Religion May Not Survive The Internet

[Guest Manny]

Holy Shamen dominated the understanding of the universe, but when the spoken word was established, the law needed to be spoken. When the written word was established, it allowed people to interpret the law for themselves and required consistency of rules, which worked against the shaman. Then the great religions rose, based on written rules but the printing press allowed dissent from "the word" - see Luther - and radio/television eventually came along challenging their dominance as the arbiter of morality. Lately, internet and mobile technologies have added an interactivity factor that they can't compete with.

They're not doing that well.

You must be kidding. This is so full of holes I'm not even going to try and address the points you've made.

[Mighty AC]

Manny, you mentioned that you turned to religion after experiencing a loss. You're intelligent and like to deal in facts, evidence and data in your posts; so, I am interested in how you formed your beliefs. If you are comfortable answering questions about them I am curious how you reconcile your nondenominational Christian side with your analytical or rational side? Did you dabble in religion prior to the loss, or did you consider yourself to be non-religious? Was your epistemological relativism born out of your move towards religion or is it position you held prior?

Again, I am just interested in the roots of belief and am only asking because you have already touched on the reason you reached out to religion. Feel free to ignore these questions.

[GostHacked]

I'm telling you, advancing technology will assure the the enduring presence of the Bible!

You are quite right, the bible will endure, but will it stay relevant?

[betsy]

You are quite right, the bible will endure, but will it stay relevant?

Could it have endured all these years - thousands of years - if it hadn't stayed relevant all these years?

With advanced technology that gives support to archeology, cosmology, etc. - the Bible will become more relevant than ever! There wouldn't be a big debate between science and religion if not for the Bible! The likes of Dawkins wouldn't be running and hiding!

So, there.

Edited January 29, 2013 by betsy

[GostHacked]

Could it have endured all these years - thousands of years - if it hadn't stayed relevant all these years?

So relevant they needed to revise it as your goto version of the Bible.. King James version correct? So relevant there are so many other different holy books out there. Just because I can find the bible in a nightstand in a hotel (well at least this was the case) does not mean it's relevant.

With advanced technology that gives support to archeology, cosmology, etc. - the Bible will become more relevant than ever! There wouldn't be a big debate between science and religion if not for the Bible! So, there.

You are right, if there was no bible we would just all be doing science without imaginary sky gods getting in the way of the pursuit of knowledge.

[Guest Manny]

Manny, you mentioned that you turned to religion after experiencing a loss. You're intelligent and like to deal in facts, evidence and data in your posts; so, I am interested in how you formed your beliefs. If you are comfortable answering questions about them I am curious how you reconcile your nondenominational Christian side with your analytical or rational side? Did you dabble in religion prior to the loss, or did you consider yourself to be non-religious? Was your epistemological relativism born out of your move towards religion or is it position you held prior?

Again, I am just interested in the roots of belief and am only asking because you have already touched on the reason you reached out to religion. Feel free to ignore these questions.

First of all thank you for the nice compliment.

I've written here before that I think belief is a force. Belief gives a person the confidence to rise to great challenges. For many people the biggest thing to be overcome is our own self doubt.

Take a look at what belief can do. It makes people do seemingly impossible things. Belief helped Ali beat Foreman. On the darker side, belief made the 9/11 terrorists able to do what they did. Clearly, belief is a weapon and one that can't be ignored or done away with, else we lose much of our (super) human strength.

Whether the belief is true or not is irrelevant. It's about action. The believer wants the end result, and belief is the vehicle. The same is true I think for human tragedy. We need a reason to keep on living, in spite of the pointless suffering that life throws at all of us inevitably, someday. For some people, belief is the mechanism to get back on your feet. Again, "true?" doesn't matter. Results matter.

There have been many times when I felt discouraged and doubted, rejected, dejected. Belief is the driving force to get the win.

You asked about me, so I have been a christian and an atheist, and now I don't know what to call it. I would say if it has to have a name, I am a supernatural scientist. I love science and learning about reality, and the deeper I go into it the more I realize the immense depth and wonder, and the illusion that makes it impossible to ever completely know reality. We can only say we "know" something within the confines of some boundary condition. Which is fine... as long as it works! And yet despite all our learning we still ask all the same questions Plato did, thousands of years ago.

[Guest Manny]

Like Manny says in the movie, before jumping out the window of the train, "It's all here, here..!" (points to his forehead).

[betsy]

So relevant they needed to revise it as your goto version of the Bible.. King James version correct? So relevant there are so many other different holy books out there. Just because I can find the bible in a nightstand in a hotel (well at least this was the case) does not mean it's relevant.

