, again, is not an admission of guilt any more than an out of court settlement is an admission of guilt. Furthermore, just because those on the flotilla have not had anything to say, just because they are being given a pass for their actions, doesn't absolve them of any part that they may have played regarding the deaths. Any person with an ability to comprehend the issue who is not "trying to play your [blame game]" understands that Israel did not admit to being guilty of the deaths.

[The_Squid]

The "behavior being displayed" is to use the apology to falsely accuse Israel of admitting guilt/responsibility

Governments don't apologize for things that they are not responsible for... clearly making an apology is an admission of some culpability/responsibility/guilt for whatever one is apologizing for!

especially when the government also "compensates the victims".

Edited April 4, 2013 by The_Squid

[Rue]

No I don't. We already have one. A Syrian jet, today, decided to let loose on Lebanon. You could always express your objection in that particular thread. A real slaughter is going on just up the road...as mentioned...more dead than all the Arab-Israeli wars combined. But, Hudson should be along soon to start a thread about Israeli jets attacking Hamas members shooting rockets...the nerve of those guys...firing back.

I got yer point. I am exasperated too.

[Guest American Woman]

Governments don't apologize for things that they are not responsible for... clearly making an apology is an admission of some culpability/responsibility/guilt for whatever one is apologizing for!

especially when the government also "compensates the victims".

Oh, please. It was, as Hudson Jones initially said, "political." Governments do all sorts of things for political reasons, and in that vein, the apology was clearly, I'm sure quite purposely, not an "admission of guilt for the deaths." "An admission of some culpability/responsibility/guilt for whatever one is apologizing for" is quite different from an admission of guilt for the deaths! Which is what Hudson Jones is saying it is. Which it is not. For the bajillionth time now.

[Guest American Woman]

I got yer point. I am exasperated too.

Same here. Yet I have as much perseverance as Hudson Jones et al does.

[Hudson Jones]

Newsflash. Oh, wait - it isn't. I've repeated it countless times now. So here we go again. The apology was for any action on Israel's part that may have contributed to the deaths;

What do you mean "may" have?

They shot and killed. Don't be ridiculous. You can leave the court mumble jumble with the politicians. Can you inject some truth and reality into your rhetoric?

Israel entered a boat in international water and assassinated people.

"May" have. Grow up and stop playing these games.

UN Report on what took place on the Mavi Marmara

link to un.org

Netanyahu “Operational Mistakes”

The findings of external examinations carried out on the bodies of the deceased were summarized as follows:

Body no. 1: Bullet wounds: two in the abdomen-chest on the left side, one tangential wound on the left side of the abdomen, on the back from the right, on the right elbow, in the right arm, on the left hand, two on the left thigh. Superficial lacerations on the face, abrasions and scratches.

Body no. 2: Bullet wounds: on the right side of the head, on the right side of the back of the neck, on the right cheek, underneath the chin, on the right side of the back, on the left thigh. A bullet was palpated on the left side of the chest. Abrasion on the right arm.

Body no. 3: Bullet wound on the right side of the back of the neck, two bullet wounds on the right side of the back of the neck, a bullet wound on the right side of the abdomen, a bullet wound on the right side of the lower back, a bullet wound on the left back-buttock.

Body no. 4: Bullet wounds: on the left breast, the left buttock, the right shoulder, the right thigh, the right calf, two in the left thigh. Subcutaneous bleeding on the right side of the forehead. Lacerations on the forehead. Variousadditional abrasions.

Body no. 5: Two bullet wounds in the left shoulder, bullet wound in the right side of the chest, bullet wound in the right shoulder, bullet wound in the right thigh.

Body no. 6: Bullet wounds in the forehead and the back of the neck. Abrasion wounds on the right side of the forehead, the nose, the right knee.

Body no. 7: Bullet wounds on the left side of the chest,subcutaneous bleeding on the back,the left calf, and right elbow joint.

Body no. 8: Bullet wounds on the front of the right ear, bullet palpated under the skin of the torso on the left side, two bullet wounds on the right side of the back, bullet wound on the right buttock, various abrasions.

Body no. 9: Bullet wounds in the area of the right temple/back of neck, bullet wound in the left nipple, bullet wound in the area of the scalp-forehead on the left side, bullet wound on the face (nose), bulllet wound on the left torso, bullet wound on the right side of the back, two bullet wounds in the left thigh, two bullet wounds as aresult of the bullet passing through toes four and five on the left foot

"May" have.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[Guest American Woman]

What do you mean "may" have?

What do *I* mean "may have??" That's what ISRAEL said. As you claim they "admitted guilt for the deaths." Israel did no such thing, as you now seem to be recognizing.

They shot and killed. Don't be ridiculous. You can leave the court mumble jumble with the politicians. Can you inject some truth and reality into your rhetoric?

I absolutely can, as those are Israel's words. Which you are trying to make into some sort of "admission of guilt for the deaths." Now how about YOU trying to inject some truth and reality into your "rhetoric??"

"May" have. Grow up and stop playing these games.

YOU "Grow up and stop playing these games." Those are Israel's words - which you are trying to make into something they are not.

"May" have.

Yep. "May have." Hardly an admission of guilt. I think you may finally be beginning to get it.

Edited April 4, 2013 by American Woman

[Hudson Jones]

What do *I* mean "may have??" That's what ISRAEL said.

Yes. Yes. We may have contributed to the deaths.

[Shady]

Yes. Yes. We may have contributed to the deaths.

In your opinion, when will Turkey apologize for the Armenian genocide and provide compensation in a similar manner?