Should Canada Annex the Turks and Caicos Islands?

[Guest American Woman]

Amenities. You can relax in the sun but still live a life of shopping and eating out.

I can understand that. I didn't realize just how small they are and how little they have to offer in that regard in comparison to what one wintering there would be accustomed to.

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I question just how 'like Canada' the islands would become, too, since they would be their own province and the Canadian government couldn't just move in and overhaul it. A lot of those decisions would be provincial, I would think. And healthcare would be, too. So where would the money come from to build heath facilities - and how would Canadians who are just living there for the winter receive out-of-province services that one must wait for when they move from province to province? And how would the locals feel if Canada just moved in and completely changed it - making it a winter playground for the Canadian masses? I just don't see the locals taking kindly to that.

[Newfoundlander]

Labour laws make a difference because they will need to follow Canada's that could become more expensive.

[Bonam]

I dunno why someone would wanna vacation in some hot humid hellhole when they could be out in the majestic snowy mountains skiing anyway ;p

[PIK]

Yes we should and by military force if we have to.

[PIK]

I can understand that. I didn't realize just how small they are and how little they have to offer in that regard in comparison to what one wintering there would be accustomed to.

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I question just how 'like Canada' the islands would become, too, since they would be their own province and the Canadian government couldn't just move in and overhaul it. A lot of those decisions would be provincial, I would think. And healthcare would be, too. So where would the money come from to build heath facilities - and how would Canadians who are just living there for the winter receive out-of-province services that one must wait for when they move from province to province? And how would the locals feel if Canada just moved in and completely changed it - making it a winter playground for the Canadian masses? I just don't see the locals taking kindly to that.

If it was being invade by americans ,then I could see the locals being unhappy. Wait till america gets her hands cuba again.

[Guest American Woman]

If it was being invade by americans ,then I could see the locals being unhappy.

But of course they'd be more than happy to be invaded by Canadians.

Wait till america gets her hands cuba again.

Wait till Cubans get tips from Americans again. It'll be a happy day for them.

[guyser]

Wait till Cubans get tips from Americans again. It'll be a happy day for them.

Well, they would like more people who give tips for sure, but the money they get now is the same value , although more readily accepted greenbacks are the preferred norm.

Wait until the US does lift an embargo with Cuba, lots of land claims will surface . Even though CDN companies have had a head start I suspect years of legal turmoil will ensue.

[Guest American Woman]

Well, they would like more people who give tips for sure, but the money they get now is the same value , although more readily accepted greenbacks are the preferred norm.

I was referring to the amount of the tips, not the currency.

Wait until the US does lift an embargo with Cuba, lots of land claims will surface . Even though CDN companies have had a head start I suspect years of legal turmoil will ensue.

Why would there be land claims? - and what would they have to do with Canadian companies?

[guyser]

I was referring to the amount of the tips, not the currency.

I know, there was two way of reading that.

Why would there be land claims? - and what would they have to do with Canadian companies?

Castro confiscated land and companies , many of the owners of same fled to S Florida. I would think when and if democracy comes to Cuba they will seek those lands for themselves.

Canadian companies have a small to medium network of companies operating down there. From cigar companies to tourism

The hotels that exist may sit on land that may well in fact be previously owned American or emigre Cubans. Now a Canuck may own it. If true, I would be worried about losing it.

Edited February 12, 2013 by guyser

[Guest American Woman]

Castro confiscated land and companies , many of the owners of same fled to S Florida. I would think when and if democracy comes to Cuba they will seek those lands for themselves.

Canadian companies have a small to medium network of companies operating down there. From cigar companies to tourism

The hotels that exist may sit on land that may well in fact be previously owned American or emigre Cubans. Now a Canuck may own it. If true, I would be worried about losing it.

Hmmm. I suppose that's a very real possibility. I would think, though, that it would be impossible to go back in time and undo what Castro did. I think it's just one of those things; a misfortune that those who lost under Castro will have to live with. I don't think it's the future government's obligation to sort through it and make things right - especially as that would make things wrong for the present owners. They would, in effect, be having land that they purchased taken away from them, so how is that really any better?

[guyser]

Hmmm. I suppose that's a very real possibility. I would think, though, that it would be impossible to go back in time and undo what Castro did.

I dont think so. The world is full of disputed land claims, and in some cases gov'ts have ceded land over to another country. Imagine waking up in another country and not have left your bed.

Resolutions are always settled by cash or land. I dont see this one any different. It wont happen any time soon though.....soon being a couple of years. And if it does come that commies flee Cuba and democracy reigns , a huge part of settlement will be deciding who gets some land back or cash in lieu and then there is the millions of dollars in cash that was left behind.

Not sure if analagous, but closely resembling.....look at Germany/Swiss vs Jews and the confiscation of wealth, land companies and what not from the Jews during the war years.

The Swiss bankers paid billions of $$$ IIRC.

Add to that the high concentration of Cubans in S Miami, they have had years to plot a course for compensation. And they stayed local which foments and encourages that kind of talk.

Had they dissapated throughout the world, then maybe not but they didnt.

Edited February 12, 2013 by guyser

[Argus]

Hundreds of takeout restaurants, fine dining, outlet malls, amusement parks? Nope.

Most of us don't need 'hundreds of takeout restaurants'. And can get by without an amusement park next door. I'm sure that there'll be shopping and fine dining to please all tastes.

[Bonam]

Man people have the most boring ideas of vacations. Really? Just go somewhere warm with fine dining and shopping around? I can't picture anything more boring.

[expat voter]

Anything Canada annexes, Canada must be prepared to defend militarily. This principle, very literally, goes with the territory.

