Can a Jewish State be Democratic?

[TheNewTeddy]

Before I start I want to lay down some rules I ask - not demand - everyone accept.

1 - "How DARE you limit MY rights to FREE SPEECH with your rules"

A: I'm more concerned with a healthy debate than I am with your rights.

2 - "What are these rules?"

A: This is not a debate on anything outside of Israel. I don't want to hear about what other Arabs did in another time in another place, or, what Arabs in the west bank are doing, or, what a very small number of terrorists within Israel are doing. This is a debate on Israel and it's Jewishness

3 - "Well I'm going to post here JUST to stick it to you and ignore your rules!"

A: If you want to troll that is your business.

My question is: Can a Jewish State be a Democratic State?

My suggested answer is no. While I have no problem with a Democratic state, or a Jewish state, I do have a problem with people who pretend you can be both at the same time, because, I do not believe you can be both at the same time.

If Israel continues down it's current demographic path, it will be a majority non-jewish state. So what if these majority of voters want to un-jewishize it? Seems to be at odds with the idea of a democratic state in the first place, no?

I argue that Israel can only be as democratic as a state that is designed for only one-religion will allow. That is, after all, more democratic than most of it's neighbours - frankly ALL of it's neighbours, even after their revolutions have been or will be completed.

It still, however, leaves the problem that, like the PQ in Quebec, the idea of who the "people" are is skewed. The only difference is the PQ has never written their opinion of who is "nous" into the constitution while Israel has. Just as you or I or anyone else who is not "nous" could move to Quebec and live there and vote there and enjoy those freedoms, we could never be a 'true citizen' of Quebec, because we are not "nous" and the same is true for a Jewish Israel.

As a bonus, I've outlined the existing west bank barrier:

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?authuser=0&vps=2&hl=en&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=214668381355121949879.0004d349473069069f564

Where the Barrier is not yet finished, I've added in where it is planned to go. Where there are multiple levels, I've added in where it goes the 'furthest' in to the west bank, and ignored the 'closer' barrier segments. Where those 'furthest' segments are unconnected to the main barrier, I've also ignored those. In other words, this would be the border if the barrier is accepted as the border.

Note it leaves hundreds of thousands of Arabs on the Israel side. Hence why this debate is an important one to have.

[Signals.Cpl]

Before I start I want to lay down some rules I ask - not demand - everyone accept.

My question is: Can a Jewish State be a Democratic State?

Yes they can but it cannot be viewed as only an internal decision, its not like Israel could and will be a democracy no matter what.

My suggested answer is no. While I have no problem with a Democratic state, or a Jewish state, I do have a problem with people who pretend you can be both at the same time, because, I do not believe you can be both at the same time.

Why not? They don't need to be mutually exclusive.

If Israel continues down it's current demographic path, it will be a majority non-jewish state. So what if these majority of voters want to un-jewishize it? Seems to be at odds with the idea of a democratic state in the first place, no?

Why at odds? Democracy is majority rule and in this case if the majority wanted one thing or another they could get their wish.

I argue that Israel can only be as democratic as a state that is designed for only one-religion will allow. That is, after all, more democratic than most of it's neighbours - frankly ALL of it's neighbours, even after their revolutions have been or will be completed.

Do they burn down churches or mosques? The same could be applied to many other countries around the world which favour a particular religion or outright have one as a state religion and this does not and has not made them any more or less democratic.

It still, however, leaves the problem that, like the PQ in Quebec, the idea of who the "people" are is skewed. The only difference is the PQ has never written their opinion of who is "nous" into the constitution while Israel has. Just as you or I or anyone else who is not "nous" could move to Quebec and live there and vote there and enjoy those freedoms, we could never be a 'true citizen' of Quebec, because we are not "nous" and the same is true for a Jewish Israel.

Again this is not unique to Israel and only Israel it applies to many nations including our own as you pointed out, this does not mean we are undemocratic.

[Bonam]

Can a state be both Jewish and democratic? Yes, it can, so long as a democratic majority want it to be a Jewish state. Therefore, demographics are one of the important issues facing Israel, and Israeli governments do give thought to this issue, as they should.

You should also note that "Jewishness" is not just a matter of religion, in fact, many view it as more of an ethnicity than anything else. There is no contradiction or paradox in being an atheist Jew, for example.

[Guest American Woman]

If Israel continues down it's current demographic path, it will be a majority non-jewish state. So what if these majority of voters want to un-jewishize it? Seems to be at odds with the idea of a democratic state in the first place, no?

Being a democratic nation doesn't mean the majority always rules/get what it wants. Case in point - our nations. It's why we have laws protecting minorities. It's why we have laws protecting what we see as unalienable rights that cannot be changed by a mere majority vote.

Edited January 19, 2013 by American Woman

[Canuckistani]

Being a democratic nation doesn't mean the majority always rules/get what it wants. Case in point - our nations. It's why we have laws protecting minorities. It's why we have laws protecting what we see as unalienable rights that cannot be changed by a mere majority vote.

A, the two sided argument. Other supporters of Israel here pointed out that if the majority of Israelis want to keep it a Jewish state, that's democratic. Now we're told that no, it's still democratic if the minority wants it that way. In a true democratic state, the majority would give equal rights to majorities and minorities. Israel is therefore not a true democratic state. I can't conceive of a state that's both democratic and non-secular.

[Guest American Woman]

A, the two sided argument. Other supporters of Israel here pointed out that if the majority of Israelis want to keep it a Jewish state, that's democratic. Now we're told that no, it's still democratic if the minority wants it that way.

Sure it is - and I explained why, using our countries as examples.

In a true democratic state, the majority would give equal rights to majorities and minorities. Israel is therefore not a true democratic state.

So which Israeli minorities don't have the same rights as the Israeli majority?

