cybercoma Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 My primary "issue" with agnosticism is that it's generally used as a middle ground fallacy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 (edited) Then you are saying that people who are convinced that god does not exist are misnamed because they are not 'without' belief - they believe in a negative which cannot be proven. I'm saying they don't believe in god either, since they believe god doesn't exist.... why or how would they even believe in him? Edited February 11, 2013 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 I'm saying they don't believe in god either, since they believe god doesn't exist.... why or how would they even believe in him?The existence of god cannot be proven or disproven. Anyone who takes a position on one side or the other is taking a leap of faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 (edited) No. Anyone who claims the existence of something that's not proven is making a giant leap. Anyone who doesn't believe it until it's proven is taking the default position that anyone takes on this kind of claim. The positions are not even remotely equivalent. Edited February 11, 2013 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 No. Anyone who claims the existence of something that's not proven is making a giant leap. Anyone who doesn't believe it until it's proven is taking the default position that anyone takes on this kind of claim.No. That is not the default position when it comes to metaphysics. The default position is to have no opinion on the existence of god. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 No. That is not the default position when it comes to metaphysics. The default position is to have no opinion on the existence of god. To make it explicit for you, the burden of proof does not lie with someone proving that God doesn't exist. The burden of proof lies with the people claiming that God does exist. Since there is absolutely no evidence that God exists, it is reasonable to conclude that He doesn't. Metaphysics or not, if you don't have an opinion on the existence of God then it follows that you don't believe in God. In other words, you're an atheist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 The existence of god cannot be proven or disproven. Anyone who takes a position on one side or the other is taking a leap of faith. The problem with your argument is that the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. It is not rational to think otherwise. There are those who claim Bigfoot exists. It is up to them to provide evidence, not the other way around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 There's no middle ground about belief. You either believe in something or you don't. It's your belief. You decide. There's no sitting on the fence. Believing in something or not has nothing to do with claiming whether or not something exists. Those are two different questions. Does God exist? Do you believe in God? The problem with what you're arguing is that it conflates the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 Metaphysics or not, if you don't have an opinion on the existence of God then it follows that you don't believe in God. In other words, you're an atheist.No. Not having an opinion is different from the "belief" that god does not exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 Does God exist? Do you believe in God?They are both the same question since we are discussing a metaphysical entity that exists outside of the physical realm. You are insisting that if a being that exists outside the physical realm cannot be shown to exist in the physical realm that it must not exist. This is a leap of faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 The default position is to have no opinion on the existence of god. I don't believe doubt that'll be enough to keep the theists off your back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 If God purely existed outside the physical realm, then he could not be an intercessory power and therefore would not be omnipotent, nor would prayer matter. You're not describing a God that the majority of people believe in. Moreover, it would be utterly irrelevant if the God that you describe exists or not because not only would it not be able to affect people's lives (existing purely outside the physical realm and all), but it would not be observable in any manner whatsoever. Thus, believing in that God or not would be completely irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 They are both the same question since we are discussing a metaphysical entity that exists outside of the physical realm. No they are not the same question. Did you not read the questions??? Clearly they are two different questions. You are insisting that if a being that exists outside the physical realm cannot be shown to exist in the physical realm that it must not exist. This is a leap of faith. Then at least show us that a realm outside the physical realm exists... that must be possible, correct? Otherwise, I do not believe in your otherworldly realm where gods (God?), unicorns or whatever else might exist. I did not say that it does not exist... I said that I do not believe in its existance. See how they are different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 Then at least show us that a realm outside the physical realm exists.Why? You have clearly decided to believe that god does not exist. I have no need or desire to try and change your beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 He said with zeal and conscientious devotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 Why? Because you claim that it exists. You have clearly decided to believe that god does not exist. I have no need or desire to try and change your beliefs. Like I said a few posts ago, I do not believe in the supernatural until I am shown some evidence of its existence. Seems pretty reasonable and rational, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 Because you claim that it exists.Do I? I don't recall making any such assertion.Like I said a few posts ago, I do not believe in the supernatural until I am shown some evidence of its existence. Seems pretty reasonable and rational, no?Was it reasonable for Lord Kelvin to insist that heavier than air flight was impossible? I would say no. A rational person acknowledges the limits of knowledge and would not insist that something does not or could not exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 Was it reasonable for Lord Kelvin to insist that heavier than air flight was impossible? I would say no. A rational person acknowledges the limits of knowledge and would not insist that something does not or could not exist. That's a matter of physics, not mythical beings that live in the sky realm.... there is a bit of difference. And even if there were no difference, one has evidence that it can happen, the other does not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 That's a matter of physics, not mythical beings that live in the sky realm.... there is a bit of difference.It is a simple matter of physics today. Not when Kelvin made the statement. To Kelvin suggesting that heavier than air flight was possible was a kin to believing in mythical sky beings. The reality is you claim that you are simply looking for evidence but I don't believe you - it is a logical construct that you have created to rationalize your beliefs and if evidence was actually presented I suspect you would deny it or move the goal posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted February 12, 2013 Report Share Posted February 12, 2013 Have you seen evidence for gods or realm where these gods exist? Why not share it with us? Test your hypothesis that I am lying by providing the evidence and see what I say.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted February 12, 2013 Report Share Posted February 12, 2013 Was it reasonable for Lord Kelvin to insist that heavier than air flight was impossible? I would say no. A rational person acknowledges the limits of knowledge and would not insist that something does not or could not exist. red herring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted February 12, 2013 Report Share Posted February 12, 2013 It is a simple matter of physics today. Not when Kelvin made the statement. To Kelvin suggesting that heavier than air flight was possible was a kin to believing in mythical sky beings. Not really, Kelvin had the disproof of his statement before his eyes his whole life: birds are heavier than air, as I'm sure many people at the time were well aware. Totally irrelevant anyway. The fact remains that there is no reason to suppose that something exists unless there is some evidence for its existence. Not having seen any such evidence, atheists have no reason to believe that god(s) exit. That's all atheism is. Honestly, I'm a bit disappointed TimG. I did not take you for a pro-religious propagandist, and at its root that is all that the whole "atheism is a religion!" bandwagon is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleipnir Posted February 12, 2013 Report Share Posted February 12, 2013 It's not censored. Then why am I seeing the word as #$#^$#^ ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiddleClassCentrist Posted February 12, 2013 Report Share Posted February 12, 2013 Then why am I seeing the word as #$#^$#^ ? Was someone being witty? Atheism with a belief structure is possible as evidenced by the beliefs and values that go very closely with atheism. For instance, the importance of conclusive evidence over feelings and faith, and the need to feel control over one's own existence over being part of a greater plan (fate) But, to be an Atheist does not mean you are "religiously" atheist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckistani Posted February 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2013 Was someone being witty? Atheism with a belief structure is possible as evidenced by the beliefs and values that go very closely with atheism. For instance, the importance of conclusive evidence over feelings and faith, and the need to feel control over one's own existence over being part of a greater plan (fate) But, to be an Atheist does not mean you are "religiously" atheist. Actually the theists are often very big on free will. Look at Betsy. Meanwhile materialist, agnostic, science is showing us the limits for free will. Theists praying is part of the need to feel control over events outside of one's control, and a lot of atheists get tested in foxholes, as the saying goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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