COLUMBINE

[betsy]

The reason he did this seem to fly over the heads of many. The name is a contradiction in a sense in how some killers get the celebrity status under the title of 'infamous'. Monroe was famous as an actress , Manson infamous for murder. Both have spent time in the spotlight.

He is pointing to a problem within the Christian American culture in how idolization is not a Christian virtue, and yet idolization is a major part of Christianity (and most other major religions). Jesus is idolized, God is idolized, Christian rockers are idolized.

Warner had his own schism with Christianity, and it manifested in the music and stage performances.

Re-read your statement again.....your defense of him is all garbled. You don't make any sense.

the Christian American culture in how idolization is not a Christian virtue, and yet idolization is a major part of Christianity (and most other major religions). Jesus is idolized, God is idolized,

Edited February 10, 2013 by betsy

[betsy]

To me the failure of looking for answers in things like musical tastes, or violent movies, or violent video games, or lack of religion, when it comes to killers like Harris, is that it starts with the presupposition that dangerous psychopaths like him think and react to things the same way you do. People like Manson and Moore and so many others tried to see parts of themselves in Harris and Klebold and looked for answers that way, along with solutions that they feel would worked for themselves if they were similarly angry young men. The answers they found and solutions they proposed were completely wrong because Harris (and to a lesser extent Klebold) were nothing like (and had no desire to be anything like) Moore or Manson or you or I.

And we're back to the same old question.....

Back to the Biblical narrative of the first murder done by Cain to his brother Abel, why do others - like these monsters - have the seed of violence in them?

Edited February 10, 2013 by betsy

[waldo]

And we're back to the same old question.....

Back to the Biblical narrative of the first murder done by Cain to his brother Abel, why do others - like these monsters - have the seed of violence in them?

uhhh... obviously - the devil makes them do it... but it's gods will

[betsy]

Wayward Son

To me the failure of looking for answers in things like musical tastes, or violent movies, or violent video games, or lack of religion, when it comes to killers like Harris, is that it starts with the presupposition that dangerous psychopaths like him think and react to things the same way you do.

To me, it's not about lack of religion.....some mass murderers commit crimes because of religion!

Scott speaks about the Christian God. I'm talking about the CHRISTIAN GOD. Since the Christian God is the One and only true God, therefore everyone who don't believe in the Christian God .....is God-less.

Edited February 10, 2013 by betsy

[betsy]

uhhh... obviously - the devil makes them do it... but it's gods will

Free will. God's will.

Hebrew 3:8

Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Romans 9:18

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

John 12:40

“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and understand with their heart, and turn to me,

Exodus 9:12

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

Edited February 10, 2013 by betsy

[waldo]

uhhh... obviously - the devil makes them do it... but it's gods will

Free will. God's will.

yes, supposedly it was god's will that bestowed the 'gift' of free will... to allow the devil to make them do it?

wait now - if god is all-knowing, how can there be free will?

[betsy]

yes, supposedly it was god's will that bestowed the 'gift' of free will... to allow the devil to make them do it?

Think again. If you have free will, don't blame the devil. The devil will give you ideas, or tempt you....it's still your choice.

wait now - if god is all-knowing, how can there be free will?

How can there be not???? What is God all-knowing got to do with not having free will?

Edited February 10, 2013 by betsy

[cybercoma]

And why does he want Manson to be immortalized? He's doing more than what the media does. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black....and you swallow his garbled philosophy hook, line and sinker.

Charles Manson was immortalized well before Marilyn Manson started a band. Like I sarcastically said, "I'm sure everyone would have completely forgotten about Charles Manson if it wasn't for Marilyn Manson." The reason this is stupid is that Marilyn Manson chose to use the Charles Manson's name because he was already immortalized. Otherwise, his band/stage name would be meaningless. Manson was a pop-culture icon well before Marilyn Manson came along and will continue to be immortalized well after Marilyn Manson's career is gone.

