US dead last in health care

[punked]

Yet it is good enough for many Canadians not wishing to take their chances in provincial wait lines. Why would people who have already paid CHA taxes want to travel to a foreign country for "health care that sucks" and pay even more?

Who was that person who had to get healthcare up in Canada? She was from the States but had to get Canadian Healthcare? Who was it? Oh yah Sarah Palin. Yep sometimes people get healthcare outside their country. What is your point?

Anyway I'll just pull up this AARP study to see you are full of Shit. Hum hum hum do do do oh here it is.

Myth #1: Canadians are flocking to the United States to get medical care.

How many times have you heard that Canadians, frustrated by long wait times and rationing where they live, come to the United States for medical care?

I don’t deny that some well-off people might come to the United States for medical care. If I needed a heart or lung transplant, there’s no place I’d rather have it done. But for the vast, vast majority of people, that’s not happening.

The most comprehensive study I’ve seen on this topic — it employed three different methodologies, all with solid rationales behind them — was published in the peer-reviewed journal Health Affairs......

In the previous year, 90 of those 18,000 Canadians had received care in the United States; only 20 of them, however, reported going to the United States expressively for the purpose of obtaining care.

Go figure. Good thing we stopped all your people from stealing our healthcare in the 90s though so we could treat our own though right. Damn mooching Americans.

http://www.nytimes.c...nted=all&src=pm

Edited January 13, 2013 by punked

[Guest American Woman]

Great you want to talk about "health" now ...

I was responding to a post about "health."

[punked]

I was responding to a post about "health."

So was I you are dead last in that category as well. Your system is broken.

Edited January 13, 2013 by punked

[Pliny]

I read the whole thread here and it is quite a typical discussion between Americans and Canadians regarding health care.

One or two posters have mentioned the fact that the thread title is not correct and that is true. The study is about health and not healthcare. The thread has been mainly about health care.

One of the things touched on by AW in her last few posts is that the US system is more malleable then the Canadian system and that is a huge advantage it has over the Canadian system, although that may change with the institution of Obamacare, which is not getting it right.

I don't think that Canadians realize how much they are paying for their health care either. The average Canadian family of 4 in Canada is probably paying as much in taxes towards health care as his American counterpart pays for insurance. The only argument Canadians have is accessibility.

In any respect, I think Americans get short shrift from other developed nations who smugly tout their socialized health care system as superior. Forces inside and outside the US are biased mainly arguing compassion and/or economics as a reason Americans should adopt a national heath care system, even in the midst of some European countries with increasing government liabilities to "entitlement" spending that threaten their sustainability. Not entirely unpredictable when it comes to government entitlement programs.

[Guest American Woman]

So was I you are dead last in that category as well. Your system is broken.

Yes, and I'm very impressed with your article from 1993. Just not impressed enough to waste my time reading or responding to it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Who was that person who had to get healthcare up in Canada? She was from the States but had to get Canadian Healthcare? Who was it? Oh yah Sarah Palin. Yep sometimes people get healthcare outside their country. What is your point?

My point is straightforward...why would seemingly logical Canadians who have already paid for their provincially financed health care through taxes decide to leave for a foreign country and pay far more for health care that "sucks" ? Since they are Canadian and much better educated and informed about the world than are Americans (claims made here at MLW), why would they even consider going to the "37th ranked" USA from "30th ranked" Canada?

Anyway I'll just pull up this AARP study to see you are full of Shit. Hum hum hum do do do oh here it is.

Your foul language only points to the true emotional direction and source of Canadian political obsession with universal health care, some (like you) believing it is a citizen's right when in fact it is not. You live in fear of creeping "American-style" health care even as many Canadians already enjoy the benefits of private insurance and providers compensated apart from the collectivists.

Canada is ranked 30th in the WHO report.....big deal...or does it means that it "sucks" just a teenie bit less?

Edited January 13, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[punked]

I don't think that Canadians realize how much they are paying for their health care either. The average Canadian family of 4 in Canada is probably paying as much in taxes towards health care as his American counterpart pays for insurance. The only argument Canadians have is accessibility.

Nope. The US pays around 17% or 8000 per person for their healthcare. Canada is closer to 12% or 4500 dollars per person. Those numbers don't add up. No wonder Conservatives hate Canadian healthcare they have no idea how much it costs.

[punked]

My point is straightforward...why would seemingly logical Canadians who have already paid for their provincially financed health care through taxes decide to leave for a foreign country and pay far more for health care that "sucks" ? Since they are Canadian and much better educated and informed about the world than are Americans (claims made here at MLW), why would they even consider going to the "37th ranked" USA from "30th ranked" Canada?