You are right, if there was no bible we would just all be doing science without imaginary sky gods getting in the way of the pursuit of knowledge.

I guess you just have to read my reply again....

Edited January 30, 2013 by betsy

[Sleipnir]

Could it have endured all these years - thousands of years - if it hadn't stayed relevant all these years?

The bible isn't 'thousands' of year old.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Sleipnir

[betsy]

The bible isn't even a 1,000 years old, let alone 2,000 years.

Okay I'll humor you. Cite.

Edited January 30, 2013 by betsy

[GostHacked]

I guess you just have to read my reply again....

Is it different from the plethora of posts/replies you have made so far in various threads? Are you trying to say something different this time? Because every time I read one of your replies, it's the same rehashed stuff from before. This is why I keep rehashing the stuff I post.

[Mighty AC]

First of all thank you for the nice compliment.

I've written here before that I think belief is a force. Belief gives a person the confidence to rise to great challenges. For many people the biggest thing to be overcome is our own self doubt.

...

Whether the belief is true or not is irrelevant. It's about action. The believer wants the end result, and belief is the vehicle. The same is true I think for human tragedy. We need a reason to keep on living, in spite of the pointless suffering that life throws at all of us inevitably, someday. For some people, belief is the mechanism to get back on your feet. Again, "true?" doesn't matter. Results matter.

There have been many times when I felt discouraged and doubted, rejected, dejected. Belief is the driving force to get the win.

Interesting and thanks for responding. Would you say that your position that truth is relative is important to your belief then? I sit closer to the absolutist end of the epistemological spectrum, thus for me truth or at least the quantity of evidence matters. Some people set their clocks ahead 20 minutes to get themselves moving faster in the morning. I'm the annoying guy who has to ask "how can that possibly work when you must know the clock is actually ahead?" Some might say time is only a human construct, but then to me time is just the label humans put on a factor that is here with or with out us.

I've said that I think traditional religion will fade for a few reasons, the one I'm highlighting in this thread is that information and evidence contradicts most of the story traditional religion pedals. I don't think belief will fade though. Like TV audiences in a 500 channel world, I think believers will disperse and find a new story and crowd to fill the need to believe and belong. In my opinion, more and more will label themselves as atheist/agnostic but the holistic health/new age "the universe will provide" movement and fringe systems like Scientology and good ol' Paganism will pick up followers as well.

As someone already unable to identify with a traditional religion how do think the face of belief will change going forward?

[Guest Manny]

Would you say that your position that truth is relative is important to your belief then?

I don't think I would say that. We can believe in something where truth is not relevant. That doesn't mean, truth is relative.

It's in another dimension...

I sit closer to the absolutist end of the epistemological spectrum, thus for me truth or at least the quantity of evidence matters.

Interesting... interesting.

I've said that I think traditional religion will fade for a few reasons, the one I'm highlighting in this thread is that information and evidence contradicts most of the story traditional religion pedals. I don't think belief will fade though. Like TV audiences in a 500 channel world, I think believers will disperse and find a new story and crowd to fill the need to believe and belong. In my opinion, more and more will label themselves as atheist/agnostic but the holistic health/new age "the universe will provide" movement and fringe systems like Scientology and good ol' Paganism will pick up followers as well.

And the beat goes on. It may transform into other paradigms where people in a post modern world can relate to, but that is all. In my opinion it can no more disappear, than one side of my brain falls off...

As someone already unable to identify with a traditional religion how do think the face of belief will change going forward?

I don't un-identify with it. I'd rather be in a room full of traditional christians than a room full of atheists. They're just nicer people. I know where there code of ethics is coming from, and assuming they're sincere, I know they won't go out of their way to screw me. Atheism is not a system, so I wouldn't know what any of them are like.

Studying social trends is full of pitfalls, so I don't know. One day you think everything is going along fine, then BAM! 9/11 comes. Overnight, people's attitudes can change. I think it's all in our heads, the desire for logic, the desire for passion, or transcendence. It seeks expression through whatever medium is available to it.

[Bonam]

I don't un-identify with it. I'd rather be in a room full of traditional christians than a room full of atheists. They're just nicer people. I know where there code of ethics is coming from, and assuming they're sincere, I know they won't go out of their way to screw me. Atheism is not a system, so I wouldn't know what any of them are like.