I can't conceive of a state that's both democratic and non-secular.

But life isn't limited to what you can conceive of; as long as all Israeli citizens have the same rights, it's as democratic as our countries are. As I pointed out, out countries are not based on a simple 'majority rules,' and who can or cannot immigrate to our countries and become citizens is very much controlled by our governments.

[Canuckistani]

Thing is, especially if Israel annexes the West Bank and at some point non-Jews become the majority and vote to not have Israel a Jewish state, there's nothing the Jewish minority could do about it. If the non-Jewish majority decided to not give preference to Jewish immigrants, same deal. Hence, a Jewish state is not a democratic state. Or, alternatively, what does it mean to call Israel a Jewish state if the majority don't want it to be? In fact what does it mean now, if there are no preferences for Jews? Can't be done, can't be a full democracy and pick out one ethnicity or religion for special status.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Canuckistani

[Bonam]

Thing is, especially if Israel annexes the West Bank and at some point non-Jews become the majority...

Or it could *gasp* not annex the West Bank. You know, the same way it hasn't annexed it over the last 45 years.

[Canuckistani]

So what, all those settlements, which keep growing and growing, displacing the Palestinians would just remain status quo?

[bud]

the fact that one group of people receive a different treatment than others puts a tick mark in the undemocratic nation column.

look at the immigration rules for example; you have someone who calls themselves jewish, who has never been to israel and who has no family in israel being able to immigrate to israel instantly, because they're 'jewish'. then you have a palestinian living inside israel, who has married someone from outside of israel, like someone from the west bank, and yet they can't bring them into the country.

turkey, which has over a 90% muslim population, as opposed to turkey's 80% jewish population would be considered a more democratic country than israel. turkey does not ban non-muslim people from immigrating to it.

israel being a model of democracy is just another hallow slogan just like the slogan that its army is 'the most moral army in the world'.

Edited January 19, 2013 by bud

[Canuckistani]

look at the immigration rules for example; you have someone who calls themselves jewish, who has never been to israel and who has no family in israel being able to immigrate to israel instantly, because they're 'jewish'. then you have a palestinian living inside israel, who has married someone from outside of israel, like someone from the west bank, and yet they can't bring them into the country.

That doesn't seem to match up with the claim that all Israeli citizens have equal rights.

[bud]

a good article from an israeli:

Israel’s Fading Democracy

By AVRAHAM BURG

Israel arose as a secular, social democratic country inspired by Western European democracies. With time, however, its core values have become entirely different. Israel today is a religious, capitalist state. Its religiosity is defined by the most extreme Orthodox interpretations. Its capitalism has erased much of the social solidarity of the past, with the exception of a few remaining vestiges of a welfare state. Israel defines itself as a “Jewish and democratic state.” However, because Israel has never created a system of checks and balances between these two sources of authority, they are closer than ever to a terrible clash.

Link

[TheNewTeddy]

On Israel annexing the West Bank:

I specifically brought this up due to the possibility of a one-state solution. Polls taken of Palestinians (sadly, few and far between) show that a constant majority support a one state solution.

[Bonam]

I specifically brought this up due to the possibility of a one-state solution. Polls taken of Palestinians (sadly, few and far between) show that a constant majority support a one state solution.

Of course they do. Does that surprise you? Palestinians also want to kill Jews and polls would probably show considerable support for that, that doesn't mean that the "no Jew solution" is worth discussing.

[TheNewTeddy]

Palestinians want the wealth and, especially the free healthcare, provided by Israel. They are more interested in butter than guns when they have access to said butter. It's the economy, give them a strong country and they'll have "first world problems" to worry about.

One of the reasons a one-state solution has it's merits as well as significant difficulties.

[August1991]

The (Jewish) State of Israel defies the Enlightenment.

Why? It is the only civilized State in the Middle East.

Let me make this plain: If you are homosexual, you can live in Tel Aviv. You cannot live in Cairo.

-----

Maybe the writers of the US Constitution should go back to the negotiating room/blackboard; the writers of the French Constitution have done this several times; the writers of the British constitution consider this a daily task.

Edited January 20, 2013 by August1991

[TheNewTeddy]

Freedom and Democracy can, at times, be very different things.

I have no doubts that a Jewish state can be Free.

[jbg]

I argue that Israel can only be as democratic as a state that is designed for only one-religion will allow. That is, after all, more democratic than most of it's neighbours - frankly ALL of it's neighbours, even after their revolutions have been or will be completed.

I have no problem with some restrictions that allow Israel to maintain its Jewish character. After all the Catholic Church has special status in Canada, France and other countries. Ditto the Anglican Church in England.

The U.S. is non-sectarian as a result of a historical accident. I do not believe Israel should have to commit national suicide to make some purist happy.

[TheNewTeddy]

What special status does the Catholic Church have in Canada exactly?

[jbg]

What special status does the Catholic Church have in Canada exactly?

Funding for schools.

[Guest American Woman]

Freedom and Democracy can, at times, be very different things.

I have no doubts that a Jewish state can be Free.

It can also be a democratic state.

[dre]

Its possible for ISrael to be a democratic state as long as they dont attempt to manipulate demographics in order to achieve a certain outcome... For example deporting arabs in order to effect the outcome of elections, or only basing immigration policy on achieving a desired outcome of elections.

Of course maintaining military control of the occupied territories while not allowing people there to either vote or form their own national government also kinda shoots down any claims Israel is a democracy.

[GostHacked]

I would say that Israel is a theocratic state more than a democracy.

[DogOnPorch]

I would say that Israel is a theocratic state more than a democracy.

And you would be wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knesset

Edited January 21, 2013 by DogOnPorch

[TheNewTeddy]

I would say that Israel is a theocratic state more than a democracy.

The crux of my question is can a theocratic state be a democracy