Now we quote a report that is 13 years old eh? In fact that report was so detested by Americans that WHO refuses to rank countries anymore because they know you guys are going to come in dead last and lets face it you are where the money comes from to write those reports. I don't know why someone would leave their country to get healthcare that sucks we will have to ask those 60,000 Americans who were getting healthcare from Ontario in the 90s before we closed the loop hole eh?

Your foul language only points to the true emotional direction and source of Canadian political obsession with universal health care, some (like you) believing it is a citizen's right when in fact it is not. You live in fear of creeping "American-style" health care even as many Canadians already enjoy the benefits of private insurance and providers compensated apart from the collectivists.

Canada is ranked 30th in the WHO report.....big deal...or does it means that it "sucks" just a teenie bit less?

Yep keep quoting that report that put you behind 36 - Costa Rica and 35 - Dominica while telling me how good your system is. Again we spend half as much as you guys that is life on a budget I guess.

[punked]

Yes, and I'm very impressed with your article from 1993. Just not impressed enough to waste my time reading or responding to it.

Yah you like that article about how Americans were stealing our healthcare in the 90s before we made it impossible for them? Can you believe it? Americans Fleeing Americas poor healthcare for the Canadian alternative until they were stopped?

[Canuckistani]

I don't think that Canadians realize how much they are paying for their health care either. The average Canadian family of 4 in Canada is probably paying as much in taxes towards health care as his American counterpart pays for insurance. The only argument Canadians have is accessibility.

Think again.

Health care costs in Canada 11.4% of GDP, Healthcare costs in the US 17.6% of GDP. http://www.oecd.org/...eCANADA2012.pdf

The U.S. spent almost twice as much as Canada, $7,290 US per capita, versus $3,895 US per capita in Canada.

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...ing-canada.html

From wiki:

Kaiser’s 2009 survey found that employer health insurance premiums were $13,375 for a family and $4824 for a single person...

About 60% of workers were receiving employer sponsored health insurance. Less than half (46%) of employees at small firms with 3 to 9 workers received coverage. As of 2008, the percentage of Americans receiving employer sponsored health insurance had declined for the eighth consecutive year, says the Kaiser Family Foundation.^[4]

From 1999 to 2009, Kaiser found that the insurance premiums had climbed 131% or 13.1% per year, and workers’ contribution toward paying that premium jumped 128% or 12.8% per year. In 1999, workers’ average contribution to the premium was $1543, and in 2009 it was $3515. For employers, their contribution was $4247 in 1999 and $9860 in 2009. ^[5]

The lower a families’ income is, the less likely that they can purchase health insurance, according to 2008 US Census figures. About 14.5% of households with $50,000 to $75000 in income did not have health insurance. While 24.5% of households with $25,000 or less income went without health insurance.

How much would wages be able to rise if employers did not have to pay those healthcare costs? Some US employer's tried to sue Canada under NAFTA claiming our healthcare system was an unfair subsidy.

And that doesn't take into account how much people in the US have to co-pay for insurance and treatment - many are forced into bankruptcy because of it. Also not considered are the number of people denied coverage because of a pre-existing condition. That doesn't happen in Canada.

Coverage Denied: How the Current Health Insurance System Leaves Millions Behind.

“Pre-Existing Conditions” Affect Millions of Americans

A large proportion of Americans have health conditions that insurance companies can qualify as “pre-existing conditions.”

A pre-existing condition is a medical condition that existed before someone applies for or enrolls in a new health insurance policy. It can be something as prevalent as heart disease – which affects one in three adults¹ – or something as life-changing as cancer, which affects 11 million Americans.²

But a pre-existing condition does not have to be a serious disease like cancer or heart disease. Even relatively minor conditions like hay fever, asthma, or previous sports injuries can trigger high premiums or denials of coverage.³

http://www.healthref...rage/index.html

Edited January 13, 2013 by Canuckistani

[bush_cheney2004]

Now we quote a report that is 13 years old eh? In fact that report was so detested by Americans that WHO refuses to rank countries anymore because they know you guys are going to come in dead last and lets face it you are where the money comes from to write those reports.

You can cherry pick any report you wish...I don't care. Obviously Canada ranks very low in such reports for many of very same reasons the U.S. does. The point is that anybody wishing to "improve" the U.S. health care system sure as hell wouldn't pick Canada's to emulate.

I don't know why someone would leave their country to get healthcare that sucks we will have to ask those 60,000 Americans who were getting healthcare from Ontario in the 90s before we closed the loop hole eh?

You are missing the point yet again....Americans leaving their country didn't already pay thousands in taxes for collectivist health care.