It is of course your prerogative what kind of room full of people you'd rather be in, but in my experience, Christians have just as wide a spread of personalities and values as anyone else, with some good and nice, others not so much, and some indeed out to screw you. As for not knowing what the atheists are like... do you really want to make the claim that you know what individual Christians "are like" without any additional information about them besides them being Christian? Does that work for Muslims too? In most contexts, people would call such pre-judgement of individuals based on their religious affiliation to be religious discrimination.

[Guest Manny]

It is of course your prerogative what kind of room full of people you'd rather be in, but in my experience, Christians have just as wide a spread of personalities and values as anyone else, with some good and nice, others not so much, and some indeed out to screw you.

Sorry Johnny Canst Reid, like I said in my post,

and assuming they're sincere,

Which means, that they truly follow the beliefs of their religion. In Christianity those beliefs are grounded in concepts of love, mercy, compassion and forgiveness, they being the guiding principle for the preferred way to live.

Jesus Christ showed mercy to people, even to people who hurt him. He forgave people who sinned. And he got people to stop sinning. He showed them there was a way out. That's hope, for the otherwise hopeless.

People who study this religion devoutly have made a commitment to try to be guided by their christian principles. Atheists are by definition not committed to follow a particular guide or code of conduct. There's just nothin.

In most contexts, people would call such pre-judgement of individuals based on their religious affiliation to be religious discrimination.

You can do better than that, eh bonham. That smells like political correctness... whew

Good think you atheists don't have a belief or a unified group, so can't be discriminated against

[betsy]

However, children are now accessing information at a very young age and they are not yet cemented in their ways. In my opinion, this will undermine religious indoctrination efforts.

http://www.salon.com...e_the_internet/

Like I've said, the writer of that article should've done more research. The internet, and other hi-tech will be used to reach children! Furthermore, with other creative innovations/ideas now possible through advanced technology, Christian-based learning will be made even more appealing!

Jeremy Lin, Christian Leaders Back Bible-Based Game, Story Apps for Children

A mobile app studio in Los Angeles announced this week it is creating a series of Bible-based games and stories for children and has launched a crowd-sourced campaign to help fund the project. Well-known Christian leaders are supporting the campaign, including NBA star Jeremy Lin, LifeChurch.tv pastor Craig Groeschel, author of Crazy Love Francis Chan, Newsong Church pastor Dave Gibbons and nearly a dozen more featured on the campaign's Kickstarter page.

After experiencing the need firsthand for quality Christian apps directed at inspiring and entertaining kids, Emmy Award-winning creative director Jeff Matsuda and technology industry veteran Mike Su began the fundraising for their company, Deep Fried Manna. As the name implies, Deep Fried Manna seeks to create innovative and fun apps that teach biblical values by using games and stories.

"We as parents realized that when given a choice, our kids were increasingly choosing their iPads over traditional TV," explains Matsuda, the 42-year-old father of three, "yet there were so few apps out there that taught them about God."

To showcase the level of talent surrounding the project, Deep Fried Manna has already launched one free app for the iPhone and iPad called "Noah's Weather." Based on the Noah's Ark story, Noah's Weather delivers daily and extended forecasts with mini-games, a daily Bible verse and a six-page kid-friendly storybook.

In the coming months, Deep Fried Manna will be launching the first of several interactive storybooks based on two characters, Rex and Rooty. The debut story introduces Rex, "a bright young boy," who has a floating plant friend named Rooty. Rooty has the ability to generate seeds. Some seeds produce giant beanstalks, while others are tiny mustard seeds. Each adventure takes them to different lands where they encounter new friends, and the occasional scary enemy. These stories act as parables to teach children about having a personal relationship with God, the company said.

Read more at http://www.christian...XlxsHP0pxjv5.99

Christian game designers will be more likely to launch Christian-based RPG and other types of games for children.

Churches may "evolve" into something unlike the church that we know now, after all most Christians believe that building does not make the church. It is the people. Therefore, we don't really need a building.

Who knows, the church of the future may involve "conferencing" online - which will even see more "attendance" since you don't have to leave the comfort of your home.

YES! THE CHURCH WILL DEFINITELY SURVIVE THE INTERNET ....BECAUSE.... THE INTERNET WILL ACTUALLY SAVE THE CHURCH!

Edited February 2, 2013 by betsy

[kimmy]

Which means, that they truly follow the beliefs of their religion. In Christianity those beliefs are grounded in concepts of love, mercy, compassion and forgiveness, they being the guiding principle for the preferred way to live.