[cybercoma]

Re-read your statement again.....your defense of him is all garbled. You don't make any sense.

the Christian American culture in how idolization is not a Christian virtue, and yet idolization is a major part of Christianity (and most other major religions). Jesus is idolized, God is idolized,

Let me shorten that so you can understand it.

Christians are hypocrites.

[Sleipnir]

Since the Christian God is the One and only true God, therefore everyone who don't believe in the Christian God .....is God-less.

The Christian god is only the true god in Christianity, different religions have different numbers and types of gods.

[betsy]

Charles Manson was immortalized well before Marilyn Manson started a band.

Like I said, we hardly hear about geriartric Charles anymore. The young generation today wouldn't even know who he is, but thanks to Marilyn Manson, they do now.

Edited February 10, 2013 by betsy

[betsy]

Let me shorten that so you can understand it.

Christians are hypocrites.

That means you didn't get the senselessness of that statement.

[betsy]

The Christian god is only the true god in Christianity, different religions have different numbers and types of gods.

Not all religion require the belief in a god!

To a Christian, the Christian God is the One and only true God, therefore all those who don't believe in Him are.....God-less.

Edited February 10, 2013 by betsy

[Sleipnir]

Not all religion require the belief in a god!

Examples?

[betsy]

Let me shorten that so you can understand it. Christians are hypocrites.

Let me quote Marilyn manson again from your article:

Marilyn Manson

A lot of people forget or never realize that I started my band as a criticism of these very issues of despair and hypocrisy. The name Marilyn Manson has never celebrated the sad fact that America puts killers on the cover of Time magazine, giving them as much notoriety as our favorite movie stars. From Jesse James to Charles Manson, the media, since their inception, have turned criminals into folk heroes.

He acknowledged that, "A lot of people forget or never realize that I started my band as a criticism of these very issues of despair and hypocrisy".....therefore, all this young impressionable minds that idolize him don't have any clue other than the fact that this popular rocker bears the name of Marilyn Monroe and Charles Manson - two popular icons of another era!

If he's going to be pointing fingers of accusation at media for giving notoriety and turning people like Charles Manson into folk heroes, he better make it his business to ensure that his young followers clearly understand that! To a clue-less teener (or anyone for that matter, including me) - in duh-mode -the name Marilyn Manson could well be interpreted as a glorification of those two icons!

And he better get to Wikipedia and make an important correction of this statement:

His stage name was formed from juxtaposing the names of two American cultural icons, namely actress Marilyn Monroe and multiple murder convict Charles Manson^[1] as a critical and, simultaneously, laudatory appraisal of America and its peculiar culture.^[2][3]

^{The last time I checked, laudatory means expressing praise and commendation! How can you be critical of something you're praising/commending at the same time? Therefore, he is an example of the hypocrisy he's talking about. And that makes anyone who agree with him a hypocrite too.}

Edited February 10, 2013 by betsy

[betsy]

betsy,

Not all religion require the belief in a god!

Sleipnir

Examples?

New Atheism.

Buddhism.

Scientology.

Edited February 10, 2013 by betsy

[Sleipnir]

New Atheism.

Buddhism.

Scientology.

1) New Atheism worship no god.

2) Buddhism has hundreds of gods, one of which being Shiva - goddess of creation and destruction.

3) Scientology god is Xenu from what I've heard.

[BubberMiley]

Only someone living without God could see themselves as naturally superior to God's fellow children.

[betsy]

1) New Atheism worship no god.

Yes. Thus, no god.

2) Buddhism has hundreds of gods, one of which being Shiva - goddess of creation and destruction.

Shiva.....that's Hindu.

3) Scientology god is Xenu from what I've heard.

Cite.

Edited February 10, 2013 by betsy

[Canuckistani]

1) New Atheism worship no god.

2) Buddhism has hundreds of gods, one of which being Shiva - goddess of creation and destruction.

3) Scientology god is Xenu from what I've heard.