Yep keep quoting that report that put you behind 36 - Costa Rica and 35 - Dominica while telling me how good your system is. Again we spend half as much as you guys that is life on a budget I guess.

The report rankings were disputed then and are still disputed, while people make personal choices about their health care in and out of country. No matter how you twist it, Canada is no shining beacon for health care.

[punked]

You can cherry pick any report you wish...I don't care. Obviously Canada ranks very low in such reports for many of very same reasons the U.S. does. The point is that anybody wishing to "improve" the U.S. health care system sure as hell wouldn't pick Canada's to emulate.

I am not cherry picking anything. For spending half the amount you do while having to compete with you (because we share a boarder) and not having the economic scale you do we do quite well. Could be better though we can agree on that.

You are missing the point yet again....Americans leaving their country didn't already pay thousands in taxes for collectivist health care.

Yep Bunch of moochers to scared of their own countries health care that they fled it. I mean that is all I see. In huge numbers to in 1993 more Americans crossed the boarder for just Ontario then the Number of Canadians leave Canadian in one year to seek American Healthcare. That is just a fact. I mean I am sure there are reasons for that just as their are reasons for Canadians leaving Canada. You don't seem to care about those reason so I don't care about yours. Fact is Americans were fleeing your country for mine until we put a stop to it.

The report rankings were disputed then and are still disputed, while people make personal choices about their health care in and out of country. No matter how you twist it, Canada is no shining beacon for health care.

But its better then the States which is what we have been saying.

[Guest American Woman]

I don't think that Canadians realize how much they are paying for their health care either. The average Canadian family of 4 in Canada is probably paying as much in taxes towards health care as his American counterpart pays for insurance. The only argument Canadians have is accessibility.

I have a question that maybe you can help me understand: I see stats for the portion of Canada's GDP that goes towards healthcare, but the care is provincial - and varies from province to province - with some services not even available in all provinces, thus there's sometimes a need for private health insurance when traveling within Canada. Also, when moving from province to province, some provinces require a wait time, during which time private insurance must be purchased. And don't some provinces charge a monthly premium?

So since the service is provincial, how can there even be statistics for the GDP, since that would be federal? Provincial taxes go towards health care, do they not? With just a supplement from the federal?

-------------------------------------

As a side note, I keep reading that all Canadians have access to the same health care, but that can't be true since it varies from province to province, and they only share certain common features and standards.

[bush_cheney2004]

I am not cherry picking anything. For spending half the amount you do while having to compete with you (because we share a boarder) and not having the economic scale you do we do quite well. Could be better though we can agree on that.

If you consider a WHO ranking of #30 with rationed care to be doing quite well then I would expect no complaints from Canadians, but such complaining is very easy to find. Their only solace apparently comes from comparisons to the USA, as usual.

... Fact is Americans were fleeing your country for mine until we put a stop to it.

And yet more Canadians still emigrate to the USA....even though it has health care that "sucks". It's so bad, that Canadian PMs/MPs seek it out over health care in their own country.

But its better then the States which is what we have been saying.

Great...welcome to the SUCK CLUB.

[bush_cheney2004]

....As a side note, I keep reading that all Canadians have access to the same health care, but that can't be true since it varies from province to province, and they only share certain common features and standards.

Agreed...it is not true, as access and available services can vary widely from province to province. But don't say anything that would ruin the grand illusion.

[punked]

As a side note, I keep reading that all Canadians have access to the same health care, but that can't be true since it varies from province to province, and they only share certain common features and standards.

I'll just answer this question. Under our law no Province has to offer health care and until 1980 some didn't. However what happened was the Federal government offered to pay 50% (this has been cut to the bone) of a provinces healthcare costs if they met 5 requirements. One of the requirements is you offer the same level of care (with in reason) as all the other provinces. You don't get your Federal potion of health care unless you. This is why the Big insurance provinces (Quebec and Ontario) were the last ones on board.

[punked]

If you consider a WHO ranking of #30 with rationed care to be doing quite well then I would expect no complaints from Canadians, but such complaining is very easy to find. Their only solace apparently comes from comparisons to the USA, as usual.

Statement I don't agree with "rationed care". Putting it out there I don't accept your argument. I do however agree to have a ranking better then the US's while at the same time offering our healthcare at half the cost to be doing much better then you yes. I see now that you have lost the argument over who's system is better you want to expand to include the whole world. No thanks we will just agree we are doing better then you and leave that argument there.

And yet more Canadians still emigrate to the USA....even though it has health care that "sucks". It's so bad, that Canadian PMs/MPs seek it out over health care in their own country.