So maybe annexation of these islands could serve as an excuse to build up the Canadian military, at the expense of social programs.

This would fit in with the Harper agenda. It's been a long time since the Royal Canadian Navy has had aircraft carriers! Oh, to be a country with an aircraft carrier again! What a boost in self-esteem!

[Michael Hardner]

expat. That's a stretch. It already seems that annexing the islands would be too expensive, and anyway why would Canada need an aircraft carrier to defend it ?

[Signals.Cpl]

And who are we defending them from? The US? Cuba? Haiti?

[Argus]

expat. That's a stretch. It already seems that annexing the islands would be too expensive, and anyway why would Canada need an aircraft carrier to defend it ?

Expensive? This would actually be highly profitable. Just keeping tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of Canadians from spending their money abroad on vacations would save us a small fortune.

[Michael Hardner]

Expensive? This would actually be highly profitable. Just keeping tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of Canadians from spending their money abroad on vacations would save us a small fortune.

How so ? TimG posted this at the top of the thread:

Using federal transfers to the territories as a guide it would cost between 1 and 2 billion a year to maintain the territory. Current tax revenues in the T&C are about $200 million so that would not offset the transfer much. This does not include transition costs.

[Argus]

How so ? TimG posted this at the top of the thread:

TimG was basing his assessment on territories which are up north, far from food, roads and anything and everything else, including heating oil. Of course it costs a lot to maintain people up there! It costs a lot less when they're in the tropics! And current tax revenue there would explode if we started building resorts and big retirement buildings to house Canadians.

[Michael Hardner]

TimG was basing his assessment on territories which are up north, far from food, roads and anything and everything else, including heating oil. Of course it costs a lot to maintain people up there! It costs a lot less when they're in the tropics! And current tax revenue there would explode if we started building resorts and big retirement buildings to house Canadians.

Maybe TimG can tell us where he got his numbers from ? There wasn't a link in that post. TimG ?

It was a 5X spread, in any case, between revenues and outlays. That's a big spread.

[Peanutbutter]

I would like to have my Canadian money at par in a tropical location, that would be most agreeable.

I wouldn't want Canada to invade the country but if Turks signed an agreement where they would still have a local government but with all the benefits of a Canadian including citizenship. All those tourism dollars would be great.

[TimG]

Maybe TimG can tell us where he got his numbers from ? There wasn't a link in that post.

Federal transfers to territories from StatsCan. Yukon and Nunavut is have the same population as T&C and receive $600 million and $1.3 billion respectively. Not sure why Nunavut receives double the funding.

Budget numbers come from a news release on T&C government budget which mentioned revenues <$200 million/year.

It is possible that a tropical territory will require less funding, OTOH, Nunavat has a per capita GDP of 58,452 vs T&C at 12,000 which is a huge gap which would have to be closed with transfer payments.

Edited February 14, 2013 by TimG

[waldo]

Maybe TimG can tell us where he got his numbers from ? There wasn't a link in that post. TimG ?

It was a 5X spread, in any case, between revenues and outlays. That's a big spread.

that $200 million a year tourism revenue reference reflected upon a typical year... but even then the TCI was not self-sustaining and received EU funding supplements. That typical $200 million a year revenue rate went down to $120 million during the global economic downturn (coupled with hurricane 'Ike' impacts); again, reinforcing the absolute dependency of TCI on tourism.

I haven't been for a few years, well before the recent global economic downturn that truly highlighted the TCI dependency on tourism. The TCI hasn't been self-sustaining; the EU has been providing monetary support to TCI with direct grants financed from European Development Funds. These EU grants were stopped in 2009 in conjunction with the UK suspending the TCI Constitution - due to the financial crisis attributed to the downturn in tourism (as well as fiscal mismanagement). That downturn in tourism was partly due to the global economic downturn; however, it also reflected directly on the devastating damage from the 2008 hurricane, 'Ike'. The 2011 EU assessment report, in consideration of renewing funding, states that the hurricane damage remains to be repaired (infrastructure, housing, schools, government buildings, etc.). I might look towards an island outside the hurricane zone - perhaps uncle Chavez might consider one of islands off the northeast coast of Venezuela!

[Argus]

that $200 million a year tourism revenue reference reflected upon a typical year... but even then the TCI was not self-sustaining and received EU funding supplements. That typical $200 million a year revenue rate went down to $120 million during the global economic downturn (coupled with hurricane 'Ike' impacts); again, reinforcing the absolute dependency of TCI on tourism.

Three million Canadians go to Florida every year. I imagine that many would go to TCI if it was a part of Canada, so that revenue would be greatly increased.In addition, a lot of Canadians would be retiring there, which would enormously increase local tax revenue. I imagine the population would expand exponentially

Edited February 15, 2013 by Argus

[shortlived]

money will just go from one place to another... however it should be recognized the GDP is about perhas 250 million while government expenditures are about 450 million. Obviously some cost savings would be created. Essentially the government spends about $10,000 per person, while the PPP per capita is about $10,000... obviously the question would simply be can 50 million of new income be generated and 150 million of costs reduced? or something like that? The real barrier is that americans fuel corruption and money laundering there and amount to 75% of the tourism there. More or less the US will loose and Canada will win from it so the US will prevent it from happening. Afterall the use US dollars not british pounds. Take a look at thefinancial services sector there, who it services, and who makes money from it. Note their revenues exceed their expenditures meaning they can run a surplus.. With some efficiency savings ontop of that they would likely benefit from it. While Canada would have to average out service provision for an additional 45,000 people, however their income level is such they would not greatly contribute on a basis of income, but territorially as well as on a business and banking sector side of things Canada would benefit. The real problem is the Monroe doctrine.

Edited February 15, 2013 by shortlived