Jesus Christ showed mercy to people, even to people who hurt him. He forgave people who sinned. And he got people to stop sinning. He showed them there was a way out. That's hope, for the otherwise hopeless.

People who study this religion devoutly have made a commitment to try to be guided by their christian principles.

Sounds like the "No True Scotsman" story to me.

Atheists are by definition not committed to follow a particular guide or code of conduct. There's just nothin.

That's true. But many, probably most, atheists are also humanists.

You can do better than that, eh bonham. That smells like political correctness... whew

Good think you atheists don't have a belief or a unified group, so can't be discriminated against

Not true at all.

Like I've said, the writer of that article should've done more research. The internet, and other hi-tech will be used to reach children! Furthermore, with other creative innovations/ideas now possible through advanced technology, Christian-based learning will be made even more appealing!

(...)

Christian game designers will be more likely to launch Christian-based RPG and other types of games for children.

There have been Christian celebrities and Christian athletes and Christian musicians and Christian video games trying to reach younger people for a long time. It's not that Christians weren't aware of the possibility of using new media to reach young people before now, it's just that Christians aren't very good at it. The new Bible Beagle app isn't competing against Muslim Mouse and Atheist Armadillo. Bible Beagle is going to be competing against Angry Birds, and the Angry Birds are going to win.

-k

[The_Squid]

Religious games or apps will be downloaded by parents for their kids and they'll already be good Christian folk.... The rest of the kids will be playing Angry Birds, as Kimmy mentioned.

The number of teenage atheists is rising at a much faster rate than their parents, setting up what could be a potentially serious threat to organized religion, which is already struggling to regain momentum after years of declining attendance.

http://anglicanplanet.net/canadian-news/2009/4/30/teenage-atheism-on-the-rise.html

Religion is in decline. Canada is a generation behind the Nordic countries in terms of non-belief, but all signs point to the same sort of situation in the future. This is good.

[betsy]

Religious games or apps will be downloaded by parents for their kids and they'll already be good Christian folk.... The rest of the kids will be playing Angry Birds, as Kimmy mentioned.

http://anglicanplane...n-the-rise.html

Religion is in decline. Canada is a generation behind the Nordic countries in terms of non-belief, but all signs point to the same sort of situation in the future. This is good.

Nope, we don't have a lot of good quality Christian-based games.....we'll just have to wait and see.

Yes, parents download apps for their children....but children usually share their games with other children! Children will help spread the Word.

[betsy]

There have been Christian celebrities and Christian athletes and Christian musicians and Christian video games trying to reach younger people for a long time.

Christian celebrities are much bolder now in reaching out. The latest movie I saw was Tears of the Sun (about atrocities in Africa) with Bruce Willis. The movie invoked God numerous times....and the special features section also saw Bruce Willis (who incidentally was one of those who was strongly behind this project), bringing up God in the interview. Faith-based movies abound by A-List actors.. Denzel Washington for one (Book of Eli), Sandra Bullock (The Blind Side, Premonition (?)), Gerard Butler (the Machine Gun Preacher) based on a true story, Faster (can't recall the name of the actor) etc.., to name a few.

It's not that Christians weren't aware of the possibility of using new media to reach young people before now, it's just that Christians aren't very good at it.

Yes, Chrisrian-based children books and games were not high-quality.....but that's changing now. Some Christian picture books can now compete. The problem is the secularism in our society....a lot of secular bookstores carry limited titles of religious children's books for example. Hence, the internet actually helps the Christian books suppliers. You see tons of selections you buy through the internet. Book writers even self-publish and can compete online.

The new Bible Beagle app isn't competing against Muslim Mouse and Atheist Armadillo. Bible Beagle is going to be competing against Angry Birds, and the Angry Birds are going to win.

-k

I don't know if "competing" is the right word. Our Christian parents need tools to raise their kids as Christians. And speaking of "Angry Birds," that is quite a very appropriate description of a lot of new atheists - they are indeed always angry.

Angry Birds can have all the angry folks. Once they've spent up all their energies being angry....maybe they'll feel less troubled, and seek calm and peace in Christ.

Edited February 2, 2013 by betsy

[Mighty AC]

The religious are getting better at glitzing up the message. However, the point of the article is not that the internet is off limits to the faithful, the internet makes it impossible to hide evidence from those who are to be indoctrinated. These days education is not about memorizing and regurgitating facts and concepts, it is much more about higher order and critical thinking skills. Kids are taught to evaluate ideas, sources and evidence. Give these quizzical, skeptical youngsters access to endless information and the result is not going to be favourable for traditional religions.