Yet it is so good we had to change our rules because of the flood of Americans into our boards. Even the Republican VP nominee had to flee within our boarders to get her health care. See look I can create stupid straw man arguments using the same logical faults because I have no argument to?

Great...welcome to the SUCK CLUB.

Great to be a member at half the cost. Feels so good saving all that money.

[waldo]

True...we've already established that other nations touted for "superior health care" have higher suicide rates (mental health), including Canada

interesting... I recall a thread outcome that categorically showed the U.S. suicide rate was greater than the Canadian rate. You know... that suicide related thread that ran around the same time as a "U.S. obesity epidemic" thread.

[punked]

Agreed...it is not true, as access and available services can vary widely from province to province. But don't say anything that would ruin the grand illusion.

A can't believe Churchill Mn population 800 can't offer the same services as Toronto. You have to be kidding me?

Edited January 13, 2013 by punked

[Bryan]

I don't think that Canadians realize how much they are paying for their health care either. The average Canadian family of 4 in Canada is probably paying as much in taxes towards health care as his American counterpart pays for insurance. The only argument Canadians have is accessibility.

Several people have already corrected you misconception regarding the cost of healthcare, but it bears pointing out that we also don't pay anywhere near as much in taxes anymore as is generally thought. Taxes have come down a lot in Canada in the last few years. The average Canadian's total tax load is within a percentage point of the average American's. Then they have to pay health insurance ON TOP of that.

[Bryan]

A can't believe Churchill Mn population 800 can't offer the same services as Toronto. You have to be kidding me?

Yes. This is the one serious problem we do have with our system; geography. With such a huge land mass, separated in chaotic ways by so much water (yet so sparsely populated), the logistics of delivering that care is very difficult.

That's the huge advantage the US has. A much higher population density on a smaller contiguous land mass makes for much more efficient delivery of services. They could easily implement our system in a way that would work even better. It would probably cost less too. They just need to get their heads out of their asses, stop fear mongering, and decide to do the right thing.

[bush_cheney2004]

Statement I don't agree with "rationed care". Putting it out there I don't accept your argument.

I don't care if you agree or not...clearly Canada's provinces are forced to ration care, culminating in long wait times to the point of political liability and web sites dedicated to counting the days to get a procedure completed (after waiting for a GP to open the locked gate). Canadians not wishing to patriotically suffer in que for God and Queen just cross the border and pay with their own dime. Provinces caught in a bind do the exact same thing...sending patients to American providers.

[bush_cheney2004]

....They could easily implement our system in a way that would work even better. It would probably cost less too. They just need to get their heads out of their asses, stop fear mongering, and decide to do the right thing.

Some Americans want to do just that...but they lost that political battle. Seems that collectivists don't fair as well in the USA as in Canada. The U.S. should never adopt Canada's single payer system, as it is one of the poorest performing and most expensive of such systems in the world. France has a much better public-private delivery system.

[Guest American Woman]

They could easily implement our system in a way that would work even better. It would probably cost less too. They just need to get their heads out of their asses, stop fear mongering, and decide to do the right thing.

Threads about U.S. health care are seldom actually about discussion, but more of an opportunity for the 'they should do what we do, and if they don't they're all kinds of stupid/scared/heads up their asses/et al' ilk to mouth off. We don't want to do what you do. In case it's truly escaped you, Canada ranks quite low among the nations that offer national health care. The fact that it ranks better than the U.S. - a country that doesn't even have national health care - doesn't make it a standard to strive for.

For those here that I respect, I apologize if that comes across as rude, but it's true. The idea that we are "fear mongering" or "have our heads up our asses" or aren't "doing the right thing" or are a nation of "poor health" compared to those who rank within a percentage point or two of us, or any other combinations of insults because we want to get it right rather than trade problem A for problem B (and that takes time) - ie: "do what Canada does" - is just too ironic, as Americans are always accused of being the ones who think the whole world should march to their drum.

Edited January 13, 2013 by American Woman

[punked]

I don't care if you agree or not...clearly Canada's provinces are forced to ration care, culminating in long wait times to the point of political liability and web sites dedicated to counting the days to get a procedure completed (after waiting for a GP to open the locked gate). Canadians not wishing to patriotically suffer in que for God and Queen just cross the border and pay with their own dime. Provinces caught in a bind do the exact same thing...sending patients to American providers.

I don't think sending/Canadians choosing to go the US for care at around .001% of the total population speaks to the whole population my self. Again care is NOT RATIONED. It is however prioritized in my country by need instead of income. Which is why we had to close our healthcare down to the United States citizens coming in because their care was rationed by income and more were coming here because of your rationed cared then visa versa. Says a lot for your logic doesn't it?