You're wrong about Buddhism. Some Buddhist sects do have a multitude of Gods - Buddhism has a whole realm of Gods, in fact. None of them are the creator God, none really require worship. Pure Land Buddhism is as close as it comes - by constant mantra practice you can assure yourself re-birth in the Pure Land, which is like heaven. Still not enlightenment, and Amitabha Buddha runs the joint, but isn't really God. Again, he didn't create anything. He at one time was a being subject to rebirth, same as all of us, until he attained enlightenment. Never heard Shiva mentioned by Buddhists - that's a Hindu thing.

Atheism is not a religion. The only defining characterization of atheism is a belief that no God exists. That's not a religion. Essentially it's an anti-religion.

Edited February 10, 2013 by Canuckistani

[Canuckistani]

As for Christianity:

Christianity, as a theistic and proselytizing religion, tends to view atheism as heresy. According to the Book of Psalms14:1, "The fool hath said in his heart,¹ there is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." However, high rates of atheism have been found among self-identified Christians in the United States. For example, 10% of self-identified Protestants and 21% of self-identified Roman Catholics were found to be atheists in a HarrisInteractive survey from 2003^[3]

Edited February 10, 2013 by Canuckistani

[waldo]

wait now - if god is all-knowing, how can there be free will?

How can there be not???? What is God all-knowing got to do with not having free will?

oh my! You really need to up your game here... hasn't an all-knowing God pre-determined the universe? Do you believe... accept... causal relationship; i.e., cause & effect?

[GostHacked]

Re-read your statement again.....your defense of him is all garbled. You don't make any sense.

the Christian American culture in how idolization is not a Christian virtue, and yet idolization is a major part of Christianity (and most other major religions). Jesus is idolized, God is idolized,

This was Manson's take on Christianity. You have a problem with someone who can make an intelligent statement in which your worldview could be challenged.

You have not made sense in a long time. But kiss the hanging jesus that is above your door as you leave the house and covet the cross around your neck in the same fashion.

[cybercoma]

Let me quote Marilyn manson again from your article:

He acknowledged that, "A lot of people forget or never realize that I started my band as a criticism of these very issues of despair and hypocrisy".....therefore, all this young impressionable minds that idolize him don't have any clue other than the fact that this popular rocker bears the name of Marilyn Monroe and Charles Manson - two popular icons of another era!

If he's going to be pointing fingers of accusation at media for giving notoriety and turning people like Charles Manson into folk heroes, he better make it his business to ensure that his young followers clearly understand that! To a clue-less teener (or anyone for that matter, including me) - in duh-mode -the name Marilyn Manson could well be interpreted as a glorification of those two icons!

And he better get to Wikipedia and make an important correction of this statement:

^{The last time I checked, laudatory means expressing praise and commendation! How can you be critical of something you're praising/commending at the same time? Therefore, he is an example of the hypocrisy he's talking about. And that makes anyone who agree with him a hypocrite too.}

First you make the ludicrous statement that people would have no idea who Charles Manson was these days if it wasn't for Marilyn Manson (who never reached the popularity again that he had 15 years ago when the article was written). Then you post this utterly inane criticism that shows more about how much difficulty you have understanding arguments than it does about the arguments you're criticizing. For instance, Marilyn Manson is arguing that at the height of his popularity in the 90s "people forget or never realize." He's talking about people that criticized his music and band at the time. Yet, here you are responding 15 years later on your soapbox, criticizing his fans for forgetting or never realizing, when that's not at all what he was saying. You make the assumption (and you know what they say about assumptions) that its the "young impressionable minds that idolize him" who "don't have any clue."

Why do I keep responding to you? It's completely pointless. You never try to understand anyone else's positions. You never admit when you're wrong or have misunderstood something. And you're only interested in proselytizing, rather than having a discussion. I need to quit getting sucked into the vortex of your posts. Because it is a complete and total waste of time and I end up looking like an idiot for responding in earnest.

[cybercoma]

Atheism is not a religion. The only defining characterization of atheism is a belief that no God exists. That's not a religion. Essentially it's an anti-religion.

Why are we still misdefining atheism this way on the forum. Atheism is not a belief that God doesn't exist. It quite literally means "without belief".