US dead last in health care

[bush_cheney2004]

Let's play the wait time game.....invented in Canada:

Ontario Wait Times

Wait Times for Surgery, MRIs and CTs

Follow the steps below to find wait times information by surgery type or diagnostic procedure. You can review your search results with your doctor to see if a referral to another health care centre is right for you.

1. Please select a type of surgery from the list below:

• 
  
  • Cardiac Surgery
    
  • General Surgery
    
  • Neurosurgery
    
  • Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery and Dentistry
    
  • Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery
    
  • Urologic Surgery (Kidney/Prostate/Bladder Surgery)
    
  • Diagnostic Scans
    

Note: The Canadians even use America's "911" format for emergencies.

Edited January 11, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[Canuckistani]

Actually the report shows up the poor state of American society as much as it does their healthcare. Some of the biggest reason for this poor mortality rate are societal more than healthcare:

The results surprised even the researchers. To their alarm, they said, they found a "strikingly consistent and pervasive" pattern of poorer health at all stages of life, from infancy to childhood to adolescence to young adulthood to middle and old age. Compared to people in other developed nations, Americans die far more often from injuries and homicides. We suffer more deaths from alcohol and other drugs, and endure some of the worst rates of heart disease, lung disease, obesity, and diabetes...

These disproportionate deaths especially affect young people. For three decades, Americans, particularly men, have had either the lowest or near the lowest likelihood of surviving to age 50. The most powerful reasons found for that were homicide, car accidents, other kinds of accidents, non-communicable diseases, and perinatal problems like low birth weight and premature birth, which contribute to high infant mortality.

Or maybe they're just a very clumsy people.

[Guest American Woman]

Oh sure ...I will get on that. As soon as I am shown where these facts were accredited.....

And I'll get right on that as soon as you explain to me why Canada would choose sending patients to the U.S. over providing the services/facilities in Canada if cost weren't an issue. If you think building more facilities in Canada wouldn't result in a greater expenditure of your GDP, I guess there's no point in even furthering this discussion.

By the way, the care is available here, just not as much

It's the "just not as much" part that I've been talking about ....

or its farther away.

Yes, because there's "not as much" - again, what I've been making reference to.

Same thing goes both ways, some new tecniques arent available in the US, so US Drs come here and learn.

That's not what I was speaking of at all -

Hospitals in border cities, including Detroit, are forging lucrative arrangements with Canadian health agencies to provide care not widely available across the border.

[guyser]

“I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics.”

That is a strawman.

Williams did not do his homework about his care .

[dre]

And I'll get right on that as soon as you explain to me why Canada would choose sending patients to the U.S. over providing the services/facilities in Canada if cost weren't an issue.

That has nothing to do with the topic being discussed though. Youre just derailing yet another thread.

The results surprised even the researchers. To their alarm, they said, they found a "strikingly consistent and pervasive" pattern of poorer health at all stages of life, from infancy to childhood to adolescence to young adulthood to middle and old age. Compared to people in other developed nations, Americans die far more often from injuries and homicides. We suffer more deaths from alcohol and other drugs, and endure some of the worst rates of heart disease, lung disease, obesity, and diabetes.

Do you have any opinions on the research in the OP?

Hospitals in border cities, including Detroit, are forging lucrative arrangements with Canadian health agencies to provide care not widely available across the border.

It sounds like Canada is subsidizing the US healthcare system... Interesting, but STILL off topic, and totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Edited January 11, 2013 by dre

[Guest American Woman]

Is exactly what you said. You said who wants to live to 120 if you have no freedoms. The only freedom under discussion is not being able to avoid paying taxes for govt provided healthcare.

Really? So when Americans speak of "individual's freedom" you think it's all about health care? For the record, it's not - so again, not what I was saying.

Edited January 11, 2013 by American Woman

[dre]

Really? So when Americans speak of "individual's freedom" you think it's all about health care? For the record, it's not - so again, not what I was saying.

So still no comment on this topic?

[segnosaur]

Wow. The US spends a much greater proportion of it's GDP on health care than any of the other 16 countries listed, but comes dead last in health. Not really getting value for their money. Going to a single payer system like ours would save them maybe 7% of GDP a year = 1 trillion a year. This would wipe out their annual deficit in one fell swoop, and they might even become healthier in the bargain.

... they found a "strikingly consistent and pervasive" pattern of poorer health at all stages of life, from infancy to childhood to adolescence to young adulthood to middle and old age. Compared to people in other developed nations, Americans die far more often from injuries and homicides. We suffer more deaths from alcohol and other drugs, and endure some of the worst rates of heart disease, lung disease, obesity, and diabetes.

• The highest rate of death by violence, by a stunning margin
  
• The highest rate of death by car accident, also dramatically so
  
• The highest chance that a child will die before age 5
  
• The second-highest rate of death by coronary heart disease
  
• The second-highest rate of death by lung disease
  
• The highest teen pregnancy rate
  
• The highest rate of women dying due to complications of pregnancy and childbirth
  

http://www.theatlant...ad-last/267045/

Looking through the article, I think the title of the thread 'US dead last in health care' may not be supported by the reference.

The article discusses health in general, not specifically health care. In fact, it covers risk factors that lead to poor health (and premature death) that have nothing at all to do with the type of service you'd get from a doctor or hospital, such as higher caloric intake by people in the U.S. (which could contribute to death by heart disease), city designs that encourage driving and discourage walking/biking (which would contribute to heart disease and lung disease) and fewer people wearing seat belts (which contributes to deaths from car accidents.) Regardless of the type of health care system they had, they would likely have more premature deaths due to those factors.

[guyser]

Ok, since you made the first assumption and then called you on it, I suppose it should be me explain first?..., but...we know you made yours first.

Anyhow, moving on.

And I'll get right on that as soon as you explain to me why Canada would choose sending patients to the U.S. over providing the services/facilities in Canada if cost weren't an issue.

I didnt say that.

Delivery of healthcare is not just dollars.

It also has to do with expertise, practice and economic viability. In other words there is no sense in having a hospital with amazing Docs eqmt and so on if it is in the middle of nowhere.

No sens having dr's get rusty because they are not practicing it. It is also why most of your better med facilities are in large cities or close to large urban centres. It makes economic sense

We send patients to the American hospitals because the cost of build and maintain that expertise here....as it slowly mothballs, is great.

The economic facts are it makes sense.

Edited January 11, 2013 by guyser

[Guest American Woman]

So still no comment on this topic?

I ignore you 99.9999% of the time for a reason - and I intend to continue doing so. The only reason I responded to you in this thread is because you ignorantly spoke for me. Please don't speak for me and I shall be able to continue to ignore you - which is just the way I like it. Thank you.

[bush_cheney2004]

.....We send patients to the American hospitals because the cost of build and maintain that expertise here....as it slowly mothballs, is great.

The economic facts are it makes sense.

So how do you reconcile this with claims of "American health care" being "dead last" ? Compared to no economically viable care in Canada?

[bush_cheney2004]

That is a strawman.

Williams did not do his homework about his care .

Wiliams and his Canadian doctors made the choice....just like many other Canadians not beholden to "CommieCare".

[Guest American Woman]

Ok, since you made the first assumption and then called you on it, I suppose it should be me explain first?...,

I made no "assumptions" - you yourself said "We do it because it is the best econmical [sic] way to get the treatment done." Then you contradicted yourself, saying the costs to provide the services would be so minimal as to not make a difference in Canada's health care spending.

No sens having dr's get rusty because they are not practicing it. It is also why most of your better med facilities are in large cities or close to large urban centres. It makes economic sense

Which means it saves Canada money - hence you spend a smaller portion of your GDP on health care - and one reason why we spend a greater portion on ours, since we have enough facilities in the U.S. - and you don't in Canada. You rely on ours. What would happen if you couldn't rely on ours? You'd either have worse statistics - or you'd be spending a greater portion of your GDP on health care. Just as I said.

And again. Why do your First Nations people have such a poor life expectancy? - Five to eight years lower than the average Canadian's?

We send patients to the American hospitals because the cost of build and maintain that expertise here....as it slowly mothballs, is great.

The economic facts are it makes sense.

Which allows Canada to spend a smaller proportion of it's GDP on health care - just as I said.

[guyser]

So how do you reconcile this with claims of "American health care" being "dead last" ? Compared to no economically viable care in Canada?

We both know that some great healthcare is available no matter what country someone lives in.

It needs not be reconciled. As for my opinion, dead last is a misnomer.

[guyser]

Wiliams and his Canadian doctors made the choice....just like many other Canadians not beholden to "CommieCare".

Except he didnt consult with his CDN Docs.

Let us not forget he also wanted a rest period and did so at his Miami condo.

[bush_cheney2004]

We both know that some great healthcare is available no matter what country someone lives in.

It needs not be reconciled. As for my opinion, dead last is a misnomer.

Well, as you can imagine even for a smart ass American like myself, it is a bit much to find such reports of "dead last" credible given the observed behaviour of Canadians and other nationals when it comes to purposely seeking care in the United States of America over what is available in their own country.

[bush_cheney2004]

Except he didnt consult with his CDN Docs.

Let us not forget he also wanted a rest period and did so at his Miami condo.

Why he had a condo in Miami is the subject of yet another "Canadians Flee for America" thread.

[guyser]

I made no "assumptions" - you yourself said "We do it because it is the best econmical [sic] way to get the treatment done." Then you contradicted yourself, saying the costs to provide the services would be so minimal as to not make a difference in Canada's health care spending.

Thats not a contradiction. Its economic sense.

For the odd procedure that has to be done in the US, and for various reasons, it is cheaper to send them and pay for them to be done stateside.

There are so few of them that the overall result should not skew the results of what the OPs link shows.

Which means it saves Canada money - hence you spend a smaller portion of your GDP on health care - and one reason why we spend a greater portion on ours, since we have enough facilities in the U.S. - and you don't in Canada.

Not sure here....

You rely on ours. What would happen if you couldn't rely on ours? You'd either have worse statistics - or you'd be spending a greater portion of your GDP on health care. Just as I said.

I dont think we rely on yours, we just utilize the market that exists, and is welcomed by those American hospitals to pay their bills if we want to get dramatic about it.

[Guest American Woman]

Well, as you can imagine even for a smart ass American like myself, it is a bit much to find such reports of "dead last" credible given the observed behaviour of Canadians and other nationals when it comes to purposely seeking care in the United States of America over what is available in their own country.

Report: Thousands fled Canada for health care in 2011

A Canadian study released Wednesday found that many provinces in our neighbor to the north have seen patients fleeing the country and opting for medical treatment in the United States.

The nonpartisan Fraser Institute reported that 46,159 Canadians sought medical treatment outside of Canada in 2011, as wait times increased 104% — more than double — compared with statistics from 1993.

Increases in the number of patients leaving Canada for treatment were seen in seven of the ten Canadian provinces: British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, and Newfoundland and Labrador.

“Some of these patients will have been sent out of country by the

public health

care system due to a lack of available resources or the fact that some procedures or equipment are not provided in their home jurisdiction,” the report concluded.

“Others will have chosen to leave Canada in response to concerns about quality … to avoid some of the adverse medical consequences of waiting for care such as worsening of their condition, poorer outcomes following treatment, disability, or death … or simply to avoid delay.

Edited January 11, 2013 by American Woman

[bud]

how do you explain the poor life expectancy of your First Nations people - between five and eight years shorter than the lifespan of the average Canadian?

this is not a healthcare issue. it's a problem with the system that is in place within their culture and with the government

And how about your high ratio of immigration - and the reality that they cannot have any health issues, or they are denied?

they can have health issues, however, if the health issue can either endanger the health and safety of canadians or if they medical condition might cause excessive demand on the health system, then they are denied.

you should try a little harder not to spread misinformation.

Edited January 11, 2013 by bud

[guyser]

Well, as you can imagine even for a smart ass American like myself, it is a bit much to find such reports of "dead last" credible

Credible yes, but boots on the ground valid...no. And there is a difference

given the observed behaviour of Canadians and other nationals when it comes to purposely seeking care in the United States of America over what is available in their own country.

Ok,. so what am I to say when 'Americans and other nationals when it comes to purposely seeking care in Canada over what is available in their own country.

[guyser]

Why he had a condo in Miami is the subject of yet another "Canadians Flee for America" thread.

He's just trying to lessen the foreclosure pain felt by so many down there. Canadian funny coloured money is warmly exchanged for greenbacks and accepted openly

[dre]

I ignore you 99.9999% of the time for a reason - and I intend to continue doing so. The only reason I responded to you in this thread is because you ignorantly spoke for me. Please don't speak for me and I shall be able to continue to ignore you - which is just the way I like it. Thank you.

So no opinion on the OP then?

[Guest American Woman]

Thats not a contradiction. Its economic sense.

It most definitely is a contradiction. You can't say you use our system because it makes more economical sense while denying that you would have to pay out a greater portion of your GDP for health care to provide said services in Canada. You also can't say your stats wouldn't change if you didn't use our services and didn't have the services in Canada.

For the odd procedure that has to be done in the US, and for various reasons, it is cheaper to send them and pay for them to be done stateside.

It's not quite so "odd" as you might think.

There are so few of them that the overall result should not skew the results of what the OPs link shows.

It shows nothing of the sort. As I said, it would be ludicrous to keep sending people to the U.S. if it would be just as economical to treat them in Canada - which you've already clearly admitted it wouldn't be.

Not sure here....

I dont think we rely on yours, we just utilize the market that exists, and is welcomed by those American hospitals to pay their bills if we want to get dramatic about it.

Yes, you do rely on ours. If you don't have the facilities/services, therefore send people to the U.S. rather than do what's necessary to provide said facilities/services in Canada, then you are relying on ours. How you can't think otherwise is difficult to understand.

Whether or not its welcomed by those American hospitals changes nothing that's been said.

Edited January 11, 2013 by American Woman

[bush_cheney2004]

He's just trying to lessen the foreclosure pain felt by so many down there. Canadian funny coloured money is warmly exchanged for greenbacks and accepted openly

I would hope so....the days of the Canadian Peso